65 réponses à ce sujet

[yakaman91]

Ah, you're not realizing the truth.

 

It's all about the song. Yes. I am always right.

 

The Maker is just an anthropomorphized depiction of a force or power that responds to certain resonations or something. Yes. This makes sense. Maybe.

 

Lyrium draws from this powersource in various ways with its own song, and the reason why the Lyrium surrounding Andraste's ashes is so concentrated and pure.

 

Lyrium "obviously" can carry and echo certain resonations they've been exposed to, though they grow distorted over time. And of course, in my bullshit theory, it's from these resonations that they derive their power. Equally obviously, Andraste's singing must have refreshed this Lyriums' song and revitalized its growth and etc.

 

"The Maker" will return when everyone sings the proper chant, because if it's done right it will resonate with and purify the Lyriums, as well as strengthen it and encourage its growth and development in a positive direction as suggested by the healing effects of Andraste's ashes.

 

Obviously Red Lyrium carries a strong resonance of its own that has its own powerful set of effects on its properties and growth patterns. I assume that this variant of the song may also be able to be transmitted to other Lyrium patches, and bad things would probably happen if its song took over the majority of Lyrium.

 

Maybe "The Maker" would still "return" in some sense, but it would be in a manifestation as twisted and warped as Red Lyrium itself, rather than in the form of the seemingly benign powers that were infuesed in Andraste's ashes.

 

Does any of this make sense?

 

This sounds like String Theory, where (I'm sure I'm severely bastardizing this) fundamental particles are simply the result of "strings" (whatever they may be) vibrating at different frequencies, or whatever.  But I like it...the "singing" is so prevalent in the DA universe that it has to be a manifestation of something universal.

• Lyrium sings
• Red Lyrium sings
• The Taint sings
• Andraste sang and the Maker...came?  Became?

When you consider the last point (as you noted) the whole Maker will return with the proper chant thing is pretty intriguing to think about.  Are there other examples of resonance?  Frequency? Singing?  Chanting?

 

------

 

On another note, I've always been aware that Corypheous jumped upon his death, but never realized that's likely exactly what Archdemons do.  Except that his soul wasn't obliterated.  Why?  I thought the Grey Warden deathblow worked because two souls couldn't inhabit a single body, but Cory presumably didn't have a problem with it.

 

So let me get this straight...it's OK for two human souls to coexist (Cory and GW host), and it's OK for a soul and a demon/spirit to coexist (Anders, Wynne), but a Grey Warden and an Archdemon annihilate each other.  How is an Archdemon different?  Obviously, I didn't think it was a human soul, but I did think it would be a spirit of some kind.  But apparently, it is something...other.

 

This would suggest another type of entity, of which I'd propose the Maker, the Archdemons, Flemeth, and Fen'Harel are of.  Perhaps these entities can only be created/summoned/manifested/instantiated by creating the proper resonance.  Perhaps the elves manifested the old gods; the Tevinters brought the Archdemons into existence; and Andraste made the Maker.

 

Perhaps it takes a powerful dreamer?  Perhaps Andraste was an uber-dreamer along the lines of the early elves and the most powerful Tevinters.  

[MrMrPendragon]

I don't have my own theory because the problem is not having enough information to form one, but rather distinguishing which info we have is correct.

80% of the info we have is basically one of the following: "The Chantry teaches us" or "Some say..." or if it's about the elves it says "Legends says/Long ago when the People had the gift..."

The remaining 20%? Too vague to form anything.

Well I don't know which info am I supposed to use and which info I throw out. Why can't we ever get a straight answer? You know there should be a character that's the complete opposite of Flemeth, instead of talking in riddles, he/she would be one that talks so striaghtforward that you will have absolutely no questions left when he/she talks about something.

Anyway, I do firmly believe that there are answers in the Primeval Thaig (it had to be more than just a place to contain a plot item - red lyrium - why the hell is it red anyway?) because I believe that the place has something to do with a religion long ago, a religion connected to the dragons, or at least existed druing the reign of the Dragons. It contains answers about the true nature of the Old Gods, maybe not directly about Andraste, but since the Old Gods are a core part of Andraste's Chantry, it might give us some clues.


