282 réponses à ce sujet

[Kabooooom]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the Rachni Queen is more "accepting" of the Rachni Wars and peoples' view of the Rachni of terrifying monsters then the Krogan are. While she does attempt to resist her death in ME 1, she accepts the choice to leave her in ME 3 if you spared her.

The Rachni queen is a unique case though, as she has inherited the genetic memories from queens that lived during the wars. For most Krogan that are alive, they are the generation after the generation that participated in the Rebellions. They were told what happened, but did not directly participate and they still bear the punishment. Most individuals would consider that unfair, despite the actions of their forefathers rendering it necessary.

[congokong]

Er... isn't it widely agreed that the Dalatrass' comment was rascist nonesense, and not to be taken seriously seeing as the Krogan are quite obviously sentients capable of self-control?
 

The Dalatrass is a straw man but she's right. Humans haven't had self-control over their population at roughly 1 possible offspring per year but the krogan can manage it at 1,000 eggs/year?

 

 

I think the biggest problem with the Dalatrass position, other than her shrill tone of voice, is basically this line: After that you ceased to be useful.

 

In the same amount of time that the Daltrass moaned about curing the genophage, she could have simply said that the krogan were taking the territory of others and killing people in droves. To say that they "ceased to be useful" makes it sound like they simply gave them the genophage undeservedly. Of course, ME1 kind of glosses over this too, because if you persuade Wrex to put his weapon down, he even says they neutered them all as "thanks".

 

Again, the dalatrass is a straw man trying to manipulate players' emotions into thinking curing the genophage is a good idea when statistically it isn't. I remember those two absurd examples you mentioned that rewrite history as if the krogan were given the genophage after the rachni war just because they weren't needed anymore which is BS.

[congokong]

It's just a difference of perspective. Wrex and the Krogan are understandably pissed that they were infected with a sterility virus. The fact that they were infected with a sterility virus because they were being enormous assholes, aggressively taking colony worlds from other species, dropping asteroids on worlds to kill countless civilians as collateral and refusing to back down is sort of beside the point for them.

Seldom does a an individual, and in the case the majority of a species, accept any punishment enacted upon them by others
as being fair for a crime they committed.

It just seems that the krogan use the genophage as a scapegoat for problems caused from their own aggression. Their barbarism and love for combat has caused them to kill each other, not colonize worlds, and become mercenaries because apparently being civil and having a regular job isn't an option. Nor is it an option for them to try curing the genophage themselves instead of bitching about it. They've had 1450 years to do it. Then they blame these hardships on the genophage because they don't want to take responsibility for the results of their own behavior. This attitude has allowed them to view a monstrous population explosion from a genophage cure as a panacea.

 

If a krogan female can have one offspring per year on average then there shouldn't be a problem with reproduction but the genophage lore has never been consistent with things like "fertile females."

[Obadiah]

With respect to Krogan mating behavior ("urges"), the Genophage in fact forces the current Krogan to behave the way that their ancestors did in order to maintain their population so that there are enough live births to keep a stable population.

[cap and gown]

I see people are still blaming EDI's dialogue for some kind of retcon. This totally ignores Mordin's figure of 1 in 1000 as a replacement level of reproduction. EDI's comment was not pulled out of thin air. It was based on cannon dialogue in ME2.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

You've said this before and I commented on it. The number is absurdly high, yes, but what exactly did we "learn in the game" that contradicts it, specifically?

See below since someone else stepped on that mine.

 

The Dalatrass is a straw man but she's right. Humans haven't had self-control over their population at roughly 1 possible offspring per year but the krogan can manage it at 1,000 eggs/year?

The Dalatrass is a ****ing incompetent ****. Considering her insanely flawed logic and loss of control over STG, that woman doesnt have the means to control more than the contents of her dress. Also bullshit number is straight bullshit.

 

I see people are still blaming EDI's dialogue for some kind of retcon. This totally ignores Mordin's figure of 1 in 1000 as a replacement level of reproduction. EDI's comment was not pulled out of thin air. It was based on cannon dialogue in ME2.

 

If what EDI and Mordin said were true, then we'd see kiddies all over the damn place in the Epilogue instead of parents with ONE child. That means something is hella wrong. Either its the writers talking out of their assholes, which seems normal for a certain pair we all hate, and stating stuff with nothing to back it up. Or the Dalatrass was talking out of her cloaca and the Krogan have much more control than she liked everyone else to believe.

 

I like to think that the completely unsupported statements are what's wrong and not the headcanon'd stuff that we just use to guess with on the other point.

