282 réponses à ce sujet

[zestalyn]

Just played the shadow broker DLC for the first time and saw in Mordins' dossier that the genophage maintains a 99.9% deathrate among krogan newborn. 

I knew the genophage was bad, but not that bad, and now I understand better why the krogran are so devastated by it. 

I don't understand why they had to make the death rate so debilitating, especially when Mordin had the opportunity to reinstate a new version when the krogan were adapting.

I understand the basic idea of it- it was necessary to quell the rebellions, and the krogan didn't know how to manage their populations at all when colonizing other planets and consuming resources. But why not normalize their birth rate, (like a few births per krogran mother instead of 1000) instead of destroying it? Basically establish a middle ground. That would be both the humane and diplomatic thing to do. The 99.9% is kind of ridiculous. I don't know, maybe I'm missing something here. 

I can't imagine what they'd do after the Reapers war is over with. The krogan had plenty of time to figure out how to manage a planet's resources to cater to their prolific birth rate but they never did. Because of how harsh the genophage was they'd probably object to any form of birth control. 

[cap and gown]

.9999 * 1000 = 1 birth per year per female = replacement rate. If Krogan women had 100 babies per year instead the number would have been 99%. Would the missing .99 make you feel better? Do you feel bad for humans that we can generally only have one baby per year?

[Excella Gionne]

*sigh* not to be rude, but I am so tired of genophage threads...

 

Yes, the genophage was unethical and it still is too. But it was the only decision at the time, but keeping it going and releasing the modified genophage is what really ticks me off. I mean, we're talking about killing an entire species here! 

[Excella Gionne]

.9999 * 1000 = 1 birth per year per female = replacement rate. If Krogan women had 100 babies per year instead the number would have been 99%. Would the missing .99 make you feel better? Do you feel bad for humans that we can generally only have one baby per year?

We are use to our own biology, and we don't really question it at all. For krogans, we're talking about altering the biology of the species to only have a child per year. Your question about the OP feeling bad for humans for not having more than one baby per year is irrelevant.

[KaiserShep]

The krogan party too hard. The clubs can't handle them.

[cap and gown]

We are use to our own biology, and we don't really question it at all. For krogans, we're talking about altering the biology of the species to only have a child per year. Your question about the OP feeling bad for humans for not having more than one baby per year is irrelevant.

 

I question everything about the ridiculousness of the biology and sociology of the Krogans. If the writers wanted me to give a rip they should have come up with some more credible science. The only way to get the Krogan biology to work is through fantasy. This is supposed to be a sci-fi game, not Dragon Age.

[Excella Gionne]

I question everything about the ridiculousness of the biology and sociology of the Krogans. If the writers wanted me to give a rip they should have come up with some more credible science. The only way to get the Krogan biology to work is through fantasy. This is supposed to be a sci-fi game, not Dragon Age.

I do agree that their biology is completely broken and unreal. EDI's dialogue about the females breaks everything apart. While their sociology is quite understandable...but what about their sociology that makes them seem ridiculous?

[DeinonSlayer]

I question everything about the ridiculousness of the biology and sociology of the Krogans. If the writers wanted me to give a rip they should have come up with some more credible science. The only way to get the Krogan biology to work is through fantasy. This is supposed to be a sci-fi game, not Dragon Age.

They never really did nail down how it works, did they? Sometimes they speak of clutches of hundreds of eggs, but then you have Eve talking about "her child" (singular) not drawing breath, and multiple ending slides showing Krogan parents escorting a single child around.

Patriarch talks in ME2 of his pre-genophage memories, specifically Krogan young killing each other in the nest. I wonder if what we see in the ending slides is the only one out of each clutch who didn't get their skull dashed on the rocks...

[zestalyn]

I'm sorry for beating a dead horse, I'm sure this has been discussed before but I've only gotten into Mass Effect like two months ago, and I thought it's a better use of my time to get it off my chest here while facilitating some discussion, rather than trying to look for archived threads from 2 years ago with the same question. 

Hm I guess what I'm saying is that the modified genophage shouldve been used as an opportunity to deal with the problem of krogan extinction. The 99.9% in combination with their culture's aggressive nature = extinction and angry krogan that hate everyone. They could've made a diplomatic move out of it, as a way to appease the krogan, lift them out of their vicious cycle and help them be more productive members of galactic society.

The genophage should've been something that let them do what the quarians do. Procreate just enough to sustain numbers to equilibrium based on current situation. With the genophage its a steady decline, nothing more, and even without considering ethics, I think it was a dumb idea that was simply begging for bad blood. 

