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[Obadiah]

Re the "cultural genocide" thing and the Genophage being cited as the reason the Krogan are as warlike as they have been... is that actually the case?
...

Codex says their current state is due to a form of "fatalism" brought on by the Genophage. Of course, as you and Bakara rightly point out they were warlike and self-destructive before. I think they they were just self-destructive in a different culture. And of course Wrex in ME2 proved that, even with the Genophage, the Krogan can change their culture/behavior and start focusing on something other than endlessly fighting each other. Wreave sort of proves it too... he just does it through dominance.

Hmm... I suppose that means, cured or not, if they survive the Reaper War, they could eventually find a way to overcome it.

[Sir DeLoria]

Well, by definition the genophage is a form of genocide, as extensively limiting or preventing births in a specific group is defined as genocidal (UN, GPPCD: Article 2; sub-clause (d)).

Wether it's justified or not is a different issue and I'm personally quite split on it, but genocide is genocide.

[Reorte]

The whole thing about the genophage is - anyone got a better idea?

I cured it based on pragmatism. We need krogan help now, no matter what problems it may cause in the future. I'm not usually a fan of that sort of short termism but didn't see much alternative. I was rather disappointed that there wasn't an argument made for the genophage in ME3 though, Wrex really should've been confronted with it, and by a rational argument, not some sockpuppet like the dalatrass.

[Obadiah]

@Reorte
The argument made in Mass Effect, and on this forum, is that the Krogan with a cured Genophage will form a powerful new faction in the galaxy, and may try to dominate it, through force eventually, as they did during the rebellions. In fact, if they do gain dominance, they may destroy the galaxy in the same way they have done to Tuchanka and Garvug.

My evaluation of the situation is:

• It doesn't look like curing the Genophage is illegal, since the Krogan could openly finance a corporation to look for a cure in ME1. The terms on the end of the Krogan rebellion only appear to involve a demilitarized Krogan and their home systems being a DMZ. If not for the Reaper invasion, at some point, the Genophage would have been cured or overcome, and then the galaxy would have had to deal with a resurgent Krogan power.
• With the Genophage cured, the Krogan will try to re-populate their numbers in an attempt to build a better society for themselves. They'll repopulate faster than any other species after the Reaper War. The DMZ is there for now, but at some point it won't be, and the Krogan will have an advanced military again. They will try to gain power to become a new and powerful member of the Council.
• You don't (or at least "I" don't) deal with a potentially up and coming nation/faction by forcibly culling their numbers, whether by a bioweapon or outright pre-emptive strikes. I would negotiate with them as they rise, encourage or empower factions within them that are friendlier, build ties that give them a stake in the existing Council power structure, and if as a state they become belligerent or antagonistic then I would institute sanctions. I'm quite sure this was done before the first Krogan rebellions, and it resulted in war.
• The Krogan rebellions happened over a 1000 years ago, and the current Krogan are not the same undefeated ones as those that rebelled. They had the force of numbers in the rebellion and endured a crushing defeated, and then the punishment/retribution of the Genophage for a millenia. They all seem to realize that if they go too far, a Genophage response may be what they get again. Most of the Krogan, even Wreave, seem to understand this on some level.

So, I cure the Genophage. I think they deserve a chance to rebuild their society, and I include them as part of the fight against the Reapers as part of point #3. I need them to fight the Reapers, and I'd rather have them as allies, than as a faction that I'm tricking into wiping itself out.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

@Reorte
The argument made in Mass Effect, and on this forum, is that the Krogan with a cured Genophage will form a powerful new faction in the galaxy, and may try to dominate it, through force eventually, as they did during the rebellions. In fact, if they do gain dominance, they may destroy the galaxy in the same way they have done to Tuchanka and Garvug.

My evaluation of the situation is:

• It doesn't look like curing the Genophage is illegal, since the Krogan could openly finance a corporation to look for a cure in ME1. The terms on the end of the Krogan rebellion only appear to involve a demilitarized Krogan and their home systems being a DMZ. If not for the Reaper invasion, at some point, the Genophage would have been cured or overcome, and then the galaxy would have had to deal with a resurgent Krogan power.
• With the Genophage cured, the Krogan will try to re-populate their numbers in an attempt to build a better society for themselves. They'll repopulate faster than any other species after the Reaper War. The DMZ is there for now, but at some point it won't be, and the Krogan will have an advanced military again. They will try to gain power to become a new and powerful member of the Council.
• You don't (or at least "I" don't) deal with a potentially up and coming nation/faction by forcibly culling their numbers, whether by a bioweapon or outright pre-emptive strikes. I would negotiate with them as they rise, encourage or empower factions within them that are friendlier, build ties that give them a stake in the existing Council power structure, and if as a state they become belligerent or antagonistic then I would institute sanctions. I'm quite sure this was done before the first Krogan rebellions, and it resulted in war.
• The Krogan rebellions happened over a 1000 years ago, and the current Krogan are not the same undefeated ones as those that rebelled. They had the force of numbers in the rebellion and endured a crushing defeated, and then the punishment/retribution of the Genophage for a millenia. They all seem to realize that if they go too far, a Genophage response may be what they get again. Most of the Krogan, even Wreave, seem to understand this on some level.

