282 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Edit: I helped Wrex and saved Eve. I am in support of the Krogan future but also in support a Mordin's modified genophage and Okeers cloning of Krogan.

 

Cloning the krogan seems counterproductive if you're also looking out for their future. It only serves to their detriment, because the krogan themselves would never sanction it, and the only people who would bother with the expense of doing so would only be using them as cannon fodder to toss at some band of suckers a few LY away. This can only be done in secret, and even then, being able to keep it a secret relies on the approval of certain interested parties, namely the turians and salarians. There's no way to hide from the STG, and they'd nuke it from orbit, just to be sure.

[Excella Gionne]

 

@KaiserShep I approve of it done in secret and use them for canon fodder. I support the Krogan in terms of continuing their existence with the modified genophage keeping their breeding in check. Besides using clones would be beneficial unless there's something I overlooked that cloning Krogan is harming the Krogan population or health. If not then use the clones for war such as the rachni unless your fine with throwing away valuable lives. Would you rather use a clone to fight your battles against a killer threat or go in yourself with a low chance of survival or death. Please. Enlighten me.

 

Edit: The use of clones is not unethical. Its just immoral.

It actually applies to both. Morality is based on a society's code or rules to follow that are passed down. Ethics apply to a group or people's collection of behavior. 

[KaiserShep]

@KaiserShep I approve of it done in secret and use them for canon fodder. I support the Krogan in terms of continuing their existence with the modified genophage keeping their breeding in check. Besides using clones would be beneficial unless there's something I overlooked that cloning Krogan is harming the Krogan population or health. If not then use the clones for war such as the rachni unless your fine with throwing away valuable lives. Would you rather use a clone to fight your battles against a killer threat or go in yourself with a low chance of survival or death. Please. Enlighten me.

 

Edit: The use of clones is not unethical. Its just immoral.

 

Look at it from this perspective. Let's say that one of the Council races in the MEU decided that it would be a great idea if they made an army of human clones to use as a massive, disposable fighting force to unleash on their enemies. The human race would be outraged and would do whatever they could to stop it. They are manufacturing slaves of our own species, and these slaves, whether anyone likes it or not, would be representative of us. The same would be true of the krogan. How the galaxy views their species as a whole can now hinge completely on what the slaves' masters decide to do with them. Aside from the serious ethical concerns (which are unavoidable), there's a serious conflict of interest. The people who control this army can set them upon anyone they wish, potentially with no concern with how this may affect relations the krogan may have with other groups in galactic society.

 

As for the utility of it, I think MEU is kind of weird in its serious lack of drones, despite the ability to create robots that can effectively do the fighting for you. Frankly, I don't see how clones are better than robots, which require no food, and can be freely destroyed and recycled with zero issues. They don't even have to use AI's.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

@Tsunayoshi That's a small number of krogan compared to the general population. Dumping all your faith in a few Krogan is foolish and dangerous. Wrex is a bad example considering w/o eve he will undoubtly resort to Krogan expansion or create a Krogan Empire to take revenge. Theres not enough story on charr except hes in a relationship with an asari. Anything else would be based off assumptions. Thax's assistant proves nothing, there isn't much details pertaining to the kind of 'work' he does and anything else is just peer speculation. The second portion is fact.

 

Edit: You are right. I cannot generalize an entire present day species off the "Land before time" Krogan. However, I can impose that the culture of war and dominance between clans still remains and how the majority of Krogan are brutes willing to lay down their lives for credits. The only change in Krogan is numbers. As for their lust for war and dominance hasn't changed pre & post intervention.

 

Oooooh. Going to be amusing to clean some clocks on this one.

 

1: What proof do you have that Wrex will go back to the old ways if he is alone. Any evidence of this to back that statement, if not, then you got nothing to substantiate this considering Wrex didnt have Eve in ME2, and he still had the clans bent over the barrel.

 

2: You threw out a red herring at me? Thats rich. Charr's relationship is irrelevant. The point to actually look at is that he wasnt acting for himself. He wasnt thinking of just himself. What he wanted was not on his list of priorities. The needs of others were on his list of priorities. I do remind you that he was fighting in a war he didnt have to take part in, and died on a godforsaken rock fighting for others that did not include himself.

 

3: While you have a point on what little we know of Thax's assistant, its still rendered moot for the most part because of the calm demeanor is not something common to Krogan, and still goes against the point you made.

 

Your edit is a contradiction as well. While admitting to a fault, you still went on to generalize the entire race as a whole.

