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[Gervaise]

I was re-reading a codex from Mark of the Assassin, where a Reverend Mother is describing the Chevaliers.   She makes them seem like the very epitome of the noble knight and even comments that those who commit atrocities are not true representatives of the order.   Yet we are told in Masked Empire that the last part of Michel's training in the order was to be let loose with the other trainees in the elven alienage and basically permitted to go on a killing spree.   Now granted they were told they were exacting revenge for some crime committed against a noble women but anyone would know that even if the guilty elves were in the alienage, indiscriminate killing wouldn't necessarily even get to them.   So you would think that the Chantry wouldn't condone such actions.   Yet whenever nobles are committing crimes against the peasantry, and particularly elves, the Chantry doesn't seem to put themselves out much to condemn it.

 

So was the Reverend Mother above so closeted all her life that she was unaware of what goes on or are the senior members of the Chantry merely steaming hypocrites?   I am inclined towards the latter since the reason Celene takes personal action in Halamshiral is at the insistence of the Divine.   Since the Divine is acknowledged to be a worldly woman and has bards like Lelianna who she can use to obtain information, she must have known that the so called elven uprising was the result of an unjust killing of an elven merchant.     Then there was Elthina who constantly sat on the fence when you think she must have had some inkling of the abuses taking place within the Gallows.   Did she not notice the increase in the number of tranquil and that many of these had passed their harrowing?   After all Karl was actually inside the Chantry when we meet him.  

 

From the encounters throughout the two games so far, it would seem at a local level out in the smaller settlements, the Chantry Mothers do a reasonable job but once they obtain a position of power when they could actually make a difference, they conveniently close their eyes to what is going on and only seem to kick up a fuss if their own rights are being threatened.   Compare the attitude of the Grand Cleric in Denerim to the interference with a Templar by Loghain and Howe, with that of her non action with respect to the rape and slaughter of elven brides and their friends, or lack of interest in the fact that Loghain had been authorising the sale of elves from the alienage as slaves.   Surely that was the thing at which she should have been most outraged.   Am I being unfair?

[Mockingword]

Not even slightly.

[MisterJB]

Somewhat unfair yes,

 

To your first point, there is no reason to assume the Reverent Mothers are even aware of the Chevalier initiation(their training is secret, after all) and even if they are, what she says in that codex is that there are Chevaliers who abuse their power to commit attrocities.

That initiation is not something the Chevaliers undertake of their own accord to have fun. It is something they, begrudgingly, endure to be accepted into the Order. If, afterwards, a Chevalier uses his authority to slaugther innocents with impunity, the he or she is abusing his or her power. But during the initiation, it is not their power that is being abused, since they have none at that point, but that of the instructors.

 

Regarding the rebellion in Halamshiral, as unjust as that murder may have been, it doesn't change the fact that the elves were killing innocent guards and merchants. Their murder are just as unjust and deserve justice.

 

Eltinha is a different matter alltogether. She is either being remarkably naive or cunning, it depends upon the point of view. And even if we consider her to be naive, there is no arguing she is, above everything, a good woman.

 

For your final point, there are many nobles who don't pronounce themselves when they hear of Loghain selling elves into slavery. Should we assume they were on board with it? The Grand Cleric spoke when the matter was more involved with the Chantry, that doesn't mean she wasn't outraged by the other accusations.

If she had defended Loghain's actions, then you'd have point. If none of the other nobles were aware of what was going on in the Alienage, why would you think the Chantry had the duty to be? Policing is not exactly in their job description.

 

So, I'd say you're being somewhat unfair. To attain an important position within the Chantry means to be involved in politics and no one in politics has their hands cleans. But we haven't seen that many members of the Chantry acting out of malice or greed.

If you want an example of the Chantry making a difference, there wouldn't be elves in Thedas right now if not for them. They were the ones who ordered the human rulers to be merciful after the war with the Dales.

[Han Shot First]

That Chevalier rite of passage is kind of interesting. It sounds a bit like the Krypteia.

 

 

 

Certain young Spartan men who had completed their training at the agoge with such success that they were marked out as potential future leaders would be given the opportunity to test their skills and prove themselves worthy of the Spartan polity through participation in the Krypteia.