So, I cure the Genophage. I think they deserve a chance to rebuild their society, and I include them as part of the fight against the Reapers as part of point #3. I need them to fight the Reapers, and I'd rather have them as allies, than as a faction that I'm tricking into wiping itself out.

 

1. It isn't illegal. Why didn't the Krogan do it? There are 3.2 billion Krogan on Tuchanka. They have no scientists themselves either. Their "scientists" b*tch about having to research stuff like agriculture (under Wrex) when they could be working on a "real ground pounder." Things that go "boom" are more important to them.

 

2. That is true.

 

3. The genophage cure Mordin and Padok perform bypass the sites attacked by the genophage itself. Something completely different would have to be employed if the Krogan got out of control.

 

4. I fake the genophage cure out of pragmatism. There are enough Krogan troops available to supply the war effort now. The cure isn't going to do anything but create more reaper destroyers. If we don't win it when we do, the genophage cure isn't going to matter. There are 3.2 billion Krogan. The reapers aren't going to be able to kill all the males and females on Tuchanka. That slide is very misleading at the end.

[Bob from Accounting]

I wonder if I should be surprised or not that literally no one I've ever seen on this forum besides myself has brought up the most important factor in curing the genophage.

[KaiserShep]

I wonder if I should be surprised or not that literally no one I've ever seen on this forum besides myself has brought up the most important factor in curing the genophage.

Is it heroism? I think it's heroism. I'm gonna have to settle with heroism.

[Reorte]

@Reorte
The argument made in Mass Effect, and on this forum, is that the Krogan with a cured Genophage will form a powerful new faction in the galaxy, and may try to dominate it, through force eventually, as they did during the rebellions. In fact, if they do gain dominance, they may destroy the galaxy in the same way they have done to Tuchanka and Garvug.

That is the issue but the game doesn't directly address it, particularly ME3. Wrex should certainly have been confronted with this.

• The Krogan rebellions happened over a 1000 years ago, and the current Krogan are not the same undefeated ones as those that rebelled. They had the force of numbers in the rebellion and endured a crushing defeated, and then the punishment/retribution of the Genophage for a millenia. They all seem to realize that if they go too far, a Genophage response may be what they get again. Most of the Krogan, even Wreave, seem to understand this on some level.

This is the hope but there's precious little to suggest that the krogan won't go back to the way they were. Wrex certainly does nothing to allay that fear; quite the opposite in fact.

At the risk of opening up a big can of worms can I say that this is exactly the sort of thing where leaving it open to speculation is exactly right? (doesn't mean it shouldn't be answered in a future story though)

[I Tsunayoshi I]

That is the issue but the game doesn't directly address it, particularly ME3. Wrex should certainly have been confronted with this.

This is the hope but there's precious little to suggest that the krogan won't go back to the way they were. Wrex certainly does nothing to allay that fear; quite the opposite in fact.

At the risk of opening up a big can of worms can I say that this is exactly the sort of thing where leaving it open to speculation is exactly right? (doesn't mean it shouldn't be answered in a future story though)

 

Uh. Did you miss where Wrex said he wouldnt allow the Krogan to go to war like they did in the Rebellions, or did you confuse him for Wreav?

[Obadiah]

That is the issue but the game doesn't directly address it, particularly ME3. Wrex should certainly have been confronted with this.

Well, I thought the game brought it up in a straight forward enough manner in the conversation between Wrex, Bakara, and Mordin on the drive to the Shroud. Shepard can't confront anyone about it, but its vocalized.
 

...
This is the hope but there's precious little to suggest that the krogan won't go back to the way they were. Wrex certainly does nothing to allay that fear; quite the opposite in fact.
...

On the face of it I thought Wrex and Bakara tried to allay the fear of a Krogan resurgence. People have to interpret that as best they can. Its what the game asks you to do.
 

