94 réponses à ce sujet

[Turian Master Race]

@RTK2Lional
LMG is a machine that a single soldier can use (i.e. do not need a crew). It's not a "caster machinegun"
Typhoon and SF are LMGs as well.

 

Of course none of them needs a crew, so what?

 

The thyphoon and the spitfire may be light machine gun in name but they are not light at all. Putting them on a caster is counterproductive as long as you want to detonate self-primed combos.

 

Of course the Revenant is not a caster machine gun by definition, it is not written on it etc. However, you can use it as such, since the weight allows it and the accuracy can be cured by hardcover. It is your choice, but with the Revenant you have this choice, with the Thyphoon and the Spitfire you don't.

[Turian Master Race]

Hard cover makes most guns better.  Almost any hitscan gun other than the Harrier, in fact.  That's like saying "try it on the Turian Soldier."  Of course it's going to be better.  It's still underwhelming compared to other available options.

 

If it so obvious then why people consistently ignore this easy solution? Reading this thread would make any layman think that there is no way to make this gun work, you cannot hit the barn's wall inside out with it, etc. Telling this same layman that by sticking to hardcover you can elimante the accuracy problem, I am sure he/she would ask: then what is all the fuss about? What is the problem?

 

Almost any sowftcover can be used as a hardcover: doorways, corners, windows, containers, etc. There is an abundance of hard cover even if you play an aggressive mobile style.

 

Last but not least, it is not for weapon platforms, ofc, they have better alternatives. Try it on a caster.

[Kislitsin]

Last but not least, it is not for weapon platforms, ofc, they have better alternatives. Try it on a caster.

Yeah, because casters don't have a better alternatives like Arc pistol, talon, palladin, wraith, graal, pirranha and so on.

The gun with mediocre burst damage, which only advantage is sustained dps is obviously a good choice for caster.

[Olivia Wilde]

I use it with the FQE

 

I unlocked both the character and the weapon on the same day, which may be why in some way

[Turian Master Race]

Yeah, because casters don't have a better alternatives like Arc pistol, talon, palladin, wraith, graal, pirranha and so on.

The gun with mediocre burst damage, which only advantage is sustained dps is obviously a good choice for caster.

 

Please note the title of the thread.

[LemurFromTheId]

The thyphoon and the spitfire may be light machine gun in name but they are not light at all.

 

I don't think you understand what the term "light machine gun" means. It doesn't mean they're light compared to other small arms, it means they are light compared to other machine guns.

 

Most machine guns are fixed on a vehicle or attached to a heavy tripod or bipod. They may be operated by a small crew. Heavy machine guns are way too heavy for an individual soldier to carry. Medium machine guns are light enough to be portable, but they're usually still too bulky and cumbersome for a typical squad to carry one with them. Light machine guns are light and compact enough that a soldier can carry one as his personal weapon. They generally can be fired hand-held, but are meant to be used with a built-in bipod. But they are still much heavier and bulkier than an ordinary assault rifle, i.e. not light at all.

[Turian Master Race]

I don't think you understand what the term "light machine gun" means. It doesn't mean they're light compared to other small arms, it means they are light compared to other machine guns.

 

Most machine guns are fixed on a vehicle or attached to a heavy tripod or bipod. They may be operated by a small crew. Heavy machine guns are way too heavy for an individual soldier to carry. Medium machine guns are light enough to be portable, but they're usually still too bulky and cumbersome for a typical squad to carry one with them. Light machine guns are light and compact enough that a soldier can carry one as his personal weapon. They generally can be fired hand-held, but are meant to be used with a built-in bipod. But they are still much heavier and bulkier than an ordinary assault rifle, i.e. not light at all.

 

I understand it perfectly but what you wrote is utterly irrelevant to ME3. By definition every machine gun has to be light in the terminology of yours, since there are no crews. We had this discusson (a short one), it is fine. However, what is relevant for us, at least for me when I use a caster, whether the given gun allows for self-primed combos or not. In this regard the revenant is light enough, the thyphoon and the spitfire is not.

 

I also undertand that my first post might have been misleading for someone raised with this military terminology. Please note again, I am not questioning that the thyphoon or the spitfire is a light machine gun according to this terminology  (and I never said such thing). I am just saying that the Revenant is light enough to be used by casters and still be able to self-detonate. Yeah, the first sentence of the original post could be misleading, in this regard (i.e. military terminology) if so feel free to ignore it. 

[PoetryAvenger]

Every once in a while I'll stick it on the Justicar in the vain attempt to have fun with it like in 2, but other than that, can't say I do.

Also this back-and-forth between RTK2Lional and Kislitsin is awesome because of avatars.
Garrus and the council member are totally having an Old West-style staredown.

