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[Jedi Master of Orion]

He's not a ghost. He's still alive. The Ashes or the lyrium in the mountains or whatever it was allowed to him survive for a thousand years.

[The Night Haunter]

He's not a ghost. He's still alive. The Ashes or the lyrium in the mountains or whatever it was allowed to him survive for a thousand years.

I don't recall ever getting confirmation about that.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I thought it was pretty obvious. He's solid and not "ghostly" or incorporeal like the spirits in the rest of the temple are and I'm pretty sure he tells you he's been waiting there since the time of Andraste until the Imperium has crumbled. He also talks like he is alive. And Oghren suggests that the reason he is alive is perhaps because the lyrium.

[TheWhitefire]

I don't recall Oghren ever saying that. And the guardian has a pretty otherworldly voice for a non-spirit.

In fact, Morrigan even dismisses by saying "I will not play your games spirit." I would take her word over a dwarfs on anything concerning the Fade.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Oghren's exact words are "What exactly is keeping you alive Guardian?"

[TheWhitefire]

Which does nothing to actually strengthen your argument. He could, indeed, still be alive, but that doesn't mean he's human. In fact, all the evidence seems to be to the contrary. Morrigan clearly thinks he's a spirit. He glows, talks, and acts like a spirit. He does not give himself a name, he is simply "the guardian", tasked to help pilgrims on their way to the sacred ashes. This more closely resembles how Spirits name themselves, like Torpor, Valour, and Justice. Kolgrim's ancestors were supposed to be the human protectors, but obviously things changed and they took up dragon worship instead. The question becomes "why did they take up dragon worship?" If they were the most devout of the Andrastians, a sect that predates the Orlesian Chantry, what could have driven them to see a dragon and thing "Whoa, dude, that's so obvious Andraste." There's a number of other major differences, for instance they have male priests, something no other Chantry has. There are male Chanters, but the priesthood is exclusively female.

What tales did they have of Andraste in their cult that made them suspect a dragon could be the new physical incarnation of the prophetess? Much like the apocryphal tale of the Ark of the Covenant being brought out of Israel into Ethiopia, such religious sects based on legends and myths exist within the closest analogue we have to the Chantry, which is the Catholic and Orthodox Christian Churches. In the early church, sects based on particular myths or teachings, such as the Gnostics and the Aryans existed in isolated areas, so I'd be curious to see what teachings and myths that Kolgrim's followers believed that lead them to the worship of Dragons.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Spirits are immortal by nature. Oghren was obviously trying to figure out why he was immortal because it was strange in his case.  He tells you he knew Andraste and carried her ashes from Tevinter. If you kill him he leaves behind a body. He also tells you why the cultists turned to Dragon worship because he saw it happen. He says that an ancestor of Kolgrim started the cult and that "the dragon is a fearsome creature and they must have seen her as an alternative to the absent Maker and his silent Andraste."

 

He even says "They have forgotten Andraste and their promise."

[TheWhitefire]

Cole is also a spirit that is quite corporeal and I'm willing to bet would leave behind a body if you killed him. It's also possible the Guardian leaves behind a body because it uses a human model and the game's engine doesn't support those discorporating like Shades and Rage demons when they die. Heck, there's elves and humans who do discorporate when there's too many entities on the screen, so using that as evidence is shakey at best.

Oghren is a dwarf. Oghren is seeing a being that looks, to him, to be human. He has never entered the Fade, and has likely little to no experience with Fade spirits.

On the other hand, Morrigan is a Mage and has a great deal of experience with Fade spirits. I'd take her word and experience with this particular situation over Oghren's any day.

Saying "Well, Kolgrim's dad started the whole thing" doesn't really explain much. It doesn't tell us why Kolgrim's dad started it, and he offers an obviously biased opinion on why Kolgrim and his ilk started Dragon Worship. Such cults don't form in a vacuum, there's always something that might drive them towards it. Even the Israelites didn't just start worshipping the Golden Calf Aaron built out of spite, they did it because they had built it in honour to Moses first, and their reverence for him turned to worship after the long time he spent on the mountain.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I always saw the Guardian as like that one Knight Templar in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, being kept alive by supernatural means.

 

In fact, the whole Gauntlet reminded me of that movie. A temple built into a mountain in the middle of nowhere, riddled with deadly tests that only a faithful person can overcome and watched over by an immortal guardian, all leading to one of the most important artifacts of that religion. Artifacts which are both used to heal an old man on the brink of death. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't know enough about Cole. But he's from a book, and we have know we to assess what he would look like rendered in the game or what would happen if he was stabbed. If the Guardian was a spirit he wouldn't leave a body like humans do. Spirits and demons leave their own type of "body" to loot and have their own death animation.