[Excella Gionne]

Look at it from this perspective. Let's say that one of the Council races in the MEU decided that it would be a great idea if they made an army of human clones to use as a massive, disposable fighting force to unleash on their enemies. The human race would be outraged and would do whatever they could to stop it. They are manufacturing slaves of our own species, and these slaves, whether anyone likes it or not, would be representative of us. The same would be true of the krogan. How the galaxy views their species as a whole can now hinge completely on what the slaves' masters decide to do with them. Aside from the serious ethical concerns (which are unavoidable), there's a serious conflict of interest. The people who control this army can set them upon anyone they wish, potentially with no concern with how this may affect relations the krogan may have with other groups in galactic society.

 

As for the utility of it, I think MEU is kind of weird in its serious lack of drones, despite the ability to create robots that can effectively do the fighting for you. Frankly, I don't see how clones are better than robots, which require no food, and can be freely destroyed and recycled with zero issues. They don't even have to use AI's.

They don't want to use robots, because they'd be sending some low tech robots to go and fight super high tech synthetics. If reapers could already manipulate Geth already, robots would prove a liability and a danger if they were hacked by reapers. For organics, it's harder to manipulate, but because indoctrination can be forced within a very short amount of time, and also, the clones cannot really think for themselves, they eventually are easy cannon fodder for the reapers to indoctrinate. Either way, it's bad all over. But yeah, I agree with what you said in overall of your post. The creators can become the enemy, and if the clones are representation of that particular species, it is bad reputation and it shows false representation of the particular species.

[KaiserShep]

I meant to frame this in the setting that robots would be used to fight regular enemies like batarian extremists or mercs, not reapers.

[Kabooooom]

I'm surprised this debate went in this direction, to be honest. The problem isn't in comparing "past" or "present" Krogan. It has nothing to do with their society, or whether some individuals exhibit aggression and others pacifism (how is that even an argument anyways?).

The problem stems solely from their biology, which isn't hard to comprehend but for some reason is largely ignored by some people. Specifically, their reproductive rate is problematic. When given favorable environments, they expand to the point that resources become strained. And when resources are strained, conflict results. It's basic ecology. Mordin tells you that, and he tells you that every simulation resulted in war, and every variable was accounted for- and I tend to believe him on that.

The ONLY way that a cured genophage would not eventually result in conflict post-Destroy - yes, regardless of who leads them (note I said eventually) - is if the Krogan voluntarily check their own population growth. The Salarians did it. We will have to do it to ourselves in the real world eventually too. It is possible, but extremely hard for a species to do. I gave the Krogan the chance to be able to do that. Plus, I needed their support for the war. Hopefully, the future galaxy or an enlightened Krogan would prevent a second rebellion long before they could become a problem. But that is certainly questionable, and people are right to have doubts about a post-genophage galactic landscape.

The other aspect of their biology that is different from when they were in their golden age Pre nuclear holocaust is the blood rage. Their society considered this highly problematic back then. It makes one wonder how it may contribute to future destabilization of a society, but I still think their reproductive rate is by far the primary problem.

[Excella Gionne]

I meant to frame this in the setting that robots would be used to fight regular enemies like batarian extremists or mercs, not reapers.

Yeah, I figured I was missing a certain context. But wouldn't the robots be hack'able? Eclipse are notorious for mechs...

[KaiserShep]

If you land an unmanned drop ship on top of a merc base and YMIR mechs stomp out and fire their way inside and simply detonate heavy explosives installed in them, there's nothing to hack

There's also telepresence. In Arrival, Shepard remotely operates a LOKI mech to make a break for it.

[Excella Gionne]

If you land an unmanned drop ship on top of a merc base and YMIR mechs stomp out and fire their way inside and simply detonate heavy explosives installed in them, there's nothing to hack

There's also telepresence. In Arrival, Shepard remotely operates a LOKI mech to make a break for it.

Well, there is a mission in ME2 where you simply guide a YMIR mech. LOL! And then you feed it power cells. Omnomnomnom! So you're talking about suicide mechs that are designed to get the job done in the easiest way possible without the chance of being sabotaged or hacked?

[KaiserShep]

I don't suppose that would be necessary under most conditions. Well trained soldiers can deal with threats like batarians or blood pack goons, and if so inclined, you can just bomb the site from orbit. Imagine a "rod from god" weapon, a kinetic energy weapon that just uses a tungsten rod to send them to hell. With mass accelerator tech this advanced, it can easily be done.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

I'm surprised this debate went in this direction, to be honest. The problem isn't in comparing "past" or "present" Krogan. It has nothing to do with their society, or whether some individuals exhibit aggression and others pacifism (how is that even an argument anyways?).