[Daemul]

No OP, the Genophage was not harsh, it was that, or kill them all, the Turians actually showed them mercy. The Krogan should thank their lucky stars that they were dealing with the Turians and Salarians instead of a race like the Protheans, who would have bombed them to extinction without a second thought, and honestly, they would have deserved it.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

No OP, the Genophage was not harsh, it was that, or kill them all, the Turians actually showed them mercy. The Krogan should thank their lucky stars that they were dealing with the Turians and Salarians instead of a race like the Protheans, who would have bombed them to extinction without a second thought, and honestly, they would have deserved it.

 

Except the Turians would have bombed the Krogan to hell, or did I just imagine that mission with the big planet cracking bomb buried underground, on a fault line.

[Daemul]

Except the Turians would have bombed the Krogan to hell, or did I just imagine that mission with the big planet cracking bomb buried underground, on a fault line.

The Turians had a back up plan in case their original plan failed, something you would expect anyone with minimal competence to plan for. Wiping out the Krogan wasn't their first option, but if the Genophage didn't stop them, the Turians would have detonated the bomb(s?) and destroyed them for good.

Like I said, it was either neuter them or wipe them out, the Turians planned for both, but went with the path they saw as most moral and ethical first, which is what most would see as the most moral and ethical out of the two options I suppose.

[Obadiah]

I think they just went with the plan that was deployable first. I doubt the Turians would have been able to plant a giant bomb on Tuchanka with the Krogan at full strength during the rebellions.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The Turians had a back up plan in case their original plan failed, something you would expect anyone with minimal competence to plan for. Wiping out the Krogan wasn't their first option, but if the Genophage didn't stop them, the Turians would have detonated the bomb(s?) and destroyed them for good.

Like I said, it was either neuter them or wipe them out, the Turians planned for both, but went with the path they saw as most moral and ethical first, which is what most would see as the most moral and ethical out of the two options I suppose.

 

I was just thinking about the turians' Tuchanka bomb earlier today. I don't get it.

 

You can let it go off in ME3, yet it only kills krogan in the Kelphic Valley, not like their whole planet. That doesn't seem effective enough for something intended to target the whole race like the genophage. Am I missing something here?

[SporkFu]

I was just thinking about the turians' Tuchanka bomb earlier today. I don't get it.

 

You can let it go off in ME3, yet it only kills krogan in the Kelphic Valley, not like their whole planet. That doesn't seem effective enough for something intended to target the whole race like the genophage. Am I missing something here?

Isn't the Kelphic Valley the most densely populated part of Tuchanka in ME3? ... Perhaps there wouldn't be enough Krogan left to maintain a viable population. 

 

Or it might be just the initial blast that destroys the Kelphic Valley, and the aftermath could be like an asteroid hitting the planet; An ELE if you will. 

[Kabooooom]

If what EDI and Mordin said were true, then we'd see kiddies all over the damn place in the Epilogue instead of parents with ONE child. That means something is hella wrong. Either its the writers talking out of their assholes, which seems normal for a certain pair we all hate, and stating stuff with nothing to back it up. Or the Dalatrass was talking out of her cloaca and the Krogan have much more control than she liked everyone else to believe.

I like to think that the completely unsupported statements are what's wrong and not the headcanon'd stuff that we just use to guess with on the other point.

Wait, so let me get this straight- the entire reason that you disregard in game dialogue from at least two different and very reliable sources (EDI and Mordin, especially Mordin) and the Codex on the Krogan birth rate is because there is a still frame scene of two Krogan holding one child in the extended cut?

That doesn't really make sense man. Maybe they just didn't show multiple babies in the extended cut for artistic purposes, hell they probably just forgot (this is most likely). But either way, a large amount of in game dialogue from multiple sources and the codex should trump a single image in a series of vague images in a hastily compiled epilogue.

I thought you actually were going to cite in-game dialogue that was contradictory, so I was curious about that because I hadn't encountered it.

[cap and gown]

 Maybe they just didn't show multiple babies in the extended cut for artistic purposes, hell they probably just forgot (this is most likely).

 

No, they didn't "forget". They simply know what will yank people's emotional chains and what won't. Those still frames are no different than Eve commenting on holding her stillborn child in her arms. As in one child. Whenever the writers want to yank our fee-fees they give the Krogan a human reproduction rate: i.e. one child per year. They know perfectly well that trying to hold a 1000 still born babies in your arms is so ridiculous no one would believe it and therefore no on would care. Its the same story with that Krogan on Tuchanka who talks about "my son". Dude, if you had been with a fertile female, you wouldn't have had "a" son. You would have had hundreds. And hundreds of daughters as well. Every time the writers want to actually make us care about the Krogan they are forced into anthropomorphizing their reproduction rate. Logic, science, and emotion are constantly at war with each other in the MEU.