[cap and gown]

I do agree that their biology is completely broken and unreal. EDI's dialogue about the females breaks everything apart. While their sociology is quite understandable...but what about their sociology that makes them seem ridiculous?

 

Language is  a product of nurture. It is a social construct. How can you nurture 1000 children (even assuming Krogan females only lay one clutch in their lifetime)? The only way is through a rip in the space time continuum.

 

A species that has 1000 children in a year generally does so with the intent of having a few survive. There is no nurture involved. They lay the eggs and hope for the best. There is an alternative and that is what you see with ants, bees and termites: only one female is fertile, all the rest are infertile and the infertile females provide the nurture of the young. But from what we are led to believe, Krogan are species where every female can have babies and there are as many females as there are males. So they do not adopt the termite/ant/bee strategy of nurture, but have a cockroach like rate of reproduction. The two just don't go together. Its one or the other.

[Excella Gionne]

Language is  a product of nurture. It is a social construct. How can you nurture 1000 children (even assuming Krogan females only lay one clutch in their lifetime)? The only way is through a rip in the space time continuum.

 

A species that has 1000 children in a year generally does so with the intent of having a few survive. There is no nurture involved. They lay the eggs and hope for the best. There is an alternative and that is what you see with ants, bees and termites: only one female is fertile, all the rest are infertile and the infertile females provide the nurture of the young. But from what we are led to believe, Krogan are species where every female can have babies and there are as many females as there are males. So they do not adopt the termite/ant/bee strategy of nurture, but have a cockroach like rate of reproduction. The two just don't go together. Its one or the other.

ME contradicts itself so much in every way. I see your point though. There's just not a lot of love when you have so many children, but only a few will survive because of other causes that isn't the genophage. Garvug was planet that was badly damaged due to krogan population.

[Kabooooom]

Language is a product of nurture. It is a social construct. How can you nurture 1000 children (even assuming Krogan females only lay one clutch in their lifetime)? The only way is through a rip in the space time continuum.

A species that has 1000 children in a year generally does so with the intent of having a few survive. There is no nurture involved. They lay the eggs and hope for the best. There is an alternative and that is what you see with ants, bees and termites: only one female is fertile, all the rest are infertile and the infertile females provide the nurture of the young. But from what we are led to believe, Krogan are species where every female can have babies and there are as many females as there are males. So they do not adopt the termite/ant/bee strategy of nurture, but have a cockroach like rate of reproduction. The two just don't go together. Its one or the other.

My background is in biology (I suspect yours may be too), and I never had a problem with the Krogan reproductive rate for the following reason- presumably, most of their young would not actually survive. The Krogan were an r-selected species because Tuchanka was a harsh world, an evolutionary crucible under the massive energy input from an F-class star. All indications were that the Krogan evolved in an extremely volatile and harsh environment, and that most of their young would succumb early on to predation or disease. Others apparently succumbed to death at the hands of their own siblings.

Tuchanka was as harsh before the nuclear holocaust as it was after- albeit in different ways. Even then it was likely most of their young would die. It wasnt until they were uplifted and left the unforgiving environment of Tuchanka that they started to reproduce exponentially. It was the Salarian mistake and lack of foresight that made their reproductive rate a problem.

Mordin also tells you that the genophage normalized their population to Pre-industrial levels, which is further evidence that the mortality rate of their young had always been incredibly high.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

It's not harsh. It's pest control. Like Cockroaches. 

[DeinonSlayer]

It's not harsh. It's pest control. Like Cockroaches.

Let's go with "counterproductive to pacifying the species." If it simply stabilized population growth, you'd still have the problem of blood rage, only without an epidemic of stillbirths keeping the pot of xenophobic resentment boiling.

Gotta wonder if blood rage is something else which could be expunged from their gene pool in a similar fashion...

I wonder if the Krogan would resist efforts to undo that. It isn't natural; blood rage only became universal due to their own nuclear war. It isn't "who they are" any more than a fatally weak immune system defines the Quarians as a people. The latter jump at the opportunity for a cure for their affliction.

I could see the Krogan fighting it, though. Alien meddling aside, they'd probably think a cure for blood rage was making them weak.

[Kabooooom]

Let's go with "counterproductive to pacifying the species." If it simply stabilized population growth, you'd still have the problem of blood rage, only without an epidemic of stillbirths keeping the pot of xenophobic resentment boiling.

