76 réponses à ce sujet

[TurretSyndrome]

Bioware can make both have the same level of access to weapons while keeping them different from each other if they really wanted to. They just don't want to do it because it will take more work.

[Mirrman70]

OMG I totes want to DUAL WIELD GREATSWORDS AS WARRIOR! Warrior super strong right? let him be an unstopabl kill machine.

 

 

That was sarcasm. Bioware has shown no indication that they will get rid class only weapons.

[DaySeeker]

I like class restrictions and would rather they spend their time and attention on other things.

[The Night Haunter]

Rogues weren't "more flexible" in DA:O. They got completely shafted.

 

What value is a shield when you're physically incapable of learning the skills required to use it effectively?

 

 

Lolno -- The rogue system in Origins was broken. It could barely be distinguished from the Warrior.

 

Not like I'm saying I preferred how it was in DA2. I just didn't like how they were balanced in Origins at all. It was frankly put, a big mess.

I don't know what game you were playing. My rogue with +50% backstab damage, Veshaille and some dagger I can't remember, destroyed everything, while Alistair taunted.

No warrior could do that.

 

That is how you give rogues and warriors the exact same weapon talents and still keep them distinct, with class mechanics, rather than weapon mechanics. After all we are saying the classes should be distinct. Doing that through artificial weapon restrictions is silly.

 

Everyone who is saying DAO rogues were just lesser warriors either never played it or didn't bother to learn how to play it.

[Mockingword]

I don't care how awesome your rogue was when you built him a particular way.

 

When I say rogues got shafted, I mean in terms of the development options they had compared to other classes.

 

I couldn't give a crap about weapon restrictions either way. But if you're going to let me equip a weapon, you should let me learn the associated skills.

[In Exile]

I don't know what game you were playing. My rogue with +50% backstab damage, Veshaille and some dagger I can't remember, destroyed everything, while Alistair taunted.

No warrior could do that.

 

That is how you give rogues and warriors the exact same weapon talents and still keep them distinct, with class mechanics, rather than weapon mechanics. After all we are saying the classes should be distinct. Doing that through artificial weapon restrictions is silly.

 

Everyone who is saying DAO rogues were just lesser warriors either never played it or didn't bother to learn how to play it.

 

Rogues required a tremendous amount of micromanaging to use as backstab machines because the AI couldn't do it, and at that point you just ran up into the opportunity cost of micromanaging a well-build mage vs. a rogue, since the mage could obliterate an entire room of enemies alone (without storm of the century) in the time it took a rogue + warrior to kill 2 or 3 enemies. 

[The Night Haunter]

I don't care how awesome your rogue was when you built him a particular way.

 

When I say rogues got shafted, I mean in terms of the development options they had compared to other classes.

 

I couldn't give a crap about weapon restrictions either way. But if you're going to let me equip a weapon, you should let me learn the associated skills.

Shields don't make much sense to me with rogues, but I don't think shields should be warrior only. They have attribute requirements, and thats enough for me. 

 

As for development options: the Rogue tree was half again as big as the warrior tree, giving them more options than warriors. Weapons + class for warriors was 20 talents, rogues was 24, so they had more options within a spec than warriors. They had fewer 'specs' sure, since warriors could do 2h/1h+S/DW/Archer, while rogues were limited to last 2, but rogue archers were distinct (not as much as DW) from warrior archers and rogue backstabbers were very unique.

 

I get your point, but personally I'd prefer the opportunity to equip everything, even my char would suck with it because they don't have the skills for it.

[Exaltation]

This leaves Rogues useful only for traps/chests/doors if warrior can do anything else.

[tmp7704]

Given the popularity of Dark Souls games I'm not sure if there's any point in enforcing rigid class system, at least for the player's character...

[The Night Haunter]

Rogues required a tremendous amount of micromanaging to use as backstab machines because the AI couldn't do it, and at that point you just ran up into the opportunity cost of micromanaging a well-build mage vs. a rogue, since the mage could obliterate an entire room of enemies alone (without storm of the century) in the time it took a rogue + warrior to kill 2 or 3 enemies. 

Now you are getting into limitations of DA's AI, that has nothing to do with the classes themselves. My backstabbers were always the Warden cause I didn't like Zev so much, so it wasn't extra micro for me. This is all getting into which class can kill the fastest, which isn't to me the point of class differentiation. To me class differentiation means that a warrior with DW is focsed on group damage, while a rogue with DW is destroying a single target faster than anything else.