HOWEVER, I'm guessing that the writers haven't even made Andraste's real story, or The Old Gods' story, or any kind of answers yet. And that all of the religion/magic side of the lore is incomplete.

[Momiji.mii]

Can I just say how happy I am that so many of you want to participate in the discussion? I've learnt a lot of interesting facts and theories that I hadn't thought of or payed attention to before.

 

The only thing that lends credence to some idea of Andraste being an old god reborn is that the people of Haven start thinking that a dragon could be Andraste reborn, which is odd unless they knew she occasionally manifested as a dragon.    However, I still think that she was linked in some way with a powerful spirit, may be even a Justice spirit since her chant is basically a blue print for a more just and fair society where people who have particularly gifts, like mages, use them for the benefit of others rather than to amass power.   It always seemed rather sad and ironic that Andraste condemned the abuse of power and yet that is exactly what the nobles of Orlais and elsewhere do with the peasantry and particularly the elves, and the Templars and the Chantry do with respect to mages.    It is simply Tevinter in reverse.

 

The indwelling of a spirit could also account for Maferath's actions.   Remember how possessive Justice becomes over Anders and if you are a rival, how he basically tells you to get lost if you are trying to persuade Anders to stop what he is planning.     Now there is a theory given in the codex that it wasn't so much jealousy but that Maferath realised that he couldn't keep going indefinitely with his army and certainly not long enough to totally defeat the Magisters, so he wanted to stop and negotiate a truce while he was still in a strong enough bargaining position to do so.   If he suggested this to Andraste and her spirit objected, this could have led Maferath to realise the only way he was going to be able to stop it would be with the aid of strong magic, in other words the Magisters.   It would also account for why they insisted on burning her.    The Magisters knew that spirits can inhabit and continue to exist in a dead body, and Flemeth has shown that you only need a small bit to reassemble yourself, so the only way to ensure that the spirit did not use her body to continue its work was to utterly destroy it.

If it's something I gained from The Masked Empire, it's that Orlais is really not that much better than Tevinter when it comes to abusing power and oppressing others, especially the Elves. Both empires have repeatedly tried to annex Nevarra and the Free Marches, as well as Ferelden during the different ages of Thedas. As you point out, unlike Andraste, most of those with great powers doesn't seem to want to use them for anything other than gaining influence and power for themselves. Maybe that's what really made her unique and allowed her to lead so many and together change the world. 

 

It's interesting to consider that IF Andraste was possessed by a spirit, that it may have talked to Maferath. The Ash Wraiths in the Gauntlet are probably not truthful with their recitation of Maferath's intent and betrayal. It makes sense, if the theory of him trying to be realistic is true, that as a skilled warlord he'd realize that they couldn't keep it up forever. It doesn't make it any less sad though. 

 

One more point, it would also account for why the Maker was said to be willing to return to help mankind if they world followed the Chant and then apparently abandoned them after the death of Andraste.   The spirit she was communing with simply retreated back into the Fade.   

An excellent point to your theory! Thanks for sharing. I like my OGB-Andraste theory personally, but I wouldn't be surprised nor disappointed if your theory is closer to the actual truth, if we'll ever find that out in the game. 

 

Andraste is almost definitely a slightly more ruthless Bethany-type mage to me, and her being an OGB would be interesting, but is is even possible? Part of what makes the Joining the Joining is Archdemon blood, which they probably wouldn't have until after the first Blight, yes? And the ritual is said to only work with Grey Wardens, who are different from your standard early-stages-of-the-taint people? Unless of course it could work with a pre-ghoul.

 

ETA: it'd be nice to know if the blood from the Archdemon's corpse if it's not permanently killed has the same properties as permadead blood. It does make more sense, now that I think about it, if the blood is the same, because then they have a renewable resource for making new Wardens during those centuries-long Blights. So I suppose it's possible.

