282 réponses à ce sujet

[Obadiah]

I kind of like the idea that the sheer nastiness of the Genophage is eating away at the Salarians. Justifying it is turning their leadership into racists, the people that work on it (Maelon and Mordin) seem to be going a bit more crazy than others, the people on the ground (at the STG base) seem to think its usefulness is over, and their ancestors didn't want to deploy it in the first place, etc...

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I think the biggest problem with the Dalatrass position, other than her shrill tone of voice, is basically this line: After that you ceased to be useful.

 

In the same amount of time that the Daltrass moaned about curing the genophage, she could have simply said that the krogan were taking the territory of others and killing people in droves. To say that they "ceased to be useful" makes it sound like they simply gave them the genophage undeservedly. Of course, ME1 kind of glosses over this too, because if you persuade Wrex to put his weapon down, he even says they neutered them all as "thanks".

 

This is another case of the writers misleading the player through characters, like Weekes did with the Geth. If the Dalatrass had stuck to the facts that were in the codex about the Krogan expansion throughout the galaxy post Rachni War, then there would have been merit to her argurment, but the writers had her undermine herself by that "after that you ceased to be useful" comment. That was the misdirection. You actually had to read the codex to get the facts. Alas, few did and 67% cured the genophage with Wreav in charge.

 

Then the writers put "cure the genophage" as a paragon choice or in the paragon choice position, just like they put "upload the code" in the paragon position, and "let the geth die" in the renegade position.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

See below since someone else stepped on that mine.

 

The Dalatrass is a ****ing incompetent ****. Considering her insanely flawed logic and loss of control over STG, that woman doesnt have the means to control more than the contents of her dress. Also bullshit number is straight bullshit.

 

 

If what EDI and Mordin said were true, then we'd see kiddies all over the damn place in the Epilogue instead of parents with ONE child. That means something is hella wrong. Either its the writers talking out of their assholes, which seems normal for a certain pair we all hate, and stating stuff with nothing to back it up. Or the Dalatrass was talking out of her cloaca and the Krogan have much more control than she liked everyone else to believe.

 

I like to think that the completely unsupported statements are what's wrong and not the headcanon'd stuff that we just use to guess with on the other point.

 

No you're wrong. If you cure the genophage, Wrex makes remarks like "we're going to need a new planet soon, and from the looks of it you will too." followed by "you know how fast we can pop 'em out." The writers weren't talking out their asses. The number isn't BS. Krogan overpopulation is inevitable and soon after the victory. 

 

I also wouldn't put too much stock in the slides. They just show that we couldn't have won the war without the Krogan and more Krogan, and more Krogan. If you cure it. 

[cap and gown]

I think the biggest problem with the Dalatrass position, other than her shrill tone of voice, is basically this line: After that you ceased to be useful.

 

In the same amount of time that the Daltrass moaned about curing the genophage, she could have simply said that the krogan were taking the territory of others and killing people in droves. To say that they "ceased to be useful" makes it sound like they simply gave them the genophage undeservedly. Of course, ME1 kind of glosses over this too, because if you persuade Wrex to put his weapon down, he even says they neutered them all as "thanks".

 

Actually, I don't see a problem with this dialogue (bolded). This would be the Krogan point of view: gloss over the Rebellions and focus on the genophage. I can totally see a Krogan talking like this, even though it completely misrepresents why the genophage was deployed.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

This is another case of the writers misleading the player through characters, like Weekes did with the Geth. If the Dalatrass had stuck to the facts that were in the codex about the Krogan expansion throughout the galaxy post Rachni War, then there would have been merit to her argurment, but the writers had her undermine herself by that "after that you ceased to be useful" comment. That was the misdirection. You actually had to read the codex to get the facts. Alas, few did and 67% cured the genophage with Wreav in charge.

 

Then the writers put "cure the genophage" as a paragon choice or in the paragon choice position, just like they put "upload the code" in the paragon position, and "let the geth die" in the renegade position.

 

The Dalatrass' position was undermined the moment she opened her mouth at the summit. She was never willing from the beginning to work with the Krogan, and was forced by everyone else at the table to give it up or be left to burn for essentially wanting Tuchanka to be nothing more than a buffer world so that there would be no attention on Salarian space.

 

No you're wrong. If you cure the genophage, Wrex makes remarks like "we're going to need a new planet soon, and from the looks of it you will too." followed by "you know how fast we can pop 'em out." The writers weren't talking out their asses. The number isn't BS. Krogan overpopulation is inevitable and soon after the victory. 

