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Let's disuss Dragon Age Lore: Andraste


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#1
Momiji.mii

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Warning: Spoilers in this topic may include The Masked Empire, the comics, The World of Thedas, etc.

 

The world of Dragon Age is full of mysteries, and there's been hints that the truth of things are spread out between many different cultures in Thedas. We've got a lot of interesting tidbits from the games, as well as related products such as the novels, comics, The World of Thedas and such.

 

Lots of speculation has occured within the fandom from when Dragon Age: Origins first launched, and the idea of this topic is to discuss fan theories, old as well as new ones. We pick a topic each week, then run with it. No theories are too weird; I want to hear them all! 

 

The rule is simple: feel free to challenge a theory or idea, but always respect the people who subscribe to a certain belief.

 

If you can provide citations for your theory, those are always welcome.

 

The first topic is Andraste. Later topics may include (not limited to):

  • Kirkwall
  • The mysterious Thaig from the Deep Roads expedition
  • Red Lyrium
  • Fen'Harel
  • Arlathan
  • Flemeth
  • The Golden/Black City
  • Archdemons and the Blights
  • Connections between Elven and Human gods
  • Eluvians
  • Grey Wardens and politics/corruption
  • Elves and Dwarves
  • Qunari
  • Kal-Sharok

 

Tell me what you want to discuss next week! I'll kick off the discussion in the first post below (unless someone beats me to it). 



#2
Momiji.mii

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Let me start off the discussion about Andraste with some of my own theories (googling shows that I'm not the first one to consider the following).

 

Theory: Andraste may have been the first Old God Baby.

 

My reasoning: When you think about it, it must have happened before, otherwise how would Morrigan know about the possibility? We know that Old God souls are drawn to the taint, but what if the soul isn't destroyed when it meets the soul of the Grey Warden who delivers the killing blow, but instead is always purifed and reborn somewhere in Thedas?

 

If it happened before, the first Blight, when no prior information existed, would be the most reasonable occasion, since there was no way for anyone of knowing the possibility of this happening. The Fifth blight on the other hand was quelled quickly, before any other Wardens could arrive to take measures against people like Morrigan exploiting the opportunity.

 

So: what if Morrigan only uses the Dark Ritual to control where the Old God Soul is reborn, exploiting the fact that the soul would naturally be drawn to the taint in the baby's blood?

 

Flemeth certainly seems to have played a big role in this, as she went out of her way to save the Warden and Alistair, now the two only remaining Wardens as well as the newest recruits (and thus still able to sire a baby), sending her daughter with them to assure that the soul is captured.

 

The Architect is awakened by someone, and his experiments lead to him triggering the Fifth Blight. What if Flemeth, Fen'Harel or someone else woke him up and compelled him to do this, in order to let a new Old God Soul be reborn somewhere in the world.

 

We have yet to visit the head quarter of the Grey Wardens, but since Andraste was born later in the year of the quelling of the first blight (-203 Ancient), some people must have figured out the possible connections between Andraste and the killing of the Archdemon Dumat.

 

What directly speaks in favour of this theory:

  • Andraste was born the same year as the first blight ended.

  • Morrigan knows about the possibility of capturing an Old God soul; thus it must have happened before, presumably at least once, making the first blight a possible candidate.

  • It stands to reason that possessing the powerful soul and the powers of a god would help a slave to convince people to follow her.

  • Andraste's ashes has actual healing abilities - we know the ashes cured Arl Eamon. If Andraste possessed the soul of Dumat, that would make a lot more sense than if she was a mere human.

  • It would also explain why historically some have speculated that she was a mage (like in the book you gift to Wynne in Origins).

  • It would explain the Dragon Cult in Origins. Their presence was clearly there to help draw a connection between Andraste and Dragons. The followers of the cult may have been a bit weird and had fallen prey to deception from a regular Dragon, but if the Grey Wardens figured out the connection, others certainly would have as well, leading to them creating the cult.

What indirectly speaks in favour of this theory:

  • We learned in the Dragon Age Comics that Calenhad Theirin was such a powerful reaver because he used Dragon's blood for his reaving. If he could unite the Ferelden tribes, imagine what you could do with an Old God soul. Dragons are clearly one of the greatest sources of power in Thedas.