Good catch! Since the First Blight is characterized not only by it's length, but also mainly by the fact that the Archdemon was falsely assumed to have been defeated once, this was probably the case. Dragons as a source of power in Thedas is a repeating theme as I've pointed out. So the Grey Wardens needed to kill the Archdemon at least once in order to fully defeat it, whether they knew it or not. They probably stood over the defeated carcass and tried to figure out if they could harness some of it's power, had a few Wardens try it out and then eventually realized that the Archdemon was still alive somewhere from the dreams and whispering. 

 

Since the Qunari knew about Calahad Theirin using dragon's blood for reaving, perhaps Sten and his men were sent out by the Arishok to find out more about how the Wardens could actually kill the Archdemon, which is shaped like a dragon. I'm planning on having a discussion about Qunari later, but their horned, dragonlike appearance certainly is curious. 

 

I can fully accept Andraste being what the Chant says she is, but what a religious text says about a prophet and religious institution says about that same prophet can often be quite different. And she is Thedas-Jesus.

Well said! I'm sure that Bioware have taken great care to set their world up in a way that the absolute truth of things is rarely known by any one person, nation, people or institution. Otherwise, what would we find out as the DA-series went on? 

 

During the Gauntlet the spirit of Cathaire said that the Tevinter fell due to famine. He speaks of the sun burning the crops. But I'm more inclined to believe that a dragon burned them down. Or a woman that can shape shift into a dragon that happens to be Old God of Silence. 

Interesting theory! I only wonder, if that was the case, how the Chantry has been able to surpress people from spreading this knowledge, like The Dragon Cult of Andraste, eyewitnesses and historians. Would this fact have been known by those who followed Andraste in her army, or would she have transformed in secret? 

 

(...) the "singing" is so prevalent in the DA universe that it has to be a manifestation of something universal.

• Lyrium sings
• Red Lyrium sings
• The Taint sings
• Andraste sang and the Maker...came?  Became?

When you consider the last point (as you noted) the whole Maker will return with the proper chant thing is pretty intriguing to think about.  Are there other examples of resonance?  Frequency? Singing?  Chanting?

 

------

 

On another note, I've always been aware that Corypheous jumped upon his death, but never realized that's likely exactly what Archdemons do.  Except that his soul wasn't obliterated.  Why?  I thought the Grey Warden deathblow worked because two souls couldn't inhabit a single body, but Cory presumably didn't have a problem with it.

 

So let me get this straight...it's OK for two human souls to coexist (Cory and GW host), and it's OK for a soul and a demon/spirit to coexist (Anders, Wynne), but a Grey Warden and an Archdemon annihilate each other.  How is an Archdemon different?  Obviously, I didn't think it was a human soul, but I did think it would be a spirit of some kind.  But apparently, it is something...other.

 

This would suggest another type of entity, of which I'd propose the Maker, the Archdemons, Flemeth, and Fen'Harel are of.  Perhaps these entities can only be created/summoned/manifested/instantiated by creating the proper resonance.  Perhaps the elves manifested the old gods; the Tevinters brought the Archdemons into existence; and Andraste made the Maker.

 

Perhaps it takes a powerful dreamer?  Perhaps Andraste was an uber-dreamer along the lines of the early elves and the most powerful Tevinters.  

Interesting to read several posts pointing out the importance of songs in Thedas. I agree that the focus on song in what appears to be separate matters might be a hint of a possible connection. We'll get more into that when we discuss Red Lyrium I guess. 

 

One of the reasons that I think the Grey Wardens are hiding something about the destruction of the Archdemon and the Grey Wardens that strike the killing blows is what you point out: What makes the Archdemon's soul behave differently, when others can co-exist with spirits and souls? We know that demons take over their subjects, but the wizards' souls still exist in the body, albeit suppressed and controlled by the demon. Wynne and Anders co-existed, the former quite peacefully, Anders more disharmoniously with both him and Justice affecting the other. Corypheus appears to have hitched a ride with a Warden without the possessed subject even noticing the fact, and he certainly didn't seem to need permission the way that Justice (and supposedly Wynne's spirit) needed Anders' permission. And if I'm not completely misremembering, demons need permission to possess living, intelligent beings (as opposed to Sylvans, etc). And yet, Corypheus just...slips into Larius or Janeka, though they both may of course have unwittingly given their permission, seeing as they'd been under his influence for quite some time when we come across either of them. 