 

Every autumn, according to Plutarch (Life of Lycurgus, 28, 3–7), the Spartan ephors would pro forma declare war on the helot population so that any Spartan citizen could kill a helot without fear of punishment. At night, the chosen kryptes (members of the Krypteia) were sent out into the Laconian countryside armed with knives with the instructions to kill any helot they encountered and to take any food they needed.

 

According to Cartledge, Krypteia members stalked the helot villages and surrounding countryside, spying on the servile population. Their mission was to prevent and/or suppress unrest and rebellion. Troublesome helots could be summarily executed. Such brutal repression of the helots permitted the Spartan élite to successfully control the servile agrarian population and devote themselves to military practice. It may also have contributed to the Spartans' reputation for stealth since a kryptes who got caught was punished by whipping.

 

Only Spartans who had served in the Krypteia as young men could expect to achieve the highest ranks in Spartan society and army. It was felt that only those Spartans who showed the willingness and ability to kill for the state at a young age were worthy to join the leadership in later years.

 

Plato (Laws, I, 633), a scholiast to Plato, and Heraclides Lembos (Fr. Hist. Gr., II, 210) also describe the krypteia.

 

link

[The Ascendant]

I heard about this in Ancient Sparta as well. Interesting parallel with Orlesian Chevaliers. Horrible but interesting.

[MisterJB]

Chevaliers are Thedas' Spartans.

Great, now I want to be one in DAI even more.

[The Ascendant]

Please no 300 parodies eg 'Zees is Orlais!' Hmm now that I think about it 300 with terrible French accents would be hilarious.

[Han Shot First]

The wrong movie about Thermopylae got made. 300 is a cartoonish piece of crap. Gates of Fire would have been a 1000x better, and more realistic.

 

Anyway, back to the topic...

 

 

That particular Reverend Mother seems a bit naive, but that doesn't necessarily mean that every Reverend Mother is or that the Chantry is as a whole. Like any organization the Chantry is made up of individuals and opinions might vary.

[leaguer of one]

It's called propaganda.

[ShadowLordXII]

Burn the Chantry. Nuff Said.

[Hydromatic]

Burn the Chantry. Nuff Said.

 

Burn everything*

[Former_Fiend]

I imagine that, given that each revered mother is an individual person with their own history and background and prejudices and what not, that there are naive revered mothers and there are hypocritical revered mothers. 

[MisterJB]

Burn the Chantry. Nuff Said.

Your avatar is really ironic. The Anderfels are, bar none, the most Chantry devout nation in Thedas.

[ShadowLordXII]

Your avatar is really ironic. The Anderfels are, bar none, the most Chantry devout nation in Thedas.

 

Unintended, but still delicious irony. Being able to give the Chantry a sizable and well-deserved potshot would be icing on the cake for me.

 

Just about every problem concerning the mage-templar conflict and elven oppression since the Fall of the Dales can be somehow indirectly or directly traced back to Chantry policy and actions.

[mikeymoonshine]

Well it's a church, what do you expect? I will say this though, the Chantry seem allot better and allot less corrupt than most of the nobility in Thedas (especially Orlais). 

 

The Chantry has allot of political power so like it or not a powerful figure in the Chantry is a powerful political figure too. They can't just do and say everything they would like. 

[Brian ofthe Dialogue Wheel]

Chantries are a positive force in Thedas- The Lothering chantry saved peasants Lords left to die by Loghaine's nobles. The Chantry, on the other hand, is a political force, and those generally corrupt.

The Templars are necessary in this situation to protect the poor; who better to fight demons than those who are already trained for it?

[Gervaise]

I do not deny that the local chantries do a lot of good.  As I say above, I am thinking more of the regional chantries. the Grand Clerics and the Divine.  I cannot believe that after, say, a massacre in the alienage by Chevalier trainees that their flock would fail to mention this.   In DA2 there is a wall where people can post prayers for their loved ones (Sebastian does this for Hawke's mother).   So if there was a sharp increase in the number of prayers required for individuals in a certain part of town, I think it would be pretty clear something was going on.    Since there is always the possibility of magical abuses taking place, the clergy might at least refer the matter to the Templars and ask them to look into it.   If the Templars came back with a negative on magic, then my reaction would be to ask what was the cause? 

