424 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

lol

[KainD]

kin ya like tell me where? i might join that maself

 

Lol, I wouldn't be able to tell you all the details in depth, just ask google, you'll find everything you want to know. 

[Afro_Explosion]

How about no one wear skirts and it wont a gender issue.

[KainD]

How about no one wear skirts and it wont a gender issue.

 

Yeah but that restricts people that like to wear skirts. Better to allow everyone to wear them. 

[berelinde]

Man i feel great when i got my Kilt on an its blowing a gale, no tae mention sitting in the pub with ma legs wide tae the world, aye i kin fairly clear a space at the bar pretty fast a tell ya

Pics or it didn't happen!

 

You have to understand that I belong to a historical reenactment society, and I encounter a great number of men who do not know how to sit in a kilt. It's amusing... and sometimes disturbing... but it's all in good fun. 

 

In perfect seriousness, one of the things I have always liked about BioWare is that they (generally) do not commit the unpardonable gender sins. They don't have excessively sexualized armor for females while the male model is all covered up. The Chasind robes show just as much skin on the men as it does on the women, and I like that. That's one of the reasons that I'm so surprised female Hawke's walk/run animation was so idiotic. Why, when they went to such great pains to eradicate gender dimorphism elsewhere, would they show it here? It made no sense.

[Finnn62]

It seems society as a whole (both male and female) believes something that I don't understand or desire to understand about the role of male and female humans. Like I say, I'm perhaps a messed up, broken person, but I don't agree with society on the point of gender roles and hope they dissolve, someday. That said, most people I know seem content with them so I think I'm just out of my mind. I'm not saying women need to dress a certain way (i.e. more masculine), just that I don't think people need to shape their identity based on some notion of what is the manly/feminine thing to do. If I could change the way things were run to include greater equality I would, but I don't have that power. It belongs to the greater majority of people who are content to live with a status quo. And sure I "could" wear a skirt, technically, but there are many reasons I feel I "can't". My friends, family, and random passersby would ridicule me to no end. Honestly, I don't know if I'd even enjoy wearing skirts, but I wouldn't mind giving it a try if the world was a less judgemental place. I have scottish friend who can get away with wearing a kilt because of his heritage and the fact that he is a bearded man in a heavy metal band, but I don't think it'd work for me. Hypothetically, though, living in society where no on cared about whether you are stepping out of the norm would be a wonderful concept. I believe that would start with accepting people's individual differences regardless of whether it fits our preconceived ideas of what those differences "should" be, and raising new members of society in a neutral way (i.e. not implying that certain behaviours/styles of dress make them a "sissy" or "not a proper lady", etc.). I agree with those that have said gradual change by example (e.g. the male rail employee, as mentioned). Not sure you guys have seen the guy who dressed as Red Riding hood because his daughter wanted to be the Wolf, or the guy who wore a dress to support his son who desired to do the same. Anyways, I've ranted enough.

 

Maker help me, I need a drink. To the local pub, away!!!

[KainD]

Like I say, I'm perhaps a messed up, broken person.

 

I'm just gonna say - you are not, no one is. You are just you. 

[Nefla]

Yeah but that restricts people that like to wear skirts. Better to allow everyone to wear them. 

People like your theoretical daughter?

[KainD]

People like your theoretical daughter?

 

When it's allowed for everyone she'll be one of those people. 

[robertthebard]

I'm just going to leave this here because it seems to be way off topic, and then move on:

Rebelling against a system that one feels is restrictive by being restrictive against that system is just going to cause rebellion. I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic, unless the position is that everyone should walk run and act exactly the same, for fear of being mistaken for being male or female despite actually being one or the other, or both?

[Nefla]

When it's allowed for everyone she'll be one of those people. 

If everyone adopted your method of trying to change gender norms, all it would accomplish is making skirts a male only item. Also, severely restricting, controlling, and trying to force your child into your ideals usually results in the child rebelling in their adolescent and teen years and going in completely the opposite direction. Ex: parents who are extremely conservative and force their child into amish-like clothing, wont let them date or have friends that are "unsavory, etc...often end up with children who as soon as they can go out, try every kind of drug possible, get pregnant at a young age, turn to crime, etc...the pendulum swings the other way and the child wants to be nothing like their overbearing and unreasonable parent. A more effective tactic would be to just raise your child as if the world was already how you want it to be. Don't force gender restrictions on them, encourage them to like, wear, be whatever they want regardless of what society thinks they should be. Be supportive and encouraging, be an example they will want to live up to.