 

Perhaps the Archdemon can only possess mindless, tainted creature, like the other darkspawn, and it's soul is destroyed (or possibly purified) because the Grey Warden is an intelligent being? Would that make sense? 

[ladyoflate]

I always got the sense that Corypheus wasn't possessing either of them either of them in the normal Dragon Age sense of it, with two souls side by side. Larius was the one who I sided with because saving the other two GWs, but the complete demeanor changed indicated to me that it was Corypheus piloting the body and trying to hide it from Hawke. Like if Larius' soul had been shunted out/destroyed like with the Archdemon/darkspawn. What makes Corypheus different may be that he was once a non-Fade entity as well, and it may only be Fade creatures that can coexist with a living soul w/o destroying it.

 

As far as the Archdemon goes, the soul is drawn to the nearest/strongest source of taint which in the case of permadeath is the Grey Warden doing the killing. I assume it works even if the final blow is from an arrow, as the taking of a life in DA is shown to be an inherently magical act that would likely make it the path of least resistance for the soul of the Archdemon no matter the proximity.

 

As for the destruction of both the Archdemon soul and the GW soul, we have two options: I'm right about the Fade creature thing and this indicates that the Archdemons are in fact not entities of the fade (which the fact they have physical bodies of their own would seem to indicate), or it doesn't matter if I'm right or not because the taint/Joining containing Archdemon blood creates some sort of internal spiritual explosion type thing because it's just to much soul crap of the same kind all at once.

 

I also assume that when the Archdemon goes into another darkspawn and regens, the soul of the darkspawn (since I think, with the broodmother thing and the Architect thing, that darkspawn being entirely soulless is unlikely/not a lot of sense-making) willingly gives up in favor of it's boss.

 

That's a lot of assumptions, I'd be a terrible scientist.

 

Going back to the DR, I'm guessing that there's a non-sex part to the ritual that creates the same sort of path-of-least-resistance to trap the OG soul. It's been stated that a GW child is born free of the taint (even if the mother is the GW, although I am not referring to Fiona, just theoretical ones) which probably has to do with the whole 'new life coming into the world' thing. If the end of a life is inherently magical, so too must be the start.

 

Also, now I want to know more about the parents of Andraste, and it strikes me as odd that we don't know anything. We know plenty about Joseph, and he really was just a carpenter (as well as plenty of other religious icon genealogy), so even if Andraste isn't the OG OGB, we should still know something about her parents. People get nosy with their saviors.

[Gervaise]

I think Andraste's parentage is fairly easy to deduce.   Her mother, Brona, was a slave.   The Magister to whom she belonged seduced her.   It may have been genuine affection or simply rape.   Hence no one remembering who her father was.   In fact Brona may never even have told her, so she wasn't aware herself.   The Tevinter Empire stretched across the length of Thedas then.   The Imperial Highway certainly went as far as Ostegar.   So I imagine the seat of power for the part of the Empire that became Ferelden would have been Denerium, where Andraste was allegedly born.   She was definitely meant to have been originally a slave but at some point possibly fled into the wilder areas where she encountered Maferath's barbarian tribe.   If her father was a Magister, or at the very least some minor official who was still a mage, that would account for where she acquired her powers (if she was a mage herself).   Her determination to free the slaves and create a more fair and equal society clearly would have its origins in her own experience of being a slave and how those in power abuse it.

[MrMrPendragon]

My take in all this is that Andraste WAS NOT possessed, but rather Andraste is the one who possessed a mortal. Yes, I'm pitching an outlandish theory here.

I believe that there are not one, but two Andraste, the entity from the Fade and the mortal who summoned/called her. The mortal one is the one everyone saw, the charismatic leader and friend to the elves. But the spirit, was the one winning the wars against the most powerful empire in all of Thedas.