[LemurFromTheId]

I understand it perfectly but what you wrote is utterly irrelevant to ME3. By definition every machine gun has to be light in the terminology of yours, since there are no crews. We had this discusson (a short one), it is fine. However, what is relevant for us, at least for me when I use a caster, whether the given gun allows for self-primed combos or not. In this regard the revenant is light enough, the thyphoon and the spitfire is not.

 

I also undertand that my first post might have been misleading for someone raised with this military terminology. Please note again, I am not questioning that the thyphoon or the spitfire is a light machine gun according to this terminology  (and I never said such thing). I am just saying that the Revenant is light enough to be used by casters and still be able to self-detonate. Yeah, the first sentence of the original post could be misleading, in this regard (i.e. military terminology) if so feel free to ignore it. 

 

Since when does the Typhoon not "allow" self-combos? It doesn't weigh any more than the Claymore. Sure, you may need to adjust the build accordingly, but there's nothing really prohibitive about the weight.

 

In my opinion, the ramp-up time is bigger deal for casters than the weight, as is the fact that it lacks synergies that some other weapons have with casters (e.g. "free" casting between shots, reload hiding).

[capn233]

Revenant only weighs 1.25 at X.  It isn't going to hinder cooldowns all that much.  Of course you may not want a screen shaking, inaccurate, mediocre damage weapon on a power user.

 

Whether or not the Revenant is classed as an LMG by whatever organizations in Mass Effect is academic.  It was buffed to the point where it is average in weight for an assault rifle.

[Kislitsin]

Please note the title of the thread.

So non accuracy boosting class = caster?
k, well it makes sense within your logical apparatus, where LMG is "even lighter LMG".

Still doesn't answer my question, what is the reason to use sustained dps gun with <meh burst dps on a caster.

[Turian Master Race]

Revenant only weighs 1.25 at X.  It isn't going to hinder cooldowns all that much.  Of course you may not want a screen shaking, inaccurate, mediocre damage weapon on a power user.

 

Whether or not the Revenant is classed as an LMG by whatever organizations in Mass Effect is academic.  It was buffed to the point where it is average in weight for an assault rifle.

 

This is what I am saying (i.e. it is light and the classificaton is not important), however the inaccuracy can be cured by hardcover and the damage is not mediocre at all.

 

Comparing to other ARs according Cyonan's spreadsheet:

 

https://docs.google....tput=html&gid=8

 

It's single clip DPS is fourth behind the Mattock, Harrier and the PPR.

 

It's multiclip DPs with reload cancel is 7th behind the Mattock, Harrier, PPR, Spitfire, Valkyrie and Typhoon, however the difference between the Revenant and the Typhoon is only 4 points (694 vs. 697). Of course both the Spitfire and Typhoon has multipliers and Valkyrie has a better headhsot multiplier but the Revenant's multiclip DPS is not bad at all. Especially if you count in the fact that all of the other weapons - except the Mattock- is UR whereas the Revenant is a rare. 

[capn233]

This is what I am saying (i.e. it is light and the classificaton is not important), however the inaccuracy can be cured by hardcover and the damage is not mediocre at all.

 

Comparing to other ARs according Cyonan's spreadsheet:

 

https://docs.google....tput=html&gid=8

 

It's single clip DPS is fourth behind the Mattock, Harrier and the PPR.

 

It's multiclip DPs with reload cancel is 7th behind the Mattock, Harrier, PPR, Spitfire, Valkyrie and Typhoon, however the difference between the Revenant and the Typhoon is only 4 points (694 vs. 697). Of course both the Spitfire and Typhoon has multipliers and Valkyrie has a better headhsot multiplier but the Revenant's multiclip DPS is not bad at all. Especially if you count in the fact that all of the other weapons - except the Mattock- is UR whereas the Revenant is a rare. 

 

Revenant has twice the zoom aim error of the average AR.  It has worse stability and accuracy than the Lancer with only slightly more stat burst DPS.  A weapon that is lighter and supposedly is bad at mook killing.

 

Then you can throw in the Valkyrie which is lighter and has only slightly lower stat burst DPS, but a higher headshot multiplier and better accuracy which means better potential mook damage.

 

Also whether or not it is average or above average in the AR class isn't a particularly ringing endorsement.  The AR class as a whole is not a go to class for many characters.  And not many people want to sit around holding the trigger on a target when they are playing a caster.

[Turian Master Race]

So non accuracy boosting class = caster?
k, well it makes sense within your logical apparatus, where LMG is "even lighter LMG".

Still doesn't answer my question, what is the reason to use sustained dps gun with <meh burst dps on a caster.