 

I also wouldn't put too much stock in the slides. They just show that we couldn't have won the war without the Krogan and more Krogan, and more Krogan. If you cure it. 

 

Its a bit hard to say that the number isnt bullshit when the bloody ending contradicts the figures being given, and you cant prove overpopulation is an issue regardless. Using Wrex's statement that the Krogan would need another world is a shitty attempt at hiding the truth behind a blatant fallacy. They dont have the means to raise a large number of children, especially with the bullshit figures EDI gives (FYI, Mordin never states that a single female would have 1 in 1000. He states the figure for the race as a whole), so they would need a world that they could inhabit that wasnt a literal blasted out rock for the sake of ensuring that generation would survive.

 

There is also the fact that anyone and everyone making the claims that the Krogan would just **** like rabbits with no ****s given about overpopulation conveniently ignores what the effect of a resurgence of their culture (the actual thing and not the warrior/merc mentality that pretty much ruled over them all cause of the Genophage) would actually have on the Krogan with competent leadership in place. No excuses to be made for Wreav, its a wonder you cant just kill him in ME2 just to be rid of such an obviously stupid **** like him when he makes no attempt to hide when it comes down to his future plans. Wrex at least is something of a forward thinker for a Krogan, and with Eve behind him the chances of something going that bad are not worth considering.

[DemiserofD]

But Wrex and Eve are just two krogans. Either they're going to have to rigidly control their population(why cure the genophage if they're just going to do it on purpose afterwards?) or they're going to have an explosive population increase that will lead to rapid colonization and eventual war.

Anyone ever read The Mote in God's Eye? Same general principle.

 

And with the krogans expanding at ridiculous rates and with practically no deaths because of their MASSIVE lifespans, you'll basically fill up the galaxy in a thousand years. The Asari live for a thousand years but only have 4-6 children in that time period. Of course, even that leads to ridiculous population increases; assuming even half of asari have that sort of birth rate, with a starting population of 60 billion they'll be hitting 3 trillion or so before the first generation dies off.

The Krogan would be infinitely worse.  If their reproduction is anything CLOSE to as ridiculous as it's portrayed as being, there will be SERIOUS consequences. Assume a child a year. This is probably less than it really would be. Assume a starting population of 100k. In 50 years they'll have 63 quadrillion krogans. They'll completely fill up the galaxy in less than two hundred years. The krogans think that nuclear war was a tragic accident? No, it was inevitable! As food and water supplied become more and more stretched, the already violence-prone krogan will start to fight each other for resources. This leads to deaths, which leads to different factions needing to restorck their numbers, leading to even MORE births.

Eventually, traditional combat just wont be enough to keep their population in check, and they'll turn to nukes. After one group does it, all the others will, too, and soon enough the entire galaxy is one gigantic radioactive crater.

 

The only plus side of this would be if the Reapers showed up just as this galaxy-spanning war was about to start. Suddenly 80 Septendecillion Krogan have a very large, very ugly target to aim at. The reapers wouldn't stand a chance.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

But Wrex and Eve are just two krogans. Either they're going to have to rigidly control their population(why cure the genophage if they're just going to do it on purpose afterwards?) or they're going to have an explosive population increase that will lead to rapid colonization and eventual war.

Anyone ever read The Mote in God's Eye? Same general principle.

 

And with the krogans expanding at ridiculous rates and with practically no deaths because of their MASSIVE lifespans, you'll basically fill up the galaxy in a thousand years. The Asari live for a thousand years but only have 4-6 children in that time period. Of course, even that leads to ridiculous population increases; assuming even half of asari have that sort of birth rate, with a starting population of 60 billion they'll be hitting 3 trillion or so before the first generation dies off.

The Krogan would be infinitely worse.  If their reproduction is anything CLOSE to as ridiculous as it's portrayed as being, there will be SERIOUS consequences. Assume a child a year. This is probably less than it really would be. Assume a starting population of 100k. In 50 years they'll have 63 quadrillion krogans. They'll completely fill up the galaxy in less than two hundred years. The krogans think that nuclear war was a tragic accident? No, it was inevitable! As food and water supplied become more and more stretched, the already violence-prone krogan will start to fight each other for resources. This leads to deaths, which leads to different factions needing to restorck their numbers, leading to even MORE births.

Eventually, traditional combat just wont be enough to keep their population in check, and they'll turn to nukes. After one group does it, all the others will, too, and soon enough the entire galaxy is one gigantic radioactive crater.

 

The only plus side of this would be if the Reapers showed up just as this galaxy-spanning war was about to start. Suddenly 80 Septendecillion Krogan have a very large, very ugly target to aim at. The reapers wouldn't stand a chance.