Mage is completely different from warrior and rogue so I'm not going to argue that well built mages were engines of destruction.

 

So all-in-all that limitation has nothing to do with warriors vs rogue, it has to do with DA AI and if you are willing to micro your party.

[The Night Haunter]

This leaves Rogues useful only for traps/chests/doors if warrior can do anything else.

In DAO warriors couldn't do everything a rogue could do, even though they had all the weapon specs of rogues. Rogues could backstab, they could stealth and lay traps, they could stealth and assassinate priority targets. DAO had great differentiation between classes. My thinking was that DA2 dropped down to 2 weps per class because of time constraints, not because the devs actually wanted to go that route.

[In Exile]

Now you are getting into limitations of DA's AI, that has nothing to do with the classes themselves. My backstabbers were always the Warden cause I didn't like Zev so much, so it wasn't extra micro for me. This is all getting into which class can kill the fastest, which isn't to me the point of class differentiation. To me class differentiation means that a warrior with DW is focsed on group damage, while a rogue with DW is destroying a single target faster than anything else.

Mage is completely different from warrior and rogue so I'm not going to argue that well built mages were engines of destruction.

 

So all-in-all that limitation has nothing to do with warriors vs rogue, it has to do with DA AI and if you are willing to micro your party.

 

The limitations of the AI have a lot to do with whether a class is bad or not. Rogues are an easy class to just plain b0rk. So there's already a high threshold to building a functional rogue. After that, you have to babysit the character to be useful at all - take your eyes off it, and you have a fragile warrior that does less damage. That's a serious problem. 

 

Part of differentiating classes is functionality. The rogue isn't functional except in a narrow band of situations - otherwise it's just an inferior warrior. To say that the rogue is different if you invest a lot of time to learn to build it properly, and then invest more time to babysit it, and then only at the endgame (if we're talking about a CUN rogue in DA:O, getting a functional hit rate takes a long time), we've reached the point of anti-fun. 

 

Rogues mostly suck in DA:O. That doesn't mean, necessarily, that rogues have to have restricted weapon talents, but how DA:O did it is bad. 

[In Exile]

In DAO warriors couldn't do everything a rogue could do, even though they had all the weapon specs of rogues. Rogues could backstab, they could stealth and lay traps, they could stealth and assassinate priority targets. DAO had great differentiation between classes. My thinking was that DA2 dropped down to 2 weps per class because of time constraints, not because the devs actually wanted to go that route.

 

But traps were garbage, stealth was useless, and backstab required a great deal of micromanaging. Without investing a lot of time and energy into basically useless features, rogues were just reduced to warriors. That's a serious problem. 

[DaySeeker]

Dark Souls, Skyrim and DAI are completely different games. DA is party based and tactical, it is way more character and story focused. Since it is party based one character does not have to be able to do everything.

DA2 was the first game I played I enjoyed being rogue. Within the defined classes are specializations. Opening weapons to everyone makes it a balancing mess and doesn't seem to improve the game at all except to mumble everything together.

[Exaltation]

But DAO/A also had more specializations,now it's only 3.

[The Night Haunter]

The limitations of the AI have a lot to do with whether a class is bad or not. Rogues are an easy class to just plain b0rk. So there's already a high threshold to building a functional rogue. After that, you have to babysit the character to be useful at all - take your eyes off it, and you have a fragile warrior that does less damage. That's a serious problem. 

 

Part of differentiating classes is functionality. The rogue isn't functional except in a narrow band of situations - otherwise it's just an inferior warrior. To say that the rogue is different if you invest a lot of time to learn to build it properly, and then invest more time to babysit it, and then only at the endgame (if we're talking about a CUN rogue in DA:O, getting a functional hit rate takes a long time), we've reached the point of anti-fun. 

 

Rogues mostly suck in DA:O. That doesn't mean, necessarily, that rogues have to have restricted weapon talents, but how DA:O did it is bad. 

Well if your criteria as to whether a class is good or not is if you can faceroll it then certainly. I don't really know what to tell you other than I sincerely hope the game (on Hard) actually requires learning the game for all classes. Rogues excel in their niche, warriors do good in most niches, and mages drop awesome AoE or manablock other mages hardcore. Part of DAO (and the dev's have said DAI) is tactical combat, being smart and using things like positioning, stealth, and agro management are all part of that, and all help rogues be as effective (or more effective) as warriors in dps situations.