 

Since the Chantry is a political body, they do have power.   Admittedly it does depend to some extent on how seriously the nobility regard their religion.   There does not seem to be the equivalent of excommunication in the Chantry.  Also, given how their prophet was used shamelessly in a parody on Celene, it would seem most people only pay lip service to their faith.     There seems to have been no instance of a king, emperor or empress, or Chevaliers, being required to do public penance for committing an atrocity.    I think the nearest we have been told of a religious person exercising the faith of the people to exact change was when Sebastian's ancestors called for a public fast on the steps of the Chantry until the corrupt leader of Starkhaven agreed to relinquish power.   So if they could do it and weren't even leading figures in the Chantry, think what a Divine or Grand Cleric ought to be able to do if they really had the will to do so.     They are quick enough to call for Exalted Marches against alleged heretics, why not an Exalted March against corrupt rulers?   Trouble is they need the corrupt rulers as much as they do the Templars.   So currently of course they have very little power at all, certainly in Orlais.

 

It would be nice if you could say just once that may be the reason the Maker doesn't return is because they may sing the chant, but no one actually follows it.   When all people are treated equally under the law, then may be the Maker will return.

[MisterJB]

hey are quick enough to call for Exalted Marches against alleged heretics, why not an Exalted March against corrupt rulers?

Because then you'd have to do an Exalted March on everyone in the world.

The very people you'll assign to be generals of your armies will be corrupt; then, they'd have to do an Exalted March on themselves.

[TheWhitefire]

Also, they're not all that quick to call an exalted march. There's only been like... two? Maybe three? Exalted Marches in all of history (That against the Tevinters, and the March on the Dales). They were contemplating calling for military action in Kirkwall to prevent the tensions between mage and templar from spreading, as both sides were acting well outside the bounds of their stations. But, in the end, they never did call for one. They should have, but they didn't.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Also, they're not all that quick to call an exalted march. There's only been like... two? Maybe three? Exalted Marches in all of history (That against the Tevinters, and the March on the Dales). They were contemplating calling for military action in Kirkwall to prevent the tensions between mage and templar from spreading, as both sides were acting well outside the bounds of their stations. But, in the end, they never did call for one. They should have, but they didn't.

7 actually, but 4 were during the Qunari invasion if I recall correctly. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Unintended, but still delicious irony. Being able to give the Chantry a sizable and well-deserved potshot would be icing on the cake for me.

 

Just about every problem concerning the mage-templar conflict and elven oppression since the Fall of the Dales can be somehow indirectly or directly traced back to Chantry policy and actions.

Let me stop you right there to clarify two things:

 

1) The Dalish started the war, and the Chantry aided Orlais in pushing back the Dalish invasion. 

2) The Chantry is more accepting of elves than the nations are, allowing them to become Sisters and even Templars. 

[Mr.House]

Unintended, but still delicious irony. Being able to give the Chantry a sizable and well-deserved potshot would be icing on the cake for me.

 

Just about every problem concerning the mage-templar conflict and elven oppression since the Fall of the Dales can be somehow indirectly or directly traced back to Chantry policy and actions.

Yes it's clearly one sides fault, the elves are mages are not to blame at all!

 

*sigh*

[Brian ofthe Dialogue Wheel]

Let me stop you right there to clarify two things:

 

1) The Dalish started the war, and the Chantry aided Orlais in pushing back the Dalish invasion. 

2) The Chantry is more accepting of elves than the nations are, allowing them to become Sisters and even Templars. 

Well, considering that the histories we have that are written down were written by the victors, I find that doubtful. Likely, the chantry was trying to convert the Dalish people, the Dalish fought back, then both sides escalated the combat. The Chantry allows Elves to serve if they forgo their elven culture.

[Brian ofthe Dialogue Wheel]

Yes it's clearly one sides fault, the elves are mages are not to blame at all!

 

*sigh*

True, but the Chantry is neither right or blameless in these matters.

[Mr.House]

True, but the Chantry is neither right or blameless in these matters.

I never said they where, but blaming the Chantry only IS naive.