Gotta wonder if blood rage is something else which could be expunged from their gene pool in a similar fashion...

I wonder if the Krogan would resist efforts to undo that. It isn't natural; blood rage only became universal due to their own nuclear war. It isn't "who they are" any more than a fatally weak immune system defines the Quarians as a people. The latter jump at the opportunity for a cure for their affliction.

I could see the Krogan fighting it, though. Alien meddling aside, they'd probably think a cure for blood rage was making them weak.

Yup, which is often overlooked by people who didn't read the Krogan history. They think "look at the ruins of Krogan civilization, surely curing the genophage will give them a newfound renaissance". But evolutionarily speaking, those weren't the same Krogan. Natural selection selected for the blood rage variant allele following the nuclear holocaust. Prior to that, it existed in a minuscule number of Krogan and their society at large viewed it as pathological, and somewhat akin to how humans view psychopathy.

I had some serious reservations about curing the genophage. Just because they ended their world in nuclear war doesn't mean they were an overly aggressive species to the point that they couldn't coexist with galactic society. Humanity may end our civilization in the very same way, in real life. But the Krogan the have blood rage, they are like the Yahg. Coexistence seems unlikely, unless Shepalyst is there to keep the peace or Synthesis somehow changes them. I never adhered to the "Wrex will keep them in line" argument. That's nonsensical.

[Bob from Accounting]

I'm pretty sure the Codex says the krogan only enter blood rage when seriously injured...

 

Which would make it pretty silly for people to be making claims that their entire society is going to be significantly altered by it.

[Kabooooom]

I'm pretty sure the Codex says the krogan only enter blood rage when seriously injured...

Which would make it pretty silly for people to be making claims that their entire society is going to be significantly altered by it.

The codex also states that the ancient Krogan society treated this as a pathological condition, and they "medicated or imprisoned those afflicted to protect themselves and society". Which implies that it happened enough to make them a menace, either because of the Krogan's naturally violent and deadly nature making them prone to injury, or perhaps some other reason. It's irrelevant, as it clearly was a concern for them, and they certainly treated it as a threat to their society.

[Fixers0]

because it was necessary.

[Jukaga]

A reasonable alternative to the genophage would have been weapon platforms in orbit around Tuchanka. Let them do whatever they want in their own house but the second you detect something more advanced than a flintlock firearm you slam a KEW bombardment on the offenders.

[Kabooooom]

A reasonable alternative to the genophage would have been weapon platforms in orbit around Tuchanka. Let them do whatever they want in their own house but the second you detect something more advanced than a flintlock firearm you slam a KEW bombardment on the offenders.

The CDEM does maintain military stations in orbit, but this wouldn't work anyways as a sole solution since the Krogan had already expanded throughout the galaxy. You couldnt just issue an order for them to all return to their home world so you could point guns at them for an indeterminate period of time.

[Reorte]

The genophage should've been something that let them do what the quarians do. Procreate just enough to sustain numbers to equilibrium based on current situation.

That's precisely what it is.

[Jukaga]

The CDEM does maintain military stations in orbit, but this wouldn't work anyways as a sole solution since the Krogan had already expanded throughout the galaxy. You couldnt just issue an order for them to all return to their home world so you could point guns at them for an indeterminate period of time.

 

Shoot-on-sight orders for any non-compliant Krogan would do the trick. Issue grenade launchers to police and customs agents, that would get rid of the Krogan diaspora in a hurry.

[Obadiah]

I kind of wonder if Wrex really was a mutant. What would his genes passed down have done to their culture?

[Kabooooom]

Shoot-on-sight orders for any non-compliant Krogan would do the trick. Issue grenade launchers to police and customs agents, that would get rid of the Krogan diaspora in a hurry.

The only thing that makes me question that this would be a viable option is their ridiculous birth rate. Hide out on a planet for awhile, spawn a small army. It's hard to eradicate a species when they **** like rabbits and reproduce in massive numbers.

[Jukaga]

The only thing that makes me question that this would be a viable option is their ridiculous birth rate. Hide out on a planet for awhile, spawn a small army. It's hard to eradicate a species when they **** like rabbits and reproduce in massive numbers.

Is it ever stated how long the maturation cycle is? Diaspora Krogan that go off the grid wouldn't really be a problem. Without a tech base their extreme birthrate would run into it's natural attrition; youngling fights in the nest, predation, disease, war and hungry adult Krogan would keep the numbers in check. Upon discovery, a KEW strike could deal with any stone age Krogan society if necessary.