[KainD]

If everyone adopted your method of trying to change gender norms, all it would accomplish is making skirts a male only item. Also, severely restricting, controlling, and trying to force your child into your ideals usually results in the child rebelling in their adolescent and teen years and going in completely the opposite direction. Ex: parents who are extremely conservative and force their child into amish-like clothing, wont let them date or have friends that are "unsavory, etc...often end up with children who as soon as they can go out, try every kind of drug possible, get pregnant at a young age, turn to crime, etc...the pendulum swings the other way and the child wants to be nothing like their overbearing and unreasonable parent. A more effective tactic would be to just raise your child as if the world was already how you want it to be. Don't force gender restrictions on them, encourage them to like, wear, be whatever they want regardless of what society thinks they should be. Be supportive and encouraging, be an example they will want to live up to.

 

Erm no. First, every single person restricts their children in something, and more often than not children grow up adopting that mindset, most people currently raise their children to consent to gender norms, and children don't grow up the opposite and completely liberal. Second, If other people did exactly like me, then as soon as it would be fine for men to wear skirts it would be fine for everybody to wear skirts. Third I don't know why I started this hypothetical topic, I never wanted to have children. xD

[HuldraDancer]

There's nothing wrong with them choosing to do so, but not while they rely on me financially. No way of life is better than any other, just that I personally like something and dislike something else. If my child wishes to support a system that hurt me personally, all the power to them, that's their choice, but at least not at my expense, let them do so when they will become an independent individual, it's their life. Like I said, I don't like gender exclusive things, I don't have anything personal against skirts in particular, hell I'd probably buy my son one if he asked, just not my daughter, until it becomes a neutral option. My stance is extreme, and I see nothing wrong with that, I don't like compromise much. 

 

I feel we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one cause by putting such a bias against skirts you are in fact putting a gender on it. If you had two children one son and one daughter what would you tell your daughter if she asked you why couldn't she have a skirt but her brother can? You may not think your putting a gender on it but you are and making a bigger deal about it than what it really is. If you had a daughter would she not be allowed to have bras or make up as well? Would only a son be allowed these things? How does that not come across as putting a gender on it? Things like skirts will never be a neutral option as long as there are people assuming men can't wear one and women who do are passive conformist. I'm sorry but I just can not agree with you on this since it seems you are taking a fight (a worthy one) and making it 100 times more difficult than it needs to be. You can ignore most of this post if you wish too (not saying you have been just saying I kind of get it if you do) but could you please answer me on what you would tell your daughter if she asked why her brother could wear skirts but she couldn't? I at least want to know what you would tell the child with a reasonable question.

[AlanC9]

I'm just going to leave this here because it seems to be way off topic, and then move on:Rebelling against a system that one feels is restrictive by being restrictive against that system is just going to cause rebellion. I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic, unless the position is that everyone should walk run and act exactly the same, for fear of being mistaken for being male or female despite actually being one or the other, or both?

Yeah, that's what I was getting at upthread. I can't imagine a better way to make a girl into a fan of skirts than to tell her that she shouldn't wear them because the current conventions are sexist. She might internalize the rule, but if she doesn't...

[KainD]

I feel we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one cause by putting such a bias against skirts you are in fact putting a gender on it. If you had two children one son and one daughter what would you tell your daughter if she asked you why couldn't she have a skirt but her brother can? You may not think your putting a gender on it but you are and making a bigger deal about it than what it really is. If you had a daughter would she not be allowed to have bras or make up as well? Would only a son be allowed these things? How does that not come across as putting a gender on it? Things like skirts will never be a neutral option as long as there are people assuming men can't wear one and women who do are passive conformist. I'm sorry but I just can not agree with you on this since it seems you are taking a fight (a worthy one) and making it 100 times more difficult than it needs to be. You can ignore most of this post if you wish too (not saying you have been just saying I kind of get it if you do) but could you please answer me on what you would tell your daughter if she asked why her brother could wear skirts but she couldn't? I at least want to know what you would tell the child with a reasonable question.

 

God, I just realized that I dug myself into a very big hole with this hypothetical convo. I need to use a ladder asap: 

 

1) I'm to egoistic to live for the future generations, I care only about what I can personally do with my life, what are the norms and possibilities for me currently and any possible immediate changes that can happen while I still personally care. Big changes take too long and I won't be there to reap the benefits. 