 

I never said the first and I already explained the second several times.

 

Please read the OP question once again:

The Revenant on non-accuracyboosting classes - Does anyone use it?

To this question my answer was that yes I use it on casters, because (and here is your answer too):

• it is light weight
• accuracy is not a problem from hard cover

 

add to this:

• because it has a good DPS.

 

I use it because I tried it on many different kits and I use it because it works (for the above reasons).

 

End of story.

 

This my answer, please note I never made any generalizations about casters beeing the only non-accuracy boosting class or about the terminology of machine guns.

[Turian Master Race]

Revenant has twice the zoom aim error of the average AR.  It has worse stability and accuracy than the Lancer with only slightly more stat DPS.  A weapon that is lighter and supposedly is bad at mook killing.

 

Then you can throw in the Valkyrie which is lighter and has only slightly lower stat DPS, but a higher headshot multiplier and better accuracy which means better potential mook damage.

 

Also whether or not it is average or above average in the AR class isn't a particularly ringing endorsement.  The AR class as a whole is not a go to class for many characters.  And not many people want to sit around holding the trigger on a target when they are playing a caster.

 

Once again you are comparing URs to a rare. Surprise of surprise it comes out that the URs are slightly better (if at all). Wow!

 

Also, please note the title of the thread.

[Miniditka77]

If it so obvious then why people consistently ignore this easy solution? Reading this thread would make any layman think that there is no way to make this gun work, you cannot hit the barn's wall inside out with it, etc. Telling this same layman that by sticking to hardcover you can elimante the accuracy problem, I am sure he/she would ask: then what is all the fuss about? What is the problem?

 

Almost any sowftcover can be used as a hardcover: doorways, corners, windows, containers, etc. There is an abundance of hard cover even if you play an aggressive mobile style.

 

Last but not least, it is not for weapon platforms, ofc, they have better alternatives. Try it on a caster.

 

Because hard cover makes you more immobile and forces you to expose yourself to enemies when firing.  This downside outweighs the benefits of hard cover on higher levels, when you can go from full health/shields to dead in 1 second.  Most of the most experienced players have found that they are more effective by being mobile, using soft cover to be able to fire continuously (this is key for DPS), and using weapons and setups that don't require hard cover to be effective.  The Revenant doesn't work well at all with that play style unless you have an ability that boosts accuracy, like Marksman. 

[Cyonan]

Because hard cover makes you more immobile and forces you to expose yourself to enemies when firing.  This downside outweighs the benefits of hard cover on higher levels, when you can go from full health/shields to dead in 1 second.  Most of the most experienced players have found that they are more effective by being mobile, using soft cover to be able to fire continuously (this is key for DPS), and using weapons and setups that don't require hard cover to be effective.  The Revenant doesn't work well at all with that play style unless you have an ability that boosts accuracy, like Marksman. 

 

I'd make the argument that if you can't use hard cover effectively on the higher difficulties then you aren't experienced enough.

 

Unless you want maximum effectiveness in which case you aren't using the Revenant anyway, hardcover or not.

[Turian Master Race]

Because hard cover makes you more immobile and forces you to expose yourself to enemies when firing.  This downside outweighs the benefits of hard cover on higher levels, when you can go from full health/shields to dead in 1 second.  Most of the most experienced players have found that they are more effective by being mobile, using soft cover to be able to fire continuously (this is key for DPS), and using weapons and setups that don't require hard cover to be effective.  The Revenant doesn't work well at all with that play style unless you have an ability that boosts accuracy, like Marksman. 

 

I can only repeat what I said before. I tried it, it works. I tried it on gold/plat with different kits and it works just fine. Of course it requres adjustments, it is not the same as apparently BSN standard spawn rushing/nuking style, though you can be aggressive if you want.

 

Did you ever try it on casters?

[TheNightSlasher]

A lot has happened here since I last checked yesterday.

 

Just to clarify a things about my OP:

1. I never said revenant's damage output is comparable/superior to URs like harrier, valkyrie, lancer, typhoon etc. I know it's not. The on-paper DPS is very hard to achieve in reality because of the terrible accuracy and recoil issues.

2. My post was more along the lines of 'getting the most out of revenant'. HM, DM, MM are some ways to counter the accuracy issue. Hard-cover is another way to do that. My OP was about modifying you playstyle a bit to get the most out of revenant - as simple as that.

3. In melee range, the poor accuracy is not that big a deal as you'll land most bullets on the enemy even with a bit of spray and pray. Hip-firing at that range does counter some of it's stability issues. Being in melee range doesn't totally overcome it's poor accuracy and stability but it helps a lot.