 

The Guardian does explain it. And he explains it quite clearly. They lost faith in their promise to guard Andraste's resting place because the Maker and Andraste were silent and the dragon provided a more tangible alternative because he says "A true believer would not require audacious displays of power."

 

Point is, he still knows better than they do. He knew Andraste personally. The Dragon Cult did not. Unless you believe he was lying in which case what's the point of arguing about what he is if you don't believe any information about him is reliable.

[Momiji.mii]

Thanks for keeping the topic alive with great discussion! I'm enjoying both sides of the argument and I have to say that they both sound plausible to me. I wonder if Bioware will ever let us know the truth... 

 

I'll be switching topics in a day or so, but it's absolutely ok to continue previous discussions. 

 

--- 

 

Back on topic: 

 

I think that in-game technicalities, like bodies of dead enemies or graphics, might not be the best proof. For all we know, the guardian leaving behind a body could be an issue of technical limitations. The writing could be seen as more reliable, if it wasn't for the fact that Bioware loves their unreliable narrators, as we've seen again and again, i.e. with the revelations in Legacy compared with Chantry lore, etc. The Guardian could be absolutely sure of the truth of what he's saying, and still be completely wrong. Or Kolgrim could be dead wrong as well. 

[TheWhitefire]

I think his information is unreliable because I think he doesn't even know what he is anymore. Even if he is human, he's forgotten his own name. I also think an entire population of people just suddenly "losing faith" is unrealistic. There's always a reason for that loss of faith, and it's never simply "Well, we're bored and don't want to do what we've been doing for hundreds of years." A culture like that doesn't just do an about face and suddenly switch gears from one thing to something completely antithetical to what they were doing. They don't go from guarding the ashes of the prophetess to worshipping a big fire breathing monster in a single generation because they "lost faith." That doesn't tell us anything, other than the (extremely biased) guardian's opinion.

Why did they lose faith? What toxicity had come to exist in their culture that caused this? Why do they have male priests as opposed to female priests? How did Kolgrim's father convince a group of people who had an entire culture based around guarding and hiding this sacred site and relic to doing something that their ancestor's most hated foes, the Tevinters, used to do? What stories and cultural moors did he draw on to do this?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Why did they lose faith? What toxicity had come to exist in their culture that caused this? Why do they have male priests as opposed to female priests? How did Kolgrim's father convince a group of people who had an entire culture based around guarding and hiding this sacred site and relic to doing something that their ancestor's most hated foes, the Tevinters, used to do? What stories and cultural moors did he draw on to do this?

1) There could be many factors, such as thinking they have been abandoned to false prophets, probably the latter considering.

2) As I said in number 1, as their faith waned for whatever reason that pit was filled with resentment and other negative aspects. 

3) They existed before the Chantry, so they never heard the female priests only rule. 

4) Never doubt the power of a carismatic person. We only need to look at our history to see that. 

5) No idea. Probably since he was the head priest nobody questioned him since he was chosen. 

[Ozzy]

"Losing the faith" could be understood as the faith itself becoming gradually corrupted over generations with its original purpose becoming diluted. So, it's more of an unconscious process. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

The original disciples of Andraste would have an easy time swearing to protect the templar and mountain. Fast forward 20 generations and the decendants might have a hard time understanding why they have to be stuck on the mountain. Their minds start to look for answers, and apparently, since their faith was already wavering, they found their answers in the Dragon.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think his information is unreliable because I think he doesn't even know what he is anymore. Even if he is human, he's forgotten his own name. I also think an entire population of people just suddenly "losing faith" is unrealistic. There's always a reason for that loss of faith, and it's never simply "Well, we're bored and don't want to do what we've been doing for hundreds of years." A culture like that doesn't just do an about face and suddenly switch gears from one thing to something completely antithetical to what they were doing. They don't go from guarding the ashes of the prophetess to worshipping a big fire breathing monster in a single generation because they "lost faith." That doesn't tell us anything, other than the (extremely biased) guardian's opinion.

Why did they lose faith? What toxicity had come to exist in their culture that caused this? Why do they have male priests as opposed to female priests? How did Kolgrim's father convince a group of people who had an entire culture based around guarding and hiding this sacred site and relic to doing something that their ancestor's most hated foes, the Tevinters, used to do? What stories and cultural moors did he draw on to do this?

 

You don't know that he has forgotten his own name. He just know he doesn't tell you what it is.