  • Grey Wardens use Archdemon blood in the Joining, in order to magnify their ability to sense darkspawn as well as the Archdemon itself. Once again, a Dragon linked to great powers. 

Direct consequences of this theory:

  • Even if the Dark Ritual wasn't performed, there will be an Old God Soul somewhere in the world, just not born by and controlled by Morrigan.

  • There may have been other Old Souls reborn, who had great influence, bad or good, on Thedas. It's also possible that the Grey Wardens prevented this by the same means as Morrigan controls where the soul is reborn after the Fifth Blight.

  • If the Grey Wardens are keeping this secret from the rest of Thedas, what else are they keeping secret? We already know that they guard the secrets of the Joining and the Calling. They probably keep the Warden's discovery of Wardens turning into ghouls secret as well.

  • The fall of the Tevinter Imperium was a direct consequence of them creating the blight, which was allegedly something they were tricked into doing through the whisperings of Dumat from the Fade. Did Dumat want this? Or did he have some other agenda, that ultimately failed? Are the Blights simply an instrument for changing the world state in Thedas? What other changes or events could be tracked to this?   

What speaks against this theory? You tell me! I'm interested in any counter-arguments. :)


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#3
Han Shot First

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Andraste as the first Old God Baby is an interesting theory, especially since there is not much lore on the First Blight. You don't know the name of the Warden that ended it for example, so it is possible that someone could have struck down the archdemon and lived.



#4
Gervaise

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I'm sure one of the codices said that the original Wardens were all killed in defeating Dumat.   Of course they could have  simply died of their wounds or been killed by darkspawn but in view of the lore that the Grey Wardens had passed down concerning the means of destroying the Archdemon, it seems highly unlikely that the dark ritual had been performed to end the 1st Blight, particularly as it took so long to do so.   I would imagine that they had probably struck down Dumat several times, only for him to be reborn and regenerated through another darkspawn, and it was only then that they hit upon the idea of drinking darkspawn blood.   The protection from the taint was a secondary consideration, the principle one was to ensure the soul jumped to the Grey Warden and was destroyed.

 

I am not convinced that an old god baby would be an innocent.   It is called an archdemon for a reason.   Whilst it may be that the old gods were merely very powerful ancient dragons, I think it more likely that a demon possessed the body of a dragon, thus allowing them to manifest in the mortal world and was the reason for their original worship.   It would also account for why we are told that it was Dumat and the other old gods who originally taught the Magisters blood magic.    Of course nothing is clear cut with the darkspawn.   We now know there was at least one original Magister who survived the 1st Blight, the first intelligent darkspawn, who pre-dated the Architect considerably.    It seems possibly that the Grey Wardens suspected he would be capable of the soul jump thing and that is why he was imprisoned rather than killed.   Strangely enough Corypheus seemed able to do this without killing the host, even though it seemed exactly the same process as with the archdemon.   So I suppose there is some possibility of a soul jump taking place but I doubt it.

 

I think it more likely that the Tevinter idea is correct.   Andraste was simply a very powerful mage and probably a dreamer.   She was contacted by a powerful Fade spirit that called itself the Maker.    It is possible that it even possessed her for a time.    We are told this is what happens with Rivanni wise women and they are highly respected in their culture and leaders of their people.    Even the Qunari thought it wise to allow this to continue rather than try a forcibly remove them.     So they are probably a throw back to a time when wise women were a common feature of the barbarian clans.      When non demon Fade spirits react with the mortal world, then then to be very powerful and when they manifest themselves, it can be awe inspiring.   If Andraste occasionally used to glow like Anders did when Justice rose to the surface, then I'm sure that would have been a pretty powerful incentive for people to listen to her.    Since she was advocating throwing over the Tevinter Imperium, that alone would have made her popular.   When Maferath's armies started being successful, it would have only added to the charisma of her appeal. 

 

She reminds me a bit of Deborah in the Bible.   She was a Judge (leader of the people) in old Israel before they had kings, a holy woman guided by God.   When they were threatened, it was she who mobilised a competent general to lead their armies and together they defeated their enemies.   This sounds very much like what Andraste is said to have done.   You don't have to have the soul of an old god to be a charismatic leader.