I believe that it was mortal Andraste and her husband Maferath who started the war, a war that was not one-sided in favor of Andraste as the Chantry implies, but a war that was initially a lost cause, because charisma and preaching the Maker's name was not enough to defeat Tevinter. So they were losing not only the war, but Andraste's believers. So she called upon entities from the Fade to help her. People saw singing and praying, but it was actually summoning. And so the entity of War and the mortal became one, with a relationship much like Anders and Justice. Andraste, both the charismatic prophet and the war general.

And here we actually see the war the Chantry implied, where Andraste and her barbarian armies freed the elves and started winning. Andraste became a legend. Her reputation before the joining with spirit Andraste is gone, she is now known as their savior and conqueror of Tevinter lands. The bride of the Maker.

Tbh, I'm mostly basing this stuff in the fact that the prophet is named "Andraste", the celtic warrior goddess of war, summoned only in dire emergencies. What's funny is that she is summoned through sacrificial offerings because blood is supposedly the most potent of all magic, so even in the story of Andraste's name there's still some kind of blood ritual haha.

And what's more is that the Queen who summoned the goddess of warcraft was also seen by the people as some kind of reincarnation of Andraste, because she was charismatic and capable of winning battles. And at the end of her war, she was seen by the people as both a Iceni Tribal Leader and a manifestation of a Celtic goddess. Which is sort of similar to Dragon Age Andraste, a leader and an agent of the gods.

That's it really. Not a lot of digging through the lore like you guys, but I thought maybe Bioware has taken something from the Celctic goddess when they named their character "Andraste"

[TheForgottenOne]

Andraste, I believe started out as a shout out from the creators (Bioware) that the impossible could be achieved and that Thedas is not new to revolution.

The Warden united Fereldan under a single banner to end the Fifth Blight. The task was Herculean and partly similar to what Andraste did during the Exalted March.

 

What I don't understand is why Maferath turned on Andraste in the end? Is it just jealousy?

Maferath was Andraste's husband. This means he knew Andraste better than several other people close to her. Possibilities for his betrayal could include:

• Maferath believed Andraste and the whole Bride of the Maker thing in the beginning. Yet as the March drew to an end he probably realized her true intentions (whatever they might be) and went against her.
• Maferath probably knew her intentions from the start and played along but got cold feet in the end.
• Let's say Andraste was being manipulated by a powerful Fade spirit calling itself the Maker. Maferath could have been manipulated by another Fade spirit into betraying her (possibly an Old God)

 

Another thing I can't accept is Hessarion's sudden pity for Andraste.

By now we know the soul warp thing was known by quite a lot of beings. If Andraste was an OGB or was in any way linked to the Archdemons or the Blight she probably could shift bodies.

She could have easily possessed Hessarion, put on a show of remorse and sorrow, destroy her old body and then the new Hessarion-Andraste could take up the Chant of Light further advancing her motives of spreading a new religion

[TheForgottenOne]

But say Hessarion and Andraste were lovers. It would explain his remorse and Maferath's betrayal perfectly.

[Gervaise]

Then again suppose that Hessarion was really Andraste's father, which would account for his show of mercy (and the fact that his wife was the one who wanted her to suffer).  

 

I don't seriously doubt the story that she was a slave.   Even Maferath may have only been nominally free, so long as he provided troops when the Magisters needed them.   What they did was exploit the weakness of the Imperium following the First Blight.    Practically their first action was to attack Kirkwall.    This made good sense.   The Freemarches have probably always been good farm land, so a good place to get the army provisioned, and also it was the centre of the slave trade, so freeing them would also severely impact on the economy of the Imperium.   It would also give them a large additional supply of troops.   The Magisters were already struggling to keep control over their vast empire after the First Blight and many ordinary citizens had lost faith their gods, one of whom appeared to have turned on them, the cult of whom was closely linked to the Magisters.    The people also realised that their overlords were no longer invincible, so it only needed a charismatic leader to make rebellion a reality.