At the risk of opening up a big can of worms can I say that this is exactly the sort of thing where leaving it open to speculation is exactly right? (doesn't mean it shouldn't be answered in a future story though)

It is open to speculation. The outcome of how we deal with others is always open the speculation. The choice says as much about Shepard as it does the outcome, especially in the original ending where we don't know what happens (we still don't to an extent).

[Deathsaurer]

That slide is very misleading at the end.

You mean the one with the Rachni setting up shop on Tuchanka? I can totally see how that is misleading... The Krogan got the same treatment as Rannoch if the Quarians are dead and you pick Destroy. I don't see the point in denying it.

[Obadiah]

[Accidental post]

[Reorte]

Wrex and Bakara are two krogan. Unless there's been a fundamental change in krogan mentality it's hard to accept that they'll be able to stop the krogan going to war, particularly if they're now popping out babies by the million and running out of room. A quick "Nah, I won't let it happen" from Wrex is hardly a reassuring answer. He doesn't seem to have an answer to the population explosion problem; in fact he's rather keen to get started on it.

[Obadiah]

Well, there is also Mordin and Padock Wiks. But, I'm not really here to convince anyone if they don't see a change in the Krogan themselves. I expect a population explosion either way. My rationale with respect to the how to handle the Krogan, belligerent or not, is in the post up top.

 

[Looks at next post]

Ah, this is one of those "the presentation sucked" arguments. I'm out.

[Reorte]

My point is that no-one in the game points out these things other than the Dalatrass, and she's written like she's only there to be shot down.
 

[Looks at next post]
Ah, this is one of those "the presentation sucked" arguments. I'm out.

Yes, there's a big presentation issue but no, it's not entirely that. I genuinely don't trust the krogan and can't find much incentive to do so (aside from the immediate pragmatism of needing them to fight the Reapers). I really need something concrete to go on, and the opinion of two people, no matter who they are, doesn't cut it in the face of all the evidence to the contrary. If you accept a "We can whack you back down again easily enough if you misbehave" position then the cure is fine.

[Bardox9]

The Genophage is harsh because the Krogan are harsh. The entire battle strategy of the Krogan is to throw bodies at the enemy and hope the enemy runs out of bullets before  the Krogan run out of bodies. Their extremely high birthrate (1,000 births per year per female) is the Krogan weapon. The Genophage takes away that weapon.

 

The Genophage is seen as a sterility plague because it results in 999 out of 1,000 pregnancies ending in either miscarriage or still birth. But it still allows for 1 birth per year per female Krogan. Considering their natural life span is 1,000+ years, each female is still capable of having hundreds of children. A horrid fate, but one that they earned through their mindless slaughter across the galaxy during the Rebellions. They were not, and are not, interest in diplomacy. They only stopped because of the Genophage. No other reason. The Krogan define themselves by their body count. They murder their way up the social ladder. The Genophage is harsh because the Krogan are harsh.

 

Personally, the only way I would be comfortable with curing the Genophage is if the Krogan were immediately confined to their home world. The council would drop food and supplies when needed. Hold annual summits with representatives from each clan and council race to monitor their cultural development and when/if Krogan society has evolved (or atleast become less trigger happy) talks about rejoining galactic society can begin. But until the question of "Who gets the last bottle of Ryncol?" doesn't end with gunshots, the Krogan stay on Tuchanka.

 

Wrex is awesome sauce. And Grunt... well... who doesn't love them some Grunt? But the Krogan as a whole are too dangerous to be left to roam the galaxy unchecked. I want to believe Wrex and Bakara can keep the Krogan from seeking revenge, but the odds are not in their favor. Best option is kill Wrex on Virmir, destroy the cure data, and put on a show for Wreav. Regardless of your choice, the cure is created and can be used at a later date. Now is not the time.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I wonder if I should be surprised or not that literally no one I've ever seen on this forum besides myself has brought up the most important factor in curing the genophage.

 

And what was that?

[Excella Gionne]

Genocide is genocide, and I agree with @Vergil's post.

 

Krogan favor heroism, and Wrex & Bakara are basically heroes along with Shepard, because they ended a 1,476 year old plague. The salarians during the Krogan Rebellions also agreed that it is a mistake to cause genocide on entire species, but they were forced to release it due to the circumstances while the turians were willing to be far more brutal by strapping a bomb to their planet that can wipe out most of their population. 

 

If you kill Wrex and Wreav controls the krogan clans, you're doing the exact opposite of what you plan to do later on, because the krogans will only seek war and not give a second thought. You encourage them to seek war and then keep them sterile secretly. All you are doing is feeding hate with hate, and not allowing them to actually change their perspective.