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#5
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I've said this 100 times. Andraste is the Dragon of Silence. Another piece of info that might contribute to this theory is that The Sentinel set allegedly belonged to the proto-Warden that struck the killing blow. Why would this armor set find itself in Ferelden and not Tevinter? I speculated that this Original Warden was Andraste's father and journeyed South to Ferelden with Brona (who was a Warden? Bloodmage?) as far away from the Blighted lands as possible so as to not taint the child.

 

Years later Archon Hessarian conveniently converted to the Andrastian religion as Andraste was being burnt at the stake. He used his Sword to mercifully end her suffering when at her death he realized that she was the Dragon of Silence....

 

There's more stuff that I can't remember right now.


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#6
The Night Haunter

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I don't really like these Andraste is... theories, I think she should just be a dead prophet.

 

BUT... the whole Flemeth is Andraste combined with Andraste is the first OGB makes a bunch of sense. Flemeth is able to survive the loss of a body (just like an archdemon/old god), and she is certainly very old. She takes the form of a dragon (Old God is a dragon so that obviously fits), she is apparently very interested in reviving dragons (from the comics), and that fits for an Old God.

 

I doubt it actually is the truth, but it is an interesting theory that happens to fit some pieces together nicely.


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#7
Char

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I don't really like these Andraste is... theories, I think she should just be a dead prophet.
 
BUT... the whole Flemeth is Andraste combined with Andraste is the first OGB makes a bunch of sense. Flemeth is able to survive the loss of a body (just like an archdemon/old god), and she is certainly very old. She takes the form of a dragon (Old God is a dragon so that obviously fits), she is apparently very interested in reviving dragons (from the comics), and that fits for an Old God.
 
I doubt it actually is the truth, but it is an interesting theory that happens to fit some pieces together nicely.

If this is the case, I'd want to know whose ashes they were in the Urn. Other than that, possible, sure :)

#8
The Night Haunter

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If this is the case, I'd want to know whose ashes they were in the Urn. Other than that, possible, sure :)

Well consider that we don't (and probably will never) know that the Maker even actually exists. What if he doesn't exist, then why would Andraste's ashes be special? For all we know the ashes in the urn are the ashes of Maferath for betraying Flemeth lol. It could be anything in there. Maybe a condensed High Dragon corpse?



#9
Char

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Well consider that we don't (and probably will never) know that the Maker even actually exists. What if he doesn't exist, then why would Andraste's ashes be special? For all we know the ashes in the urn are the ashes of Maferath for betraying Flemeth lol. It could be anything in there. Maybe a condensed High Dragon corpse?


Well something cured the arl. Of course, without further testing it's impossible to say whether any ashes would have cured the arl, whether there was a particular compound in the ashes that cured the arl, or whether the placebo effect is incredibly effective at dispelling poisons in Thedas :lol:

#10
The Night Haunter

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Well something cured the arl. Of course, without further testing it's impossible to say whether any ashes would have cured the arl, whether there was a particular compound in the ashes that cured the arl, or whether the placebo effect is incredibly effective at dispelling poisons in Thedas :lol:

Or it was an Ash Demon that possessed Arl Eamon. Maybe we will never know....



#11
Hanako Ikezawa

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I don't really like these Andraste is... theories, I think she should just be a dead prophet.

I agree. Why can't Andraste just be Andraste? 


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#12
Eveangaline

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Well something cured the arl. Of course, without further testing it's impossible to say whether any ashes would have cured the arl, whether there was a particular compound in the ashes that cured the arl, or whether the placebo effect is incredibly effective at dispelling poisons in Thedas :lol:

If you take oghren with you he tells you how that mountain contains MASSIVE amounts of lyrium. Also we have no idea what magical protections or effects may have been put on them when they were placed there.


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#13
Han Shot First

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I'm sure one of the codices said that the original Wardens were all killed in defeating Dumat.   Of course they could have  simply died of their wounds or been killed by darkspawn but in view of the lore that the Grey Wardens had passed down concerning the means of destroying the Archdemon, it seems highly unlikely that the dark ritual had been performed to end the 1st Blight, particularly as it took so long to do so.   I would imagine that they had probably struck down Dumat several times, only for him to be reborn and regenerated through another darkspawn, and it was only then that they hit upon the idea of drinking darkspawn blood.   The protection from the taint was a secondary consideration, the principle one was to ensure the soul jumped to the Grey Warden and was destroyed.