The problem stems solely from their biology, 

 

Going to stop you there. Their biology is pretty well ****ed up and out of left field for the most part, and their reproduction in particular is heavily contradictory to what we are shown compared to what we are told.

[Kabooooom]

Going to stop you there. Their biology is pretty well ****ed up and out of left field for the most part, and their reproduction in particular is heavily contradictory to what we are shown compared to what we are told.

My background is in biology, and I didnt have a particular problem with their biology except that the writers took it to an unbelievable extreme. Organ redundancy, for example, is exhibited even by animals on Earth, although not to the extreme of apparent quadrilateral symmetry of internal organs, which is apparently what the Krogan have, and that is not terribly unbelievable to me as it would simply reflect a secondary and perpendicular plane of internal symmetry during embryonic development. Nothing like that exists on earth, but this is a sci-fi story. I also didn't have a problem with their reproductive rate (except that it too was taken to an extreme). They are an r-selected species, for reasons that I explained earlier in this discussion in full. Suffice it to say, they always had a high mortality rate due to the harshness of Tuchanka prior to the rise of their civilization.

It's a science fiction story. You can't ignore consequences that arise from their described biology just because you disagree with it from a writing/realism standpoint.

[Obadiah]

Uh... contraceptives?

[Kabooooom]

Uh... contraceptives?

I made a comment/joke here once about how they apparently don't have Krogan birth control in the mass effect universe, because a sterilization plague seemed more appropriate to the Salarians.

[Excella Gionne]

I don't suppose that would be necessary under most conditions. Well trained soldiers can deal with threats like batarians or blood pack goons, and if so inclined, you can just bomb the site from orbit. Imagine a "rod from god" weapon, a kinetic energy weapon that just uses a tungsten rod to send them to hell. With mass accelerator tech this advanced, it can easily be done.

End the fight before it gets dirty, or before it even starts? Kinda sounds like a super advanced weapon from orbit that just obliterates the crap out of what it's aiming at. A bit overpowered much?

[KaiserShep]

Uh... contraceptives?

Tired of raising more mouths than your clan can handle? Try varren skin contraceptives. Bring the strength of the kraant to your den. By Elkoss Combine.

[KaiserShep]

End the fight before it gets dirty, or before it even starts? Kinda sounds like a super advanced weapon from orbit that just obliterates the crap out of what it's aiming at. A bit overpowered much?

Perfect stocking stuffer for the turians, no?

[Kabooooom]

Tired of raising more mouths than your clan can handle? Try varren skin contraceptives. Bring the strength of the kraant to your den. By Elkoss Combine.

This post made me lol. Clever. Although, I was thinking more along the lines of the Salarians continuously dumping birth control into their water supply and then playing dumb when the male Krogan develop secondary sex characteristics (if they even have any).

[KaiserShep]

I imagine the krogan would be pretty resistant to medication that only temporarily manipulates their hormonal responses, what with all their serious backup systems.

[Kabooooom]

I imagine the krogan would be pretty resistant to medication that only temporarily manipulates their hormonal responses, what with all their serious backup systems.

Yes, that's why I wasn't serious about it. Perhaps even more importantly, something like that is far messier, less elegant, and more difficult to control and ensure efficacy across every Krogan than the genophage. And the Salarians usually don't go the convoluted route. Except with their reproduction contracts.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

@Tsunayoshi

1. What proof do you have Wrex will wont go back to the old ways alone or not? What wrex does after is peer speculation on both parts.

2. HA! Your just full of it. Peer assumptions is the mother of all screw ups. This Krogan as well as Thax's assistant are Red Herrings.

My edit is only a contradiction in truth. I don't consider it a generalization but more like a stereotype against Krogan.

 

Your mother must have dropped you on your head one time too many as a baby...

 

You are the one that has to prove what they claimed. I dont have to prove anything since the game literally lays it out plain as day as to what Wrex is for and against. The rest of your dismissals are a disgusting joke and and an equally disgusting attempt to save face.

[Kabooooom]

Your mother must have dropped you on your head one time too many as a baby...

You are the one that has to prove what they claimed. I dont have to prove anything since the game literally lays it out plain as day as to what Wrex is for and against. The rest of your dismissals are a disgusting joke and and an equally disgusting attempt to save face.

Hey now, no need to get mean. We're all Internet friends here. Kumbaya and sh*t, man. Hakuna matata or whatever.