[Daemul]

Cap and gown knows what's up. There's a hell of a lot of attempts at emotional manipulation going on in ME3. Wrex's line about his unborn son always gets me because it's such a blatant example of it.

[Excella Gionne]

BioWare ruined krogan reproduction. And yes, you never hear a krogan talk about a bunch of their children, and only one, either it's genophage-wise or not, their fantasized reproduction is basically just words... I headcannon their unrealistic reproduction rate as non-existent, only then will things make a little more sense.

[Obadiah]

EDI's comment is that Krogan females can produce clutches of "up to" 1000 fertilized eggs over the course of a year, which would be about 3 fertilized eggs a day (if EDI meant Earth years, and Krogan females just laid eggs every day). I reconcile this with the "still born" comment of earlier games to indicate that the Krogan lay eggs with live embryo, that the Krogan babies that grow within the egg are initially alive, and then die off near the time when they would have hatched, and then the adult Krogan crack the eggs open themselves to find dead babies inside.

Since the Genophage forces a type of behavior from the Krogan (constantly mating), a type of behavior that population projections will ALWAYS show as exploding if the Genophage is cured, the question for me isn't about their birth rate, the question is how will they behave with that Genophage cured birthrate. Will they simply pump out children as fast as they can endlessly, or will they encourage a high birthrate initially so they can rebuild, then reduce or discourage it as their population reaches some optimum level. Remember, they have to spend resources raising these kids and competing with them once they reach adulthood. Its not as if Krogan don't compete and fight amongst themselves.

There is enough discussion amongst the Krogan in the game to indicate to me that they are not mindless breeding machines, nor do they want to be breeding machines. There is enough discussion amongst them in the game to indicate to me that though they may want revenge, they realize the kind of retaliation they could receive if they engaged again in an all out war.

[cap and gown]

BioWare ruined krogan reproduction. And yes, you never hear a krogan talk about a bunch of their children, and only one, either it's genophage-wise or not, their fantasized reproduction is basically just words... I headcannon their unrealistic reproduction rate as non-existent, only then will things make a little more sense.

 

The core problem is Patrick Weekes. He was the writer for Mordin in ME2. I heard him talk about writing the Mordin character. He said he was afraid that everyone loved Wrex in ME1 so they would automatically despise Mordin as a war criminal. So he decided he had to make Mordin seem less like a criminal and explain his actions as possibly justified. So he just retcon'ed the genophage. Instead of appearing to be a "sterility plague" that would eventually wipe out the Krogan, it was turned into involuntary birth control that stabilized population. The problem was, how do you reconcile a stable population with genocide? Trying to untangle the knots Weekes created proved to be impossible.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

No, they didn't "forget". They simply know what will yank people's emotional chains and what won't. Those still frames are no different than Eve commenting on holding her stillborn child in her arms. As in one child. Whenever the writers want to yank our fee-fees they give the Krogan a human reproduction rate: i.e. one child per year. They know perfectly well that trying to hold a 1000 still born babies in your arms is so ridiculous no one would believe it and therefore no on would care. Its the same story with that Krogan on Tuchanka who talks about "my son". Dude, if you had been with a fertile female, you wouldn't have had "a" son. You would have had hundreds. And hundreds of daughters as well. Every time the writers want to actually make us care about the Krogan they are forced into anthropomorphizing their reproduction rate. Logic, science, and emotion are constantly at war with each other in the MEU.

Cap and gown knows what's up. There's a hell of a lot of attempts at emotional manipulation going on in ME3. Wrex's line about his unborn son always gets me because it's such a blatant example of it.

 

And this is why I dont really like to argue when I'm tired. Lines like this in game also are fairly damning about the what is said about the reproduction rate and what we see

[Obadiah]

Its just a different perspective. The Genophage description is still the same in the codex, it was still meant to be a bioweapon, and it was still controversial when deployed. The controversy was probably the same thing when it was deployed, "this is genocide" vs "it stabilizes their population (rate?) to pre-industrial levels so they can't maintain this war." The player is now simply party to both sides of the argument.

Mordin's loyalty mission showed that he's been all numbers, and that his statistical models couldn't predict the reaction Krogan would have. That reaction he encounters is "new data".

[cap and gown]

Mordin's loyalty mission showed that he's been all numbers that his statistical models couldn't predict the reaction Krogan would have. That reaction he encounters is "new data".

 

The problem with that is that the Krogan have already been living with the genophage for 1400 years and their numbers are starting to increase. The "new data" is that whatever the Krogan "reaction" was, it did nothing to reduce their numbers. Mordin's modified genophage was a secret. So there was no new reaction. The only "reaction" was to the initial genophage, and that did nothing to reduce their numbers.