 

The Chantry only tended to supress information, or alter it, if it didn't lend itself to bolstering their control and that of the nobles who supported them.  Now the fact is that a slave rebelling is not an idea that either the Chantry or the nobles would wish to promote, since it could lead to downtrodden peasantry aspiring to something similar.   So the fact that they allowed that part of the story to persist would suggest that it was so well known that she was a slave, they couldn't overlook that fact and maintain their position of authority as leaders of her cult.       What they liked to promote was the idea that blessed by the Maker, Andraste was nearly unstoppable, and her crusade only failed at the final hurdle due to treachery.      This was because a man, Maferath, was jealous of her popularity and her relationship with the Maker.   Yet even Chantry scholars acknowledge that in fact it may have been because Maferath was a realist and realised that they were over reaching themselves.   I just feel that it was probably a mixture of the two but that Maferath was not so much jealous of the Maker as fearful of the control it exercised over his wife and thus effectively over him as well.

 

I have to admit to being fascinated by both the Andraste story and the associated one of Shartan.   Every time we are asked to find out something concerning them or some part of their history, particularly that not admitted to by the Chantry, I am only too eager to comply.   The Sacred Ashes quest was one of my favourite parts of DAO.    I also always read any extracts of the Chant that are supplied carefully.    Hence my regret that those who claim to promote the Chant actually for the most part ignore what it actually says.    My characters tend to be Andrastrians but anti-Chantry, Black or White.   They don't particularly care if the Maker has gone off, they just want a fair society in the way suggested by the Chant.  If my Inquisitor can in any way promote the teachings of Andraste without being seen to favour the Chantry I shall be well pleased.   Since we can apparently play up the religious connotations of our mysterious survival if we so wish, may be this is something that can happen.    

[DKJaigen]

I agree. Why can't Andraste just be Andraste? 

 

Because not even the chantry seem to know what andraste was. Remember that the current chantry was 1 of the dozen cults that raised to prominence.

Since in this world god like beings are real i suspect her nature is a bit more then it seems. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I should mention that the birth date of Andraste is specifically unknown and contested by scholars. So we don't know exactly if she was born in the same year as the death of Dumat.

 

Second, this theory does fit well with circumstantial evidence. But that's all. The Guardian of Sacred Ashes is a first hand disciple of Andraste, the cult in the town are all descended from people who turned to dragon worship generations later. The Guardian seems to regard the notion of Andraste being a dragon to be as silly as the Chantry would.

 

If it were true, though it might explain one or two things about her. We can't know if an OGB would have the powers of Andraste until we see one. Or maybe the Maker took notice of Andraste because he recognized Dumat? But it would also paint the Chantry story in an interesting and poetic light. Dumat is the one who is blamed for turning humanity from worship of the Maker in the first place, if he were reborn as the woman who turned humanity back to it, then I think many Andrastians may consider that the ultimate act of redemption.

[TheWhitefire]

Hold on, we don't actually know anything about what the Guardian is or what it believes. The Guardian is a spirit, likely pulled from the fade by mages and bound to guard the ashes, or perhaps at one time it was a real person who somehow became associated with a spirit which then lost its identity and became confused as to whether it was a spirit or a person. Remember, ghosts aren't real in Dragon Age. But Spirits, which often consume the dieing memories and emotions of non-fade creatures and lose their own identiy in the process, are real. So saying that the Guardian's testimony that Andraste being a dragon is not true is evidence that she could never turn into a dragon is... suspect. Because it's enitrely possible he believes that, but has no reason other than "Well, I've always believed that."

Here's some food for thought:

The fade is fueled by dreams and memories. We know that Dreamers could shape the Fade, because they were exceptionally powerful. Everyone except dwarves and qunari visit the fade when they dream. The Black City is the only consistent piece of landscape that exists in the Fade.

What if the Black City we see in the Fade is not actually the real Black City, the unacheivable metropolis that the Maker once inhabited and brought his children to? What if it's simply the embodiment of the Chantry's Cultural Hegemony over Thedas? The real black city (Which, based on what Corypheus said, I suspect may have been a black city before the Magisters even arrived, and was never actually golden despite what Dumat and the others promised the magisters) exists somewhere else. We know that there is a place beyond the Fade that's accessed by the Eluvians, and if the books mentioned in Arl Foreshadow's journal are any indication, this place beyond the Fade may actually house some survivors of Arlathan.... What if the Black City is in this place? I've also heard the theory that the Black City may have actually been Arlathan itself. And if that's the case, why was the city black before Corypheus and the others arrived? Had someone already razed it?