 

If the resource argument held any water, Tuchanka would have gone under like the Drell homeworld did and they never would have lived long enough for an uplift.

[Daemul]

I still can't believe how high the overall Genophage cure rate among players is(92%) when the large majority had Wreave in their playthrough.I can't tell whether it's due to Compulsive Paragon Disorder, letting their heart rule their head or just plain incompetence, though the three are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Either way, it just exemplifies why the average person should/will never be given the responsibility to make decisions as critical as these, they would end up dooming us all, even if their decision was made with the best intentions. 

[cap and gown]

I still can't believe how high the overall Genophage cure rate among players is(92%) when the large majority had Wreave in their playthrough.I can't tell whether it's due to Compulsive Paragon Disorder, letting their heart rule their head or just plain incompetence, though the three are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Either way, it just exemplifies why the average person should/will never be given the responsibility to make decisions as critical as these, they would end up dooming us all, even if their decision was made with the best intentions. 

 

Actually, I cured it the first time I played and Wreav was in charge. I was new to the series, so I didn't have any of the background and Wreav is the default leader in a non-import game. I was playing blind so I didn't know how things would go down if I sabotaged it. My thinking on going through with the cure was not reflexively paragon, though, Rather, my thinking was that if I sabotaged it surely the Krogan would quickly figure out that something wasn't right when none of their pregnancies were working out and then bail on the war effort. There is no gestation period given, but I figured if I sabotaged the cure they would figure it out rather quickly and the game would penalize me by reducing my war assets. Only later did I find out that the Krogan never figure out you sabotaged the cure if Wreav is in charge.

[Obadiah]

I'm sorry, I think I've missed something. Aside from the dalatrass' comment about "urges", where is it stated that the Krogan are compelled to reproduce at a maximum rate?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I still can't believe how high the overall Genophage cure rate among players is(92%) when the large majority had Wreave in their playthrough.I can't tell whether it's due to Compulsive Paragon Disorder, letting their heart rule their head or just plain incompetence, though the three are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Either way, it just exemplifies why the average person should/will never be given the responsibility to make decisions as critical as these, they would end up dooming us all, even if their decision was made with the best intentions. 

 

This is also why one who is tagged as a pragmatic hero type with survival skills is tagged by writers for an early death. This type of character in a story is the one who insists that the group stay together and not split up. This is the one who would leave the weak ones behind in an very dangerous situation if they had nothing to offer the group so that the core of the group could survive. They are always overruled by the group and portrayed as some kind of monster, or always die early on because it wouldn't be much of a story if they survived and everyone followed their lead. Ellen Ripley in "Alien" is the lone exception. She survived while everyone else perished. 

 

It is compulsive paragon disorder, and heart ruling the head, and general incompetence, or simple metagaming by looking at the numbers under the War Assets column and calculating what is needed to unlock all the endings. I will assume the latter in many cases. Most people don't role play these games. They look up stuff in strategy guides to make sure they don't miss anything and they see the number of war assets one gets if one cures the genophage vs not curing it. If they didn't have the reputation to convince Mordin or Padok to fake the genophage, then they take option two: cure it.

[Barquiel]

Actually, I cured it the first time I played and Wreav was in charge. I was new to the series, so I didn't have any of the background and Wreav is the default leader in a non-import game. I was playing blind so I didn't know how things would go down if I sabotaged it. My thinking on going through with the cure was not reflexively paragon, though, Rather, my thinking was that if I sabotaged it surely the Krogan would quickly figure out that something wasn't right when none of their pregnancies were working out and then bail on the war effort. There is no gestation period given, but I figured if I sabotaged the cure they would figure it out rather quickly and the game would penalize me by reducing my war assets. Only later did I find out that the Krogan never figure out you sabotaged the cure if Wreav is in charge.

I think most players simply like Eve. She makes us see the krogan in a more sympathetic light (even in Wreav playthroughs), while the Dalatrass is written to be as annoying as possible.

And the salarians don't really support the war. I mean, even when you sabotage the cure you get...a pretty paltry amount compared to what the Turians and Asari bring to the table.

[DemiserofD]

I'm sorry, I think I've missed something. Aside from the dalatrass' comment about "urges", where is it stated that the Krogan are compelled to reproduce at a maximum rate?

 

Well, we don't know much about krogan reproduction, but if it's true that they reproduce in clutches of thousands, then if you want to have any children at all, then you'll have to basically go for the maximum.