 

 

Perhaps I'm remembering it wrong, but wasn't the story about several warriors killing Dumat a retelling of the first time he was cut down before it was known that the archdemons could respawn? I believe the story of his final death hasn't been told (yet) in the lore.

 

The darkspawn blood idea I believe came about by accident. A barbarian warrior that came from a tribe who had a tradition of imbibing the blood of fallen enemies did so with darkspawn blood that he had mixed with a lyrium potion. Quite unintentionally he became the first Grey Warden, realized it enabled him to sense darkspawn, and passed the practice on to other people combating the Blight.


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#14
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Another thing that's interesting is that Genetivi tells the PC that practices/rites of Andraste's Cult predate the Orlesian Chantry. So ironically, the Reaver's version of the Chant and Andrastian religion is closer to the practices of Andraste's day. 

 

Just adding some fuel to the fire (pun intended).


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#15
Momiji.mii

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I'm glad to see so many posts here! I love discussing DA lore, so thanks for participating! 

 

Edit: I don't know why the quoted names don't show up! They're there when I edit the post, but not visible in the thread. :(

 

Edit 2: Aaaand they're back. This is confusing. :/

 

Andraste as the first Old God Baby is an interesting theory, especially since there is not much lore on the First Blight. You don't know the name of the Warden that ended it for example, so it is possible that someone could have struck down the archdemon and lived.

Yes, since we've so far actually learnt very little about the inner circle of the Grey Wardens, and most important: we've learnt that they don't know it all, I'm sure that there's a lot of potentially volatile secrets that they're keeping from outsiders. 

 

I think it more likely that the Tevinter idea is correct.   Andraste was simply a very powerful mage and probably a dreamer.   She was contacted by a powerful Fade spirit that called itself the Maker.    It is possible that it even possessed her for a time.    We are told this is what happens with Rivanni wise women and they are highly respected in their culture and leaders of their people.    Even the Qunari thought it wise to allow this to continue rather than try a forcibly remove them.     So they are probably a throw back to a time when wise women were a common feature of the barbarian clans.      When non demon Fade spirits react with the mortal world, then then to be very powerful and when they manifest themselves, it can be awe inspiring.   If Andraste occasionally used to glow like Anders did when Justice rose to the surface, then I'm sure that would have been a pretty powerful incentive for people to listen to her.    Since she was advocating throwing over the Tevinter Imperium, that alone would have made her popular.   When Maferath's armies started being successful, it would have only added to the charisma of her appeal. 

This theory is also interesting, and one I must have overlooked. I'm quite convinced that the Maker is not a God in the way most people would think of one, but an immortal being of some kind. If Andraste had come across one in the Fade, unknowingly, then that would also make sense. Good point about the parallell to Anders and Rivaini seers possessed by spirits! I do hope that we get to visit Rivain in an upcoming game to allow us to find out more about the practice. 

 

I've said this 100 times. Andraste is the Dragon of Silence. Another piece of info that might contribute to this theory is that The Sentinel set allegedly belonged to the proto-Warden that struck the killing blow. Why would this armor set find itself in Ferelden and not Tevinter? I speculated that this Original Warden was Andraste's father and journeyed South to Ferelden with Brona (who was a Warden? Bloodmage?) as far away from the Blighted lands as possible so as to not taint the child.

 

Years later Archon Hessarian conveniently converted to the Andrastian religion as Andraste was being burnt at the stake. He used his Sword to mercifully end her suffering when at her death he realized that she was the Dragon of Silence....

Two excellent points! I had forgotten about the Sentinel armour set. One of my theories above is that the soul would have been reborn no matter what, but since the war had gone on for 190 years, I'm sure there was at least some Wardens traveling with their families, as well as camp followers and Wardens hooking up with other Wardens. So the possibility that Brona (if she really was Andraste's mother) travelled with the army is at least not non-existent. Though if you follow the messiah parallell in the myth of Andraste, immaculate conception is also a possible reason I guess. 