[Reaverwind]

What if the Black City we see in the Fade is not actually the real Black City, the unacheivable metropolis that the Maker once inhabited and brought his children to? What if it's simply the embodiment of the Chantry's Cultural Hegemony over Thedas? The real black city (Which, based on what Corypheus said, I suspect may have been a black city before the Magisters even arrived, and was never actually golden despite what Dumat and the others promised the magisters) exists somewhere else. We know that there is a place beyond the Fade that's accessed by the Eluvians, and if the books mentioned in Arl Foreshadow's journal are any indication, this place beyond the Fade may actually house some survivors of Arlathan.... What if the Black City is in this place? I've also heard the theory that the Black City may have actually been Arlathan itself. And if that's the case, why was the city black before Corypheus and the others arrived? Had someone already razed it?

 

I've had this wild theory that Arlathan was moved into the Fade to contain some threat (related to the Blight), which ended up being partially released due to the antics of some misguided magisters. The Chantry later misinterprets what happened.

[TheWhitefire]

Masked Empire shows us that the elves knew of places other than the Fade, however, places that could contain a threat like that much better than the Fade could, since anything that dreams can enter the Fade. The Arlathan elves were capable of creating pocket dimensions specifically for connecting the Eluvians that are hostile and nearly impossible to traverse for non-elves. Why use the Fade when you can create an entirely new dimension to hide your city in?

[Eveangaline]

Masked Empire shows us that the elves knew of places other than the Fade, however, places that could contain a threat like that much better than the Fade could, since anything that dreams can enter the Fade. The Arlathan elves were capable of creating pocket dimensions specifically for connecting the Eluvians that are hostile and nearly impossible to traverse for non-elves. Why use the Fade when you can create an entirely new dimension to hide your city in?

 

Morrigan walked into the eluvian only to accidently walk into a crowded street and get arrested for coming in without a passport.

[The Night Haunter]

Masked Empire shows us that the elves knew of places other than the Fade, however, places that could contain a threat like that much better than the Fade could, since anything that dreams can enter the Fade. The Arlathan elves were capable of creating pocket dimensions specifically for connecting the Eluvians that are hostile and nearly impossible to traverse for non-elves. Why use the Fade when you can create an entirely new dimension to hide your city in?

Because it sounds like it took everything the Elves had to make those Eluvians, and they are simply paths between two points. Creating a dimension large enough to fit an entire city, plus with no anchor (I am assuming the Eluvians act as anchors since they can be moved, as evinced by Merrill) it seems like it would be the work of a god to move an entire city to a pocket dimension. 

Having said that it could very well have been done, with some problems. Like maybe it is no longer connected to Thedas and so the Elves of Arlathan have no way back. Until the events of DA6, lol.

[TheWhitefire]

Morrigan walked into the eluvian only to accidently walk into a crowded street and get arrested for coming in without a passport.

She's also (ostensibly) human, which could account for that.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Hold on, we don't actually know anything about what the Guardian is or what it believes. The Guardian is a spirit, likely pulled from the fade by mages and bound to guard the ashes, or perhaps at one time it was a real person who somehow became associated with a spirit which then lost its identity and became confused as to whether it was a spirit or a person. Remember, ghosts aren't real in Dragon Age. But Spirits, which often consume the dieing memories and emotions of non-fade creatures and lose their own identiy in the process, are real. So saying that the Guardian's testimony that Andraste being a dragon is not true is evidence that she could never turn into a dragon is... suspect. Because it's enitrely possible he believes that, but has no reason other than "Well, I've always believed that."

Here's some food for thought:

The fade is fueled by dreams and memories. We know that Dreamers could shape the Fade, because they were exceptionally powerful. Everyone except dwarves and qunari visit the fade when they dream. The Black City is the only consistent piece of landscape that exists in the Fade.