Otherwise, the krogan tend to band together in clans, and the strongest clan is the one with the most manpower(kropower?), they'll be VERY encouraged to reproduce as quickly as possible to overwhelm the other clans. Of course, assuming one clan(urdnot, for example) could seize power and keep the other clans suppressed, then you might be able to keep the growth rate down...but all it takes is one hidden krogan colony on an undiscovered world and in 20 years you have 60 billion krogan rampaging their way through known space.

 

Basically, the Krogan are a ticking time bomb. Sure, they're not dangerous NOW, with Wrex and Eve in charge, but what if they lose control? What if one of their descendants is more bloodthirsty than they are? One order and a few years of breeding and they've got an army capable of causing untold destruction.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I'm sorry, I think I've missed something. Aside from the dalatrass' comment about "urges", where is it stated that the Krogan are compelled to reproduce at a maximum rate?

 

Females lay a clutch of 1000 eggs year each. Males fertilize the eggs. The genophage limits the number of eggs that hatch. With the genophage cured, up to 1000 eggs will hatch. How many will be viable? We don't know, but it's an insane number. The non-viable ones will probably be eaten by others. Wrex or Okeer or the Shaman mentioned that the genophage forced the Krogan to treat each hatchling or birth as special. Before that it was survival of the fittest in the harsh Tuchankan environment.

 

But once off that harsh environment, they thrived. They expanded through the galaxy taking world after world and killed people in droves. The Council let this go on for a while because they were in the Terminus, then the Krogan began demanding Council worlds and attacked the Asari world of Lusia, and that's when the Krogan Rebellions began. It ended on Menae when they were launching asteroids at Palaven. That's when the Turians layed the smack down with the genophage that the Salarians created. It was the only way to stop them. Without rapid replacements they couldn't sustain their attacks.

[Obadiah]

@DemiserofD
Of course the Krogan are a potential problem, but ANY race in the future is a potential problem. With AI mechs and cloning, the scenario you described is not restricted to a race with a high birth rate.

It seems to me that enforcing the Genophage is the wrong way to deal with that (probably why most players cured it).

Also, if Krogan lay eggs, then the simplist form of contraception is to just break the egg. So they have birth control.

[KaiserShep]

Ellen Ripley in "Alien" is the lone exception. She survived while everyone else perished. 

Well, technically, Alien 3 f*cked that all up by unceremoniously killing off Newt and Hicks, then ends with Ripley's suicide.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Well, technically, Alien 3 f*cked that all up by unceremoniously killing off Newt and Hicks, then ends with Ripley's suicide.

 

Technically, but I was taking it as a single movie. But her clone survives in Alien Resurrection.

[KaiserShep]

I try to pretend that Alien 3 and Resurrection don't exist. What terrible movies.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

I try to pretend that Alien 3 and Resurrection don't exist. What terrible movies.

 

Just like how most people ignore that EDI said that Krogan lay clutches in the thousands, Spider-Man 3 exists, or that there was even an Eragon movie.

[KaiserShep]

Eh Spider-Man collapsed as a franchise at 3 and never recovered. Sony should let it go.

[Obadiah]

EDI said "up to" 1000 in a year.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

EDI said "up to" 1000 in a year.

 

That doesn't mean 1 or 2.  That means between 500 - 1000 if I were to take a guess. It's a hell of a lot.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Eh Spider-Man collapsed as a franchise at 3 and never recovered. Sony should let it go.

 

Doesnt exist far as I am concerned, though I wish Marvel or Disney would go full force to take the franchise back. Ditto that on X-Men seeing as they would be able to do incredible **** with that property back in their control.

 

EDI said "up to" 1000 in a year.

 

The figure is bullshit regardless because of the implications not being supported by what we are shown.

[jtav]

It's supported as early as 2. Mordin tells you it was meant to keep the population stable. Unfortunately, they didn't account for the cultural effect of the genophage, which led to a long, slow decline.

[Display Name Owner]

Re the "cultural genocide" thing and the Genophage being cited as the reason the Krogan are as warlike as they have been... is that actually the case? Because Tuchanka was already a scorched rock when the Krogan were uplifted. They had already reduced it to that by engagin in nuclear war amongst themselves. I'd say "cultural genocide" refers to the fact that they were plucked out of their surroundings and brought into a world far more advanced than their own, removing the need for the advancement they might have undergone. Yes, that is the Salarian's doing, but it doesn't change the fact that the Krogan have always been warlike in a much more brutal way than the Turians. The rebellions happened because the Krogan needed to expand and brute force was their way of doing it.

 

Not to say the Genophage won't have had a major psychological effect. Just saying, I don't think the Krogan's vices can all be blamed on the Genophage.