 

I agree. Why can't Andraste just be Andraste? 

She absolutely can! But it's fun to speculate and try to connect the little pieces of information that Bioware seems to have spread out through the games and spin-off products. :)

 

If you take oghren with you he tells you how that mountain contains MASSIVE amounts of lyrium. Also we have no idea what magical protections or effects may have been put on them when they were placed there.

I've probably never brought Oghren there, and thus missed this. Perhaps it was used to preserve her ashes? Lyrium wouldn't act as a cure by itself I think, though possibly it may have been used as a catalyst. 

 

Perhaps I'm remembering it wrong, but wasn't the story about several warriors killing Dumat a retelling of the first time he was cut down before it was known that the archdemons could respawn? I believe the story of his final death hasn't been told (yet) in the lore.

 

The darkspawn blood idea I believe came about by accident. A barbarian warrior that came from a tribe who had a tradition of imbibing the blood of fallen enemies did so with darkspawn blood that he had mixed with a lyrium potion. Quite unintentionally he became the first Grey Warden, realized it enabled him to sense darkspawn, and passed the practice on to other people combating the Blight.

I'm quite convinced that we've not been told the whole truth. A lot of facts told and texts that appear in DAO seems to be purposefully misleading. We've already seen some theories debunked in DAII and it's DLC (like how the Magisters weren't responsible for bringing the taint to the Golden City), so I'm sure there are other, even greater revelations yet to come. 

 

Your theory about how the Grey Wardens found out about the special properties of the tainted Darkspawn blood actually sounds quite plausible. Perhaps someone who was a reaver? Or did Theirin invent reaving? 

 

Another thing that's interesting is that Genetivi tells the PC that practices/rites of Andraste's Cult predate the Orlesian Chantry. So ironically, the Reaver's version of the Chant and Andrastian religion is closer to the practices of Andraste's day. 

Yes, the cult does seem more like a primitive religious practice, while The Chantry lore appears like a white-washed version of what actually happened. 

 

Let's keep speculating! And if we run out of ideas, I'll chose a new topic for us. 


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#16
Dusksworn

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If you take oghren with you he tells you how that mountain contains MASSIVE amounts of lyrium. Also we have no idea what magical protections or effects may have been put on them when they were placed there.

 

Well, obviously the Lyrium developed around there because that's where the ashes were deposited.

 

Being half-serious here.

 

One thing I've noticed in Dragon Age is just how important songs seem to be in its lore.

 

I seem to remember it being stated soomewhere that the Darkspawn are driven on by some sort of song. Then there's the fact that Lyrium also sings, and the idea that Andraste attracted the Maker's attention with her own singing.

 

These songs are powerful and influential in some way, and I sometimes wonder if there's a connection or if Lyrium would also react to external songs...

 

But really, I'm more than willing to believe that Andraste was able to attract some sort of power through song.



#17
Gervaise

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The only thing that lends credence to some idea of Andraste being an old god reborn is that the people of Haven start thinking that a dragon could be Andraste reborn, which is odd unless they knew she occasionally manifested as a dragon.    However, I still think that she was linked in some way with a powerful spirit, may be even a Justice spirit since her chant is basically a blue print for a more just and fair society where people who have particularly gifts, like mages, use them for the benefit of others rather than to amass power.   It always seemed rather sad and ironic that Andraste condemned the abuse of power and yet that is exactly what the nobles of Orlais and elsewhere do with the peasantry and particularly the elves, and the Templars and the Chantry do with respect to mages.    It is simply Tevinter in reverse.

 

The indwelling of a spirit could also account for Maferath's actions.   Remember how possessive Justice becomes over Anders and if you are a rival, how he basically tells you to get lost if you are trying to persuade Anders to stop what he is planning.     Now there is a theory given in the codex that it wasn't so much jealousy but that Maferath realised that he couldn't keep going indefinitely with his army and certainly not long enough to totally defeat the Magisters, so he wanted to stop and negotiate a truce while he was still in a strong enough bargaining position to do so.   If he suggested this to Andraste and her spirit objected, this could have led Maferath to realise the only way he was going to be able to stop it would be with the aid of strong magic, in other words the Magisters.   It would also account for why they insisted on burning her.    The Magisters knew that spirits can inhabit and continue to exist in a dead body, and Flemeth has shown that you only need a small bit to reassemble yourself, so the only way to ensure that the spirit did not use her body to continue its work was to utterly destroy it.


