202 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Actually they did want to show Shepard dead in all endings. The breath scene was simply an Easter Egg that took on a life of its own because Bioware so misread their audience.

As long as you're playing the "let's speculate about Bio's intent" game, when do you figure they changed their minds and decided that they wanted Shepard dead after all? And why?

[dreamgazer]

I deliberately left out the Troll Ending, since, as you pointed out, we don't actually see Shepard die.

You don't actually see Shepard die in mid-EMS and mid-high-EMS Destroy endings, either.

For all we know, the breath-scene took place in those, too, but simply wasn't included in the earned context.

[AlanC9]

Synthesis
Low EMS Control
High EMS Control
Low EMS Destroy
Medium EMS Destroy
High EMS Destroy <3100 EMS
 
I deliberately left out the Troll Ending, since, as you pointed out, we don't actually see Shepard die.

Gotcha. I wouldn't parse the endings that way myself, but if you figure there are eight endings, this makes sense.

[AlanC9]

For all we know, the breath-scene took place in those, too, but simply wasn't included in the earned context.

I'd rather not go there. That would render the presentation actively misleading, wouldn't it?

[Iakus]

You don't actually see Shepard die in mid-EMS and mid-high-EMS Destroy endings, either.

For all we know, the breath-scene took place in those, too, but simply wasn't included in the earned context.

 

We see Shepard walk into a freaking explosion, one that engulfs the entire Presidium Tower.

 

I'd say the burden is more on Shepard surviving than Shepard dying, wouldn't you say?

[Iakus]

Gotcha. I wouldn't parse the endings that way myself, but if you figure there are eight endings, this makes sense.

 

I figure if they do different cinematics, it's a different ending.

[Hadeedak]

Do renegade and paragon control count as different?

 

Just muttering here, since obviously Shep dies in control, no matter what your EMS, alignment, so on.

[dreamgazer]

We see Shepard walk into a freaking explosion, one that engulfs the entire Presidium Tower.
 
I'd say the burden is more on Shepard surviving than Shepard dying, wouldn't you say?

Eh, Shepard survived a direct hit from one of Sovereign's exploded-off arms (again, wiping out the better portion of the council chamber), and that was without the upgrades of Lazarus. The breath-scene is there in the upper tier; therefore, unless shown, Shepard's feasibly alive in the lower variants, too.

 

 

(... but really, the writers could bull their way around this twelve ways from Sunday if they wanted Shepard in the sequel).

[KaiserShep]

Gotta love that heavy bone and muscle weave.

[dreamgazer]

Gotta love that heavy bone and muscle weave.

 

Heavy skin weave, too.

[AlanC9]

I figure if they do different cinematics, it's a different ending.

Do slides count? If so, we've got a factorial going.

[Iakus]

Eh, Shepard survived a direct hit from one of Sovereign's exploded-off arms (again, wiping out the better portion of the council chamber), and that was without the upgrades of Lazarus. The breath-scene is there in the upper tier; therefore, unless shown, Shepard's feasibly alive in the lower variants, too.

 

 

(... but really, the writers could bull their way around this twelve ways from Sunday if they wanted Shepard in the sequel).

 

 

And if ME3 ended with Shepard climbing over a piece of the Crucible followed by him/her limping to the search team, I'd concede that there was a definitive "Shepard Lives" ending.

[Iakus]

Do slides count? If so, we've got a factorial going.

 

Given we have to draw the line somewhere, no.  I'm limiting it to Crucible effects.

[dreamgazer]

And if ME3 ended with Shepard climbing over a piece of the Crucible followed by him/her limping to the search team, I'd concede that there was a definitive "Shepard Lives" ending.

 

That's fine, though I certainly feel that there's a "definitive" ending where Shepard lives.

 

As do most who refer to it as the "Shepard lives" ending. As does the official BioWare post about the scene.  As does the clip's datafile.  As do the countless usages of the Finger Twitch Revival and No One Could Survive That tropes across fiction that have done the same damn thing. 

[Iakus]

And yet it is deliberately left ambiguous...

[dreamgazer]

And yet it is deliberately left ambiguous...

Eh. They decided not to hold the player's hand.

[Iakus]

Eh. They decided not to hold the player's hand.

 

You can't have it both ways.  It's can't be both ambiguous and definitive.

 

You either look in Schrodinger's Box or you don't

[dreamgazer]

You can't have it both ways.  It's can't be both ambiguous and definitive.

 

Sure you can.  

 

That's the nature of interpretation: something may allow for one or two alternate outlooks, but the creator frequently (almost always) has a definitive answer. 

[Iakus]

Sure you can.  

 

That's the nature of interpretation: something may allow for one or two alternate outlooks, but the creator frequently (almost always) has a definitive answer. 

 

In which case it's definitive.  Albeit poorly written.

[dreamgazer]

In which case it's definitive.  Albeit poorly written.

 

I don't really agree with that.  

 

Take the top spinning at the end of Inception, for example: people have reached several different interpretations of that ending, but Christopher Nolan has a definitive answer.  There was also a definitive answer as to whether Deckard was a replicant in Blade Runner.  And countless others, too. 

[Steelcan]

Actually they did want to show Shepard dead in all endings.  The breath scene was simply an Easter Egg that took on a life of its own because Bioware so misread their audience.  It was all those who wanted Shepard to live could cling to.

 

And I think it's pretty clear at this point that a charred torso alone in a pile of rubble doesn't "scream" loud enough.  

In the other endings there is zero indication that Shepard is alive, his name is put up on the Memorial board, no breath scene.

 

In High EMS Destroy the name is not put up and you see a character, the same gender as your Shepard, take a breath.  This is either an extremely elaborate troll on BioWare's part, because without the scene we would assume that Shepard is dead, or more simply it is meant to convey Shepard's survival.

 

I'm gonna go with Occam's razor on this one

[Iakus]

In the other endings there is zero indication that Shepard is alive, his name is put up on the Memorial board, no breath scene.

 

In High EMS Destroy the name is not put up and you see a character, the same gender as your Shepard, take a breath.  This is either an extremely elaborate troll on BioWare's part, because without the scene we would assume that Shepard is dead, or more simply it is meant to convey Shepard's survival.

 

I'm gonna go with Occam's razor on this one

 

Maybe it was fine for you.  But it's clearly not enough for others. 

 

And frankly, the one safe assummption I had about EC before it was released was that they would expand on the breath scene, giving  more "clarity and closure"  for people who wanted just one outcome where Shepard lives 

 

.Yet they couldn't be bothered to do even that much.

[Iakus]

I don't really agree with that.  

 

Take the top spinning at the end of Inception, for example: people have reached several different interpretations of that ending, but Christopher Nolan has a definitive answer.  There was also a definitive answer as to whether Deckard was a replicant in Blade Runner.  And countless others, too. 

 

And I go by the definitive answer.

 

Though I seem to get in trouble when I use such vague terms as "countless others" 

[themikefest]

They might of done the breath scene to have a reason to bring Shepard back in the future. Of course its been said many times that his/her story is over.

[dreamgazer]

And I go by the definitive answer.

 

Though I seem to get in trouble when I use such vague terms as "countless others" 

 

I could rattle off other examples, but I'd rather stay clear of spoiling other works that aren't as widespread as the two I mentioned. 

 

I could also discuss the lack of concrete answers to those things from the writers/directors/"word of God", from the Nolans' willful avoidance to Scott waiting twenty years to divulge the truth, but I'll stay clear of that, too.