 

That said ( hopefully we won't continue on this too much, I'm just going to answer your question ): If I was more altruistic and would try to raise my child as an altruist as well for future generations, I would tell my daughter that she can't wear a skirt so that in the future everybody could wear a skirt, and hope that she understands how frustrating it is for other people who can't wear said skirts, like she can't now, and that she is doing something right. 

 

2) I never wanted to have children and probably never will. 

[Nefla]

God, I just realized that I dug myself into a very big hole with this hypothetical convo. I need to use a ladder asap: 

 

Quick a distraction!

[HuldraDancer]

God, I just realized that I dug myself into a very big hole with this hypothetical convo. I need to use a ladder asap: 

 

1) I'm to egoistic to live for the future generations, I care only about what I can personally do with my life, what are the norms and possibilities for me currently and any possible immediate changes that can happen while I still personally care. Big changes take too long and I won't be there to reap the benefits. 

 

That said ( hopefully we won't continue on this too much, I'm just going to answer your question ): If I was more altruistic and would try to raise my child as an altruist as well for future generations, I would tell my daughter that she can't wear a skirt so that in the future everybody could wear a skirt, and hope that she understands how frustrating it is for other people who can't wear said skirts, like she can't now, and that she is doing something right. 

 

2) I never wanted to have children and probably never will. 

 

I realize this was a hypothetical discussion but it was one I wanted to pursue since I was interested in your line of thinking with this and thank you for answering my question, that said I still strongly disagree with you but I won't pursue this any more since it seems you don't wish to which I understand. Again thanks for answering my question but I still can not agree with you the logic just seems too much like a movie parent who obsesses over their work or cause or mission or whatever it is they are focused on. (just realized that sounds a little insulting but I really didn't mean it as such) Ahem again thank you for at least answering my question for me first. Shall we agree to disagree on the matter?

[KainD]

I realize this was a hypothetical discussion but it was one I wanted to pursue since I was interested in your line of thinking with this and thank you for answering my question, that said I still strongly disagree with you but I won't pursue this any more since it seems you don't wish to which I understand. Again thanks for answering my question but I still can not agree with you the logic just seems too much like a movie parent who obsesses over their work or cause or mission or whatever it is they are focused on. (just realized that sounds a little insulting but I really didn't mean it as such) Ahem again thank you for at least answering my question for me first. Shall we agree to disagree on the matter?

 

Holy molly, you are one polite fellow. Don't worry, I've been offended by professionals. 

To be fair, I might be wrong, my action plan might be silly, this is not one of those topics that I have a set in stone opinion on. I haven't taken my time to think through my glorious plan on how to destroy gender in our society, nor does it really seem possible to me in my lifetime, thus making any thought a little pointless in the first place, beyond the fun of speculation.  
 

[HuldraDancer]

Holy molly, you are one polite fellow. Don't worry, I've been offended by professionals. 

To be fair, I might be wrong, my action plan might be silly, this is not one of those topics that I have a set in stone opinion on. I haven't taken my time to think through my glorious plan on how to destroy gender in our society, nor does it really seem possible to me in my lifetime, thus making any thought a little pointless in the first place, beyond the fun of speculation.  
 

 

I try to be polite especially since I don't really disagree with your intent just the extreme measures, I never did like being rude unless I felt someone was being rude to me  Like I said its a good fight one that needs to be done and I may be bias myself with it since I've lived with extremes going the other way so I've never been big on extreme measures, but I'm glad this didn't get mean or nasty like so many other 'discussions' I've seen online before. Thanks for partaking in the discussion with me though

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

When it's allowed for everyone she'll be one of those people.

Dude wtf, no one's stopping you from wearing skirts and heels, but children are not tools for furthering your social justice agenda. Do you know how easily children at school are ostracised? What should she say when someone asks? "My daddy thinks men should wear skirts"?

[KainD]

Dude wtf, no one's stopping you from wearing skirts and heels, but children are not tools for furthering your social justice agenda. Do you know how easily children at school are ostracised? What should she say when someone asks? "My daddy thinks men should wear skirts"?

 

Relax, I already said, I'm not having kids, it was just a hypothetical question.

Messed up world as it is, no need for more mess. 

[The Baconer]

God damn it Kain.

 

 

I don't actually know what we're yelling about in here but your avatar is still the worst.

[KainD]

God damn it Kain.

 

 

I don't actually know what we're yelling about in here but your avatar is still the worst.

 

Lmfao

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Relax, I already said, I'm not having kids, it was just a hypothetical question.
Messed up world as it is, no need for more mess.

Accidents happen, like me.

[KainD]

Accidents happen, like me.

I'm getting a vasectomy, no accidents.