 

 

About some of the things discussed here:

1. I used it on 'power-based' classes or casters, as many call it. I dislike weapon platforms and so, I tried it on shaman, batsent, batguard among others. For the shaman, it was warp > shoot a bit > shockwave. Batsent - shoot with disruptor > shockwave. Sure, there are better alternatives for casters but I got bored of trying the same set of weapons and tried the revenant instead. It was better than I anticipated.

2. Comparing it with typhoon is understandable from one point of view but on the other hand, typhoon's weight and ramp-up makes it a terrible gun for power-intensive classes (I kinda feel the same about PPR).

 

Once again, I reiterate that revenant is no harrier or even lancer when the discussion of ARs for casters comes up. But, by tweaking the playstyle a bit (focusing on CQC/melee range combat), one can make the revenant work well even on classes without accuracy boost. 

 

I was curious if anyone here did the same for other weapons - tweaking your playstyle to make a sub-optimal weapon work. Unfortunately, there haven't been many responses to that.

 

I may make a video when I get back home about how I use revenant shaman, just for the heck of it.

[Terminator Force]

I have to use this gun only on the kits that can walk at proper speeds with it (Krogans, Batarians, Jetpack guys, Destroyer and.... oh yeah, Volus. I think that's it?... Oh yeah, the Jug too). Tried it once on the Geth Sol, and the gimped walk that feels like my feet are planted when shooting + the fact that Hunter Mode accuracy wasn't enough, and I just started hoping another Phantom would put me out of my misery.

 

So... a scope is a must unless you plan of getting in the face of all enemies.

 

 

 

I usually used it on the Jetpack Sol in the past going from memory, cause stability, no walking penalty, and can get in the face of enemies with that jetpack charge too. Other then that, putting it on a Krogan just feels right (the classic Krogans is what I also used it on).

[Supremocognito]

No, and I probobaly never will again. Getting 140k points with this gun felt like such a grind. The gun's damage output and horrible accuracy made this gun seem worse than the Avenger. I would rather use any uncommon gun or the Avenger over the Revenant.

[Miniditka77]

I'd make the argument that if you can't use hard cover effectively on the higher difficulties then you aren't experienced enough.

 

Unless you want maximum effectiveness in which case you aren't using the Revenant anyway, hardcover or not.

 

You can use hard cover on higher difficulties, but only situationally.  I admit that I'm not the most experienced player, but frequently, you can only poke your head out to shoot for a second or two before you're healthgated, and not firing on the enemy just means they are going to get in better positions to put even more pressure on you. 

 

EDIT: BTW, I'm one of the bigger proponents of using hard cover who posts here.  But even so, I recognize that its usefulness has limits.

[capn233]

Once again you are comparing URs to a rare. Surprise of surprise it comes out that the URs are slightly better (if at all). Wow!

 

Also, please note the title of the thread.

 

Once again?  Interesting, I think I compared it to two UR's, one of which you specifically mentioned in your post, but conveniently didn't mention has better mook single clip DPS.  The other is to point out how large a hindrance the Revenant's poor accuracy is.

 

The title of the thread gets at the heart of the issue.  As I stated before, the Revenant has some of the poorest accuracy (and stability) in the game, with middle of the road damage in the AR class.  I don't have to compare it to UR's if I can choose any weapon on a non-accuracy boosting class, because there are plenty of rares in those classes that trounce it completely.

 

I couldn't care less if you like to run the Revenant.  The hang up is when anyone would claim that it is better for casters than weapon users.  Good weapons are good on any class, but poor weapons are better on the weapon classes.  There is only one class that is a "caster" with accuracy buffs and that is the GE.  It is one of the few where the Revenant isn't completely mediocre.  The Turian Sentinel can get away with it a little due to stability and extra damage from passive, as well as incendiary cheese.  Other than that it is going to be much better on anybody who can buff weapon damage and or accuracy since it is solidly mediocre even considering the 1.25 weight.

[Miniditka77]

I can only repeat what I said before. I tried it, it works. I tried it on gold/plat with different kits and it works just fine. Of course it requres adjustments, it is not the same as apparently BSN standard spawn rushing/nuking style, though you can be aggressive if you want.

 

Did you ever try it on casters?

 

A long time ago, I tried it on the Justicar and the Turian Sentinel (not really a caster, but sort of) and didn't like it much.  In fact, I found that I liked the Lancer, Hurricane, Eagle, Valkyrie, CAR, Mattock, and even the Vindicator better on caster classes.  I did say that I sort of liked it on the Geth Engineer, but I consider that kind of a mixed caster/weapons class like the TSent.  I'll give it another try though.  Do you use the scope?