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#18
Gervaise

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One more point, it would also account for why the Maker was said to be willing to return to help mankind if they world followed the Chant and then apparently abandoned them after the death of Andraste.   The spirit she was communing with simply retreated back into the Fade.   


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#19
Dusksworn

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One more point, it would also account for why the Maker was said to be willing to return to help mankind if they world followed the Chant and then apparently abandoned them after the death of Andraste.   The spirit she was communing with simply retreated back into the Fade.   

Ah, you're not realizing the truth.

 

It's all about the song. Yes. I am always right.

 

The Maker is just an anthropomorphized depiction of a force or power that responds to certain resonations or something. Yes. This makes sense. Maybe.

 

Lyrium draws from this powersource in various ways with its own song, and the reason why the Lyrium surrounding Andraste's ashes is so concentrated and pure.

 

Lyrium "obviously" can carry and echo certain resonations they've been exposed to, though they grow distorted over time. And of course, in my bullshit theory, it's from these resonations that they derive their power. Equally obviously, Andraste's singing must have refreshed this Lyriums' song and revitalized its growth and etc.

 

"The Maker" will return when everyone sings the proper chant, because if it's done right it will resonate with and purify the Lyriums, as well as strengthen it and encourage its growth and development in a positive direction as suggested by the healing effects of Andraste's ashes.

 

Obviously Red Lyrium carries a strong resonance of its own that has its own powerful set of effects on its properties and growth patterns. I assume that this variant of the song may also be able to be transmitted to other Lyrium patches, and bad things would probably happen if its song took over the majority of Lyrium.

 

Maybe "The Maker" would still "return" in some sense, but it would be in a manifestation as twisted and warped as Red Lyrium itself, rather than in the form of the seemingly benign powers that were infuesed in Andraste's ashes.

 

Does any of this make sense?



#20
ladyoflate

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Andraste is almost definitely a slightly more ruthless Bethany-type mage to me, and her being an OGB would be interesting, but is is even possible? Part of what makes the Joining the Joining is Archdemon blood, which they probably wouldn't have until after the first Blight, yes? And the ritual is said to only work with Grey Wardens, who are different from your standard early-stages-of-the-taint people? Unless of course it could work with a pre-ghoul.

 

ETA: it'd be nice to know if the blood from the Archdemon's corpse if it's not permanently killed has the same properties as permadead blood. It does make more sense, now that I think about it, if the blood is the same, because then they have a renewable resource for making new Wardens during those centuries-long Blights. So I suppose it's possible.


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#21
Senya

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I agree. Why can't Andraste just be Andraste? 

Plot twist: Andraste and the Maker are what the Chant says they are. No one will be expecting it.  B)



#22
Eveangaline

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ETA: it'd be nice to know if the blood from the Archdemon's corpse if it's not permanently killed has the same properties as permadead blood. It does make more sense, now that I think about it, if the blood is the same, because then they have a renewable resource for making new Wardens during those centuries-long Blights. So I suppose it's possible.

 

Well they had to have a way to make the first wardens that ended a blight and permadeaded an archdemon, so I'd assume that the blood of a non perma-dead one would have to work.



#23
ladyoflate

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Plot twist: Andraste and the Maker are what the Chant says they are. No one will be expecting it.  B)

 

I can fully accept Andraste being what the Chant says she is, but what a religious text says about a prophet and religious institution says about that same prophet can often be quite different. And she is Thedas-Jesus.


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#24
ladyoflate

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Well they had to have a way to make the first wardens that ended a blight and permadeaded an archdemon, so I'd assume that the blood of a non perma-dead one would have to work.

 

Touche and also duh, me.



#25
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During the Gauntlet the spirit of Cathaire said that the Tevinter fell due to famine. He speaks of the sun burning the crops. But I'm more inclined to believe that a dragon burned them down. Or a woman that can shape shift into a dragon that happens to be Old God of Silence. 


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