 

If their "reaction" to the genophage had been to reduce their numbers, then Mordin's modified genophage would never have even been necessary.

[Display Name Owner]

EDI's comment is that Krogan females can produce clutches of "up to" 1000 fertilized eggs over the course of a year, which would be about 3 fertilized eggs a day (if EDI meant Earth years, and Krogan females just laid eggs every day). I reconcile this with the "still born" comment of earlier games to indicate that the Krogan lay eggs with live embryo, that the Krogan babies that grow within the egg are initially alive, and then die off near the time when they would have hatched, and then the adult Krogan crack the eggs open themselves to find dead babies inside.

Since the Genophage forces a type of behavior from the Krogan (constantly mating), a type of behavior that population projections will ALWAYS show as exploding if the Genophage is cured, the question for me isn't about their birth rate, the question is how will they behave with that Genophage cured birthrate. Will they simply pump out children as fast as they can endlessly, or will they encourage a high birthrate initially so they can rebuild, then discourage as their population reaches some optimum level. Remember, they have to spend resources raising these kids and competing with them once they reach adulthood. Its not as is Krogan don't compete and fight amongst themselves.

There is enough discussion amongst the Krogan in the game to indicate to me that they are not mindless breeding machines, nor do they want to be breeding machines. There is enough discussion amongst them in the game to indicate to me that though they may want revenge, they realize the kind of retaliation they could receive if they engaged again in an all out war.

From the sounds of it there was never a time when the Krogan weren't constantly mating. Or mating a lot anyway. What with the dangers of Tuchanka and the lifestlye of clan warfare they'd have needed to be doing so. Going by what Wrex said, what's happening is that many Krogan are in fact foregoing mating in favour of mercenary work because they don't see the point as the chances are slim that they'll produce offspring anyway. Still, I doubt that every female would literally lay 1000 eggs a year every year, they must have devoted some time to actually choosing a mate (given how highly strength is valued on Tuchanka) and maybe taking part in the clan wars as well as whatever else it is people do with themselves.

 

Okeer says something along the lines of how the Genphage has made every surviving child precious, implying that before children were bred in numbers and the strong survived while the weak were crushed underfoot. So it would seem that the Krogan's approach was always to produce a lot of young and let evolution sort them out. Now if anything, curing the Genophage would lead to an even bigger population boom than they ever had before because of the new approach. I agree, the question is whether they'll restore their numbers (fair course of action after the Reaper War) and then slow down, but honestly I don't think they actually would. Some Krogan might want to, but there are many who share Wreav's point of view. On top of that, the clan wars look to be such an ingrained part of their culture that for any of them to stop mating would put their clan at a disadvantage they probably wouldn't want to risk taking.

[cap and gown]

One other data point to consider: When Maelon tries to justify his work, he does not claim that the genophage will result in a genocide in the way we normally think of that term: i.e. the death of a species. Rather, he claims the genophage resulted in a CULTURAL genocide. In other words, he is claiming that it undermined their culture, not their viability as a species.

[Obadiah]

First, by our definition of Genocide, "Cultural Genocide" is Genocide. But that's beside the point. What I think Maelon was referring to was the Krogan going extinct though cultural changes inadvertently brought on by the Salarian intention to stabilize the population and reduce the birth rate.

It is pretty much established that the Krogan population is reducing and that the Krogan are a "dying breed". Again, that's the codex entry in all three games. So whatever the intention of the Genophage, that is the effect. What happened was that the Krogan population started to increase, the Salarian projections showed that it would lead to all out war if the Krogan overcame the Genophage, so they deployed a modification to it. So as far as the Krogan population trend, the effect was probably: down, down, down, down, down, (over 1000 years), stabilized, increased, stabilized, down...

Mordin's modification was intended to stabilize the population growth rate.

The data that is new for Mordin, is that he didn't realize the extent the effect that the ongoing Genophage was having on Krogan behavior. The Krogan reaction to the Genophage is not a constant, individually or over time, as we see with Werlock, Wrex, and Wreave. There is not ONE reaction to it, which is why Mordin gives his speech about big and little pictures. That's the new data for Mordin.

[DemiserofD]

If the average krogan lives to be 1000 years old, and produces an average of one child per year, then the 1 in a thousand figure would work out; they'd produce one child in their lifespan.

 

If culturally, krogans put all their eggs from a group of women into a single giant clutch for safekeeping, that would explain the talks of giant clutches.

 

And if krogans lived for a thousand years and were ALWAYS fertile, then you'd have a rapidly expanding population explosion. Assuming most forms of birth control were impractical, then in just 20 years you'd have a 332x increase in population. Well, less than that realistically, but depending on growth rates...