[Obadiah]

@Excella Gionne
Well, there's that to some extent. There are Krogan in the Terminus Systems outside of Council jurisdiction, and it only took one Rachni egg to bring the Rachni back.

Yet another reason is what the act says about Shepard and Humans. After such a massive, devastating, and gross betrayal, is any other faction really ever going to trust humanity as an ally again? I don't care how Machiavellian anyone thinks Shepard or the Humans can be, or how much they think they can bargain allegiances with other parties, or how cynical real politics actually is, Humanity just wiped out an "ally" - no one is going to be comfortable having any kind of ascension by Humanity. Now, there would have been competition among factions after the war anyway, but this would just take it to a-whole-nother level.

[Excella Gionne]

@Excella Gionne
Well, there's that to some extent. There are Krogan in the Terminus Systems outside of Council jurisdiction, and it only took one Rachni egg to bring the Rachni back.

Yet another reason is what the act says about Shepard and Humans. After such a massive devastating and gross betrayal, is any other faction really ever going to trust humanity as an ally again? I don't care how Machiavellian anyone thinks Shepard or the Humans can be, or how much they think they can bargain allegiances with other parties, or how cynical real politics actually is, Humanity just wiped out an "ally" - no one is going to comfortable having any kind of ascension by Humanity. Now, there would have been competition among factions after the war anyway, but this would just take it to a-whole-nother level.

Shepard and humans are an outside party within the genophage matter, and only someone who is not in either sides of the conflict can truly see the reality of the matter. Humans are the most diverse race and most interesting, because of our differences in appearance and self nature. We differ in many ways than the other species do, not saying that the other species aren't diverse, but I'm sure you know where I'm getting at.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Genocide is genocide, and I agree with @Vergil's post.

 

Krogan favor heroism, and Wrex & Bakara are basically heroes along with Shepard, because they ended a 1,476 year old plague. The salarians during the Krogan Rebellions also agreed that it is a mistake to cause genocide on entire species, but they were forced to release it due to the circumstances while the turians were willing to be far more brutal by strapping a bomb to their planet that can wipe out most of their population. 

 

If you kill Wrex and Wreav controls the krogan clans, you're doing the exact opposite of what you plan to do later on, because the krogans will only seek war and not give a second thought. You encourage them to seek war and then keep them sterile secretly. All you are doing is feeding hate with hate, and not allowing them to actually change their perspective.

 

Two things to note, one of which wasnt from you.

 

1: 1000 eggs per clutch per female is a bogus number. STOP USING IT PEOPLE.

 

2: Salarians were not willing to deploy the Genophage even after making it. Its release was a unilateral action taken by the Turians (as shown in Citadel). All dissenters on the decision to deploy were being treated harshly with arrest until the man in charge got what he wanted.

[KaiserShep]

2: Salarians were not willing to deploy the Genophage even after making it. Its release was a unilateral action taken by the Turians (as shown in Citadel). All dissenters on the decision to deploy were being treated harshly with arrest until the man in charge got what he wanted.

It was actually pretty great to see that in the archives. The Citadel DLC frustrates me that we only get a few snippets of information that we only have access to in the middle of a mission. I really wish that the archives was available for us to peruse on our own time.

[Excella Gionne]

It was actually pretty great to see that in the archives. The Citadel DLC frustrates me that we only get a few snippets of information that we only have access to in the middle of a mission. I really wish that the archives was available for us to peruse on our own time.

I was more disappointed in the fact that squadmates such as Wrex had no commentary on the genophage deployment...

[cap and gown]

 

1: 1000 eggs per clutch per female is a bogus number. STOP USING IT PEOPLE.

 

This is the absolutely most ludicrous thing said in this thread. No one is going to stop using it until you rewrite the game. Period.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It was actually pretty great to see that in the archives. The Citadel DLC frustrates me that we only get a few snippets of information that we only have access to in the middle of a mission. I really wish that the archives was available for us to peruse on our own time.

 

Yeah, then we would have known that the Council really did consider Sovereign a reaper and not Geth. It was just that since Shepard was with Cerberus that (s)he didn't have clearance anymore. All governments "officially" denied the reaper threat, but unofficially knew they were f***ed.

 

But then is The Citadel DLC canon? or simply fan service blended with canon? But Walters is making stuff canon now, so hmmm... 

 

And it is 1000 eggs per clutch. EDI doesn't make mistakes.