282 réponses à ce sujet

[Vortex13]

Compared to the Council's punishment of the Rachni, I don't really see the Genophage as harsh.

 

Limiting fertility rates <<<<<< the total (as far as everyone knew), systematic, extermination of a sentient species IMO.

 

The Rachni Wars were brutal, but so were the Krogan Rebellions. We don't have a lot of info on the Rachni's invasion of Citadel space, but we do have accounts of the Krogan redirecting asteroids into Turian colonies; which cause way more damage to a planet and its population then an invasion would. 

[Bardox9]

One of the reasons that I don't believe that the Krogan Genophage-cured runaway population would be a threat the galaxy, is that the Krogan are now dispersed and somewhat more integrated into galactic society. Even if Wreave managed to create a powerful unified empire on Tuchanka and were to start threatening other races, the Krogan are not a unified hivemind. There's every chance that factions within Krogan society would aid the Council and stop the Krogan Empire in order to prevent another Genophage-type backlash.

Meanwhile, curing the Genophage gives more moderate Krogan factions a chance to grow.

The Genophage may have been necessary to end the Krogan rebellion, but its also stunted their development as a society. Instead of factions being able to quietly move to one side, and grow/thrive on their own, and compete with the dominant Krogan culture, they're all locked into an endless competition for domination and control of the fertile females.

That's why Maelon's use of the word "Renaissance" was appropriate in ME2. The more Krogan born (with the Genophage slowly being overcome before Mordin's upgrade) could have resulted in a flourishing of new ideas. Also thematically appropriate because it would follow the Krogan "Dark Age".

 

A fair argument for curing the Genophage. Problem... assumes facts not in evidence. There is nothing to support the notion that the Krogan would suddenly become less violent and engage in a cultural renaissance should the Genophage be cured. There is mountains of evidence to support the notion that the Krogan would grow their population without even attempting to control it, overcrowd their worlds, and violently expand again.

 

After the Reaper invasion, the military might of the other races will be weaker than it has been since the Krogan rebellions. Those pushing for revenge will be more forceful than ever. Only by allowing the Genophage to continue will these "moderate Krogan factions" (if they exist) be able to gain a foothold in shaping the future of the Krogan race. Moderate Krogan would focus on breeding while the extremists waste their warriors in pointless infighting. The lower the population gets, the more influence a moderate would have.

 

I am for creating the cure, but as for using it... not yet. I want to believe they are ready, but I just don't see enough evidence proving they are. The risks are too great for a leap of faith.

[Obadiah]

I assume the Salarian models are as accurate as they can be given the data they use.

However, in a universe where the Geonphage is sabotaged, the Krogan's behavior is one in which their "allies" are willing to trick them into wiping themselves out to defend their own interests. The society is basically justifying the Krogan's violent domineering attitude.

If the Krogan are going to join the fight, I think they deserve the chance to prove themselves able to live in some kind of peaceful co-existence without the Genophage.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The problem was that Bioware gave us a species with a completely broken reproduction model. The "genophage cure" that Mordin works on bypasses the genophage rather than actually reversing it. So now you've got a new problem after the war. The Krogan will want a new world in payment for their help. Have fun.

[Excella Gionne]

T'was not broken until EDI had to mention it......

[Obadiah]

Great. Blame the AI...

[Excella Gionne]

EDI made it very clear in ME3 that the krogan were a broken race with a fantasized reproduction rate. ME1 and ME2 kept it vague while other things in ME3 assumed that they only had live births and a child per birth only.

[Display Name Owner]

Imo the only thing that makes the Genophage harsh is the fact that it causes Krogan young to die in the womb rather than preventing them from developing in the first place. That's pretty nasty. But presumably it was the best the Salarians could manage for whatever reason. 

 

The actual cutting down of Krogan numbers is hardly a crime though. I know tampering with another species in that way is unethical, but the Krogan really left the other races with no choice. The Salarians also reproduce in high numbers, but they use a system to manage their birth rates. Fair enough, the Krogan come from Tuchanka, where it's so dangerous that the only way to survive as a species is to produce large numbers in the hopes that enough of them will survive, but the fact that they refused to give any thought to how they should handle themselves when they expanded beyond Tuchanka is just idiotic of them. If they insist on expanding unchecked and using violence as the means, the Genophage was the only answer. The alternative is constantly culling them through never ending war, which is worse for everyone and never would have worked given how quickly Krogan expand.

 

I know it's not fair to punish the Krogan of the present for the crimes of their ancestors, but it doesn't really help that many of them are insistent on committing the very same crimes (Wreav, Uvenk, etc. who are just representative of a large chunk of the species). Even Wrex, for all his reformist ideas, hasn't even thought about keeping Krogan numbers in check, in ME3 he's already demanding planets and the Krogan seem keen on making as many babies as they possibly can. The way it looks, the Krogan are a ticking bomb no matter who's in charge.

 

So yeah, the Krogan are stupid as a collective species tbh.

[Vortex13]

A little off topic but….

 

The whole point of the Genophage cure was to get the Krogan to help out with the war; tactfully speaking. For reliable shock troops though, I really wish that we could have had the option of going with the Rachni instead of the Krogan.