But sure, if all you want to do is put in a few tactics and throw your party at the enemy then rogues are not very well optimized (except as archers).

 

Also rogues are not inherently more fragile than warriors. You can pump em full of Str and equip massive armor on them the exact same as with warriors, but they excel best with lighter +crit damage gear and with high Cunning (instead of Str) which boosts armor piercing and (with a talent) base damage.

[AlanC9]

 
Also rogues are not inherently more fragile than warriors. You can pump em full of Str and equip massive armor on them the exact same as with warriors, but they excel best with lighter +crit damage gear and with high Cunning (instead of Str) which boosts armor piercing and (with a talent) base damage.

But that kinda proves the point, doesn't it? You can make a rogue less fragile , but only by gimping her.

[The Night Haunter]

But that kinda proves the point, doesn't it? You can make a rogue less fragile , but only by gimping her.

Depends on what you mean by gimping. Putting Str into a rogue has the exact same benefits and dumping it into a warrior. You can make your DW rogue almost identical to a DW warrior, but with the ability to pick locks, stun enemies on command (dirty trick), wider flanking, auto-crit stunned enemies, but lacking the ability to aggro manage quite as well and extra fatigue. Since weapon talents make up the majority of talent points spent they will be practically identical. Thats not how I would build a rogue since that's just making a warrior coated as a rogue (but not actually worse than a warrior, baring 15% extra fatigue from that one warrior passive).

 

So that certainly doesn't help the point of being able to differentiate themselves, but to be fair that isn't a prefered rogue build. DW Rogues = DW Warriors if you build them the exact same.

[Deebo305]

I don't know what game you were playing. My rogue with +50% backstab damage, Veshaille and some dagger I can't remember, destroyed everything, while Alistair taunted.

No warrior could do that.

 

That is how you give rogues and warriors the exact same weapon talents and still keep them distinct, with class mechanics, rather than weapon mechanics. After all we are saying the classes should be distinct. Doing that through artificial weapon restrictions is silly.

 

Everyone who is saying DAO rogues were just lesser warriors either never played it or didn't bother to learn how to play it.

The backstab skill was really the only difference between Warrior and Rouges in Origins, hell my Rouge was damn near untouchable half way through Origins because of high dex. points so broken is a good way to describe them actually

 

But Rouge and Warriors were frankly better in DA2 because of the restriction, people may complain about the reused dungeons in DA2 but reused weapon skills,movement and attack animations for Warriors and Rouges in Origins were laughable

 

While I don't mind Warriors get DW skill back, I prefer archery stays with Rouges, As armor is no longer restricted then people can make their tanky archers all they like. As for weapon switching, never bothered with it in Origins so no opinion

[robertthebard]

I'm all for weapon swapping, but not really all that eager to backslide to Origins for rogues/warriors.  I seem to remember lots of discussion about how a rogue could be every bit the warrior in Origins, if you built them for it.  I also remember a fair amount of "give lockpicking to warriors and mages so we won't need rogues" threads.  (With the addendum of adding bashing too, IIRC)  So no, I'm not eager to return to Origins in this regard.  The one thing that we can take away from DA ][ is that the classes were distinct, and we need that difference, in my own opinion.

[metatheurgist]

How can the classes be distinct if Rogues fight like Warriors? For class distinction they should be really bad at combat and only have 1 or 2 weapons. They can keep lockpicking.

[Exaltation]

Well if you prefer Rogues to simply be a walking lockpicking tool lol....

[AkiKishi]

I missed being able to scout out a map, make a plan, and execute it from DA:O. DA2 was just those lame waves of things coming from improbable locations. DA:O had thought out encounters that you could plan around with stealth. 

[DisturbedJim83]

Oh look its this again "Wah why can my Warrior be dual sword wielding awesomesauce butt kicker." Well cos class distinction Duh The whole point of the Warrior Class is to go wading in dealing large damage while equally taking the brunt of the attacks so the Rogues can dash in and finish off the enemy/flank them while the mage uses AOE and healing on the Warrior.

 

Besides this is an old discussion, bringing it up again 4 months from release and expecting change is pointless like it or lump they have their reasons for going their way so forgive my bluntness but really you have 3 choices:

1)Suck it up like a man and accept it.

2)Leave

3)Use mods unless of course your using a console in which case your buggered