What if the Black City we see in the Fade is not actually the real Black City, the unacheivable metropolis that the Maker once inhabited and brought his children to? What if it's simply the embodiment of the Chantry's Cultural Hegemony over Thedas? The real black city (Which, based on what Corypheus said, I suspect may have been a black city before the Magisters even arrived, and was never actually golden despite what Dumat and the others promised the magisters) exists somewhere else. We know that there is a place beyond the Fade that's accessed by the Eluvians, and if the books mentioned in Arl Foreshadow's journal are any indication, this place beyond the Fade may actually house some survivors of Arlathan.... What if the Black City is in this place? I've also heard the theory that the Black City may have actually been Arlathan itself. And if that's the case, why was the city black before Corypheus and the others arrived? Had someone already razed it?

 

The Guardian appears to be a living person. He doesn't act or look like any of the spirits in the temple. He appears to be physically present. He tells you that he was a disciple of Andraste and that the dragon is not Andraste.

[Gervaise]

The Guardian is likely a similar sort of spirit/mortal combo as Wynne and later Evangeline is.    A spirit of faith joined with him in order to allow him to maintain his watch over Andraste's resting place.   This would also account for why he appears able to read people's minds/emotions, which is something spirits and demons are able to do.  Now I've never harmed the ashes.   Does he attack if you do?    I know Lelianna does but you'd think the Guardian would intervene as well.     I also wonder what happens to him if you tell Genitivi about the ashes and pilgrims start making their way there.   Does each pilgrim have to pass the test or has the Warden completing it, negated the need for anyone else?    I thought the Guardian said he would remain there until the fall of Tevinter, so that would mean he would still be there.   And isn't there a scenario if you don't kill the dragon, that the shrine is destroyed by it but he disappears with the ashes?  

 

I have to admit, that whilst his presence doesn't back up all the Chantry's claims, it did at least confirm for me that there really was an Andraste and the part of the story about her death and Harvard rescuing her ashes was true.

[wtfman99]

Speaking of Andraste, going through Origins the other day and the whole dragon cult thing saying Andraste returned in a very radiant form...a dragon. Do you think maybe they just got the wrong dragon? Made me think of Flemmeth and possibly foreshadowing....or am I reading too much into it?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Guardian is likely a similar sort of spirit/mortal combo as Wynne and later Evangeline is.    A spirit of faith joined with him in order to allow him to maintain his watch over Andraste's resting place.   This would also account for why he appears able to read people's minds/emotions, which is something spirits and demons are able to do.  Now I've never harmed the ashes.   Does he attack if you do?    I know Lelianna does but you'd think the Guardian would intervene as well.     I also wonder what happens to him if you tell Genitivi about the ashes and pilgrims start making their way there.   Does each pilgrim have to pass the test or has the Warden completing it, negated the need for anyone else?    I thought the Guardian said he would remain there until the fall of Tevinter, so that would mean he would still be there.   And isn't there a scenario if you don't kill the dragon, that the shrine is destroyed by it but he disappears with the ashes?  

 

I have to admit, that whilst his presence doesn't back up all the Chantry's claims, it did at least confirm for me that there really was an Andraste and the part of the story about her death and Harvard rescuing her ashes was true.

 

The Guardian does attack a Warden who defiles the Ashes, and the Warden is forced to kill him. And he leaves behind a body in such a case. He claims his power is tied to the Ashes. I think the Trials are there for any individual pilgrim, so they would have to pass through them. There is an epilogue where the Dragon prevents the Chantry from verifying the Ashes if you tell Genetivi about it and don't kill the Dragon. It says that after the Dragon leaves the Urn is gone and the temple fades into obscurity..

[Brian ofthe Dialogue Wheel]

Flemeth's story of her origin, leaving a poor husband for a rich one who promised things he never provided and betrayed and killed the first husband could be taken as an explanation for her life as Andraste. I'm convinced she's Andraste.

[TheWhitefire]

The Guardian appears to be a living person. He doesn't act or look like any of the spirits in the temple. He appears to be physically present. He tells you that he was a disciple of Andraste and that the dragon is not Andraste.

Only issue with that is that (as is stated in Asunder, and I"m sure in the games somewhere) ghosts aren't real. So there's no way he could be unless, like Cole, Wynne, and Evangeline he's some hybrid between the two.