 

I mean Rachni are capable of breeding combat capable soldiers that are (nearly) even with the Krogan in a matter of weeks; and unlike the Krogan they don't require weapons or armor to fight. Also, due to their hive mind mentality Rachni are immune to indoctrination. Sure the Queen is a vulnerability, but keeping her out of the front lines ensures that disciplined (no real individuality in a hive mind) soldiers, with an astonishing reproduction rate, and almost self sufficient army is at your beck and call.

 

After the War the Rachni would be even easier to integrate into Galactic society then the Krogan, given that they are naturally isolationistic, and can thrive on hostile worlds; so no real reason for Rachni to demand occupied planets; and even if Council races were to share a planet with the Rachni, there wouldn't necessarily be a competition for resources since Rachni; much like terrestrial ants or bees; are quite capable of checking their numbers when living space is at a premium.

[KaiserShep]

EDI made it very clear in ME3 that the krogan were a broken race with a fantasized reproduction rate. ME1 and ME2 kept it vague while other things in ME3 assumed that they only had live births and a child per birth only.

Heh, maybe EDI was trolling us.

 

Shepard: "EDI, are you kidding me right now?"

EDI: "I am not, Shepard. In fact, some krogan have been known to split apart, creating two separate specimens."

 

Shepard: ...

[Obadiah]

I guess people see the point of the Genophage cure differently. My Sheps just generally think the Genophage has persisted long past its necessity, and the "nightmare" needs to come to an end. That Shepard has the opportunity to do that, and have the Krogan fight side by side with the other factions of the galaxy, as a kind of reintegration in which they rescue their former oppressors, is a plus.

[Farangbaa]

My Shepard's usually 'cure' out of necessity for Krogan forces. Parentheses cause, well, the Salarians.

[Bardox9]

A little off topic but….

 

The whole point of the Genophage cure was to get the Krogan to help out with the war; tactfully speaking. For reliable shock troops though, I really wish that we could have had the option of going with the Rachni instead of the Krogan.

 

I mean Rachni are capable of breeding combat capable soldiers that are (nearly) even with the Krogan in a matter of weeks; and unlike the Krogan they don't require weapons or armor to fight. Also, due to their hive mind mentality Rachni are immune to indoctrination. Sure the Queen is a vulnerability, but keeping her out of the front lines ensures that disciplined (no real individuality in a hive mind) soldiers, with an astonishing reproduction rate, and almost self sufficient army is at your beck and call.

 

After the War the Rachni would be even easier to integrate into Galactic society then the Krogan, given that they are naturally isolationistic, and can thrive on hostile worlds; so no real reason for Rachni to demand occupied planets; and even if Council races were to share a planet with the Rachni, there wouldn't necessarily be a competition for resources since Rachni; much like terrestrial ants or bees; are quite capable of checking their numbers when living space is at a premium.

 

You get a "like" for saying it.

 

The problem is how one would communicate with a Rachni. The Rachni use some form of telepathy for communication. Not going to have a pleasant chat with someone who can only shriek and hiss at you. Would have to develop a system similar to what the Hanar use.

[Vortex13]

You get a "like" for saying it.

 

The problem is how one would communicate with a Rachni. The Rachni use some form of telepathy for communication. Not going to have a pleasant chat with someone who can only shriek and hiss at you. Would have to develop a system similar to what the Hanar use.

 

That would be an issue at first, but I don't think that equipping each Rachni soldier with a simple VI translator would be too hard; I mean the Alliance can mass produce the EDI robots for use on the battlefield (according to the MP DLC), I would imagine that a mass produced translation software program would be far easier to accomplish. Or if the MP comparison doesn't fit, then consider the comparison between the Rachni and the Krogan.

 

Which would be easier to supply to soldiers fighting across the galaxy:

 

• A full suit of combat armor, as well as weapons and thermal clips? 

 

Or

 

• A simple VI program?

 

Failing that, why not have a 'speaker' for each battalion of Rachni soldiers? Something like an Asari that the Rachni Queen can 'speak' through to communicate with the other races?  

 

Also considering that individual Rachni soldiers are intelligent despite being part of the hive mind, I'm sure that a very basic form of communication would be possible; something like a loud hiss for attack, or a low growl for defend. Obviously there would be limits to such limited communication, but the Reaper war; just like any other war; requires impromptu tactics dealing with unplanned situations for the soldiers on the ground.

[Kabooooom]

You get a "like" for saying it.

The problem is how one would communicate with a Rachni. The Rachni use some form of telepathy for communication. Not going to have a pleasant chat with someone who can only shriek and hiss at you. Would have to develop a system similar to what the Hanar use.

Remember the Asari on Ilium who communicated with the Rachni queen after her ship crashed? The Asari are capable of communicating with them, presumably via their unique method of merging minds.

Or, conversely, keep a few dead bodies lying around. Communication never seemed particularly problematic.

[congokong]

I'm not sure what I hear more about on the boards: the genophage or ME3's ending. Eh, probably the ending.

 

It's the endless tug of war between practicality and idealism. The ridiculous 1,000 egg/year default birth rate was meant to challenge gamers who cling to idealism because there's no way in hell such a horrifying number could ever stop rapid overpopulation growth that would put the conflict on Thane's homeworld to shame. Sigh. People would still say "Wrex and Eve will make it work" and other red herrings if the number was 1,000,000/year.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

I'm not sure what I hear more about on the boards: the genophage or ME3's ending. Eh, probably the ending.

 

It's the endless tug of war between practicality and idealism. The ridiculous 1,000 egg/year default birth rate was meant to challenge gamers who cling to idealism because there's no way in hell such a horrifying number could ever stop rapid overpopulation growth that would put the conflict on Thane's homeworld to shame. Sigh. People would still say "Wrex and Eve will make it work" and other red herrings if the number was 1,000,000/year.

 

That number is pure BS though, which everyone disregards because its bloody impossible based on what we learn in game.

[Kabooooom]

That number is pure BS though, which everyone disregards because its bloody impossible based on what we learn in game.

You've said this before and I commented on it. The number is absurdly high, yes, but what exactly did we "learn in the game" that contradicts it, specifically?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You've said this before and I commented on it. The number is absurdly high, yes, but what exactly did we "learn in the game" that contradicts it, specifically?

 

 

We learned that the Krogan can't control "their urges." - the Dalatrass makes this comment. Of course this is ignored, too. The Krogan population rapidly spread throughout the galaxy after the rachni war - Codex, also ignored. 

 

I kill Wrex in ME1 now. Fake the genophage cure in ME3. Metagaming at its finest.

[jtav]

Well killing Wrex makes the whole arc more intriguing anyway.

[Obadiah]

Er... isn't it widely agreed that the Dalatrass' comment was rascist nonesense, and not to be taken seriously seeing as the Krogan are quite obviously sentients capable of self-control?

Doesn't Wrex's death indicate the Krogan will not always simply attack (since he was actually speaking and didn't pull the trigger)?

No? Carry on.

[Kabooooom]

We learned that the Krogan can't control "their urges." - the Dalatrass makes this comment. Of course this is ignored, too. The Krogan population rapidly spread throughout the galaxy after the rachni war - Codex, also ignored.

I kill Wrex in ME1 now. Fake the genophage cure in ME3. Metagaming at its finest.

The comment she makes was an example of xenoracism, and I don't see how the codex was ignored on that. I may have misinterpreted your post, and I apologize if so, because I don't see why you would think that concern over their reproductive rate was ignored. Their potential post-war spread throughout the galaxy was always a concern, expressed by multiple characters in the story and legitimately concerned me enough that I considered not curing the genophage because of it. I also frequently point out in these discussions that it is a legitimate concern even IF Wrex is in charge and the EC scenes show a relative peace. Peace doesn't last forever, especially with population expansion and limited resources, and the only way to really avert future conflict is if the Krogan voluntarily check their own numbers.

Also neither of these things really answers the question that I posed to Tsunayoshi, in which I asked for clarification of his position.

[KaiserShep]

We learned that the Krogan can't control "their urges." - the Dalatrass makes this comment. Of course this is ignored, too.

 

I think the biggest problem with the Dalatrass position, other than her shrill tone of voice, is basically this line: After that you ceased to be useful.

 

In the same amount of time that the Daltrass moaned about curing the genophage, she could have simply said that the krogan were taking the territory of others and killing people in droves. To say that they "ceased to be useful" makes it sound like they simply gave them the genophage undeservedly. Of course, ME1 kind of glosses over this too, because if you persuade Wrex to put his weapon down, he even says they neutered them all as "thanks".

[Kabooooom]

I think the biggest problem with the Dalatrass position, other than her shrill tone of voice, is basically this line: After that you ceased to be useful.

In the same amount of time that the Daltrass moaned about curing the genophage, she could have simply said that the krogan were taking the territory of others and killing people in droves. To say that they "ceased to be useful" makes it sound like they simply gave them the genophage undeservedly. Of course, ME1 kind of glosses over this too, because if you persuade Wrex to put his weapon down, he even says they neutered them all as "thanks".

It's just a difference of perspective. Wrex and the Krogan are understandably pissed that they were infected with a sterility virus. The fact that they were infected with a sterility virus because they were being enormous assholes, aggressively taking colony worlds from other species, dropping asteroids on worlds to kill countless civilians as collateral and refusing to back down is sort of beside the point for them.

Seldom does a an individual, and in the case the majority of a species, accept any punishment enacted upon them by others
as being fair for a crime they committed.

[Vortex13]

It's just a difference of perspective. Wrex and the Krogan are understandably pissed that they were infected with a sterility virus. The fact that they were infected with a sterility virus because they were being enormous assholes, aggressively taking colony worlds from other species, dropping asteroids on worlds to kill countless civilians as collateral and refusing to back down is sort of beside the point for them.

Seldom does a an individual, and in the case the majority of a species, accept any punishment enacted upon them by others
as being fair for a crime they committed.

 

 

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the Rachni Queen is more "accepting" of the Rachni Wars and peoples' view of the Rachni of terrifying monsters then the Krogan are. While she does attempt to resist her death in ME 1, she accepts the choice to leave her in ME 3 if you spared her.