116 réponses à ce sujet

[Bob from Accounting]

Ah! Here we go.

 

"A Framework for Rendering Complex Scattering Effects on Hair", Yang, Et al.

 

The technique TressFX is apparently based on.

[Dutchess]

I'd really like more hairstyles with long hair. I know loose hair is unlikely to happen, but ponytails, braids and buns at least hint at long hair and won't cause that much clipping. Plenty of great hairs in mods that did not clip much.

 

 

Then again, I find the clipping argument not that convincing, as nearly every dwarven beard went through their chest when they moved their head and apparently Bioware thought awesome beards were worth the clipping. I say awesome hair is worth it as well. I don't have much hope, though. The hair in the screenshots we've seen doesn't look good at all and has hardly improved over three games. The textures look odd, too matte or too shiny and it needs more volume, like in the screenshot.

 

As for personal experience, I have long, straight hair (nearly to my middle) and it's very thick as well, but I don't find maintenance much of a problem. I brush it every morning, which takes two minutes at most, and then it depends on what I want to do with it.

[DooomCookie]

They can do it.  They may well have it.  It will look bad though.  It will likely be an option for PCs, but major NPCs won't have it because it looks unrealistic and is prone to clipping.

 

There are frankly a million things that I think the game would benefit more from than long hair.  In addition to this, long hair is a CPU hog, as many people have pointed out.

[Naktis]

After terrible Sera reveal , I must say , Bioware needs a lot work to do with they're hair modeling , the bad part is also frostbite engine , that means problems with mods.

 

As for females so far I can say DA2 had better hair models them DA:I  which is sad...

 

I rly hope there will mods for cassandra hair like from artwork in dawn of seeker , and Sera hair change to twin tails like harlequin. As for Sera her whole body structure reminds me of...Wynne..

[Dutchess]

 

 As for Sera her whole body structure reminds me of...Wynne..

 

Now that you mention it...

 

 

 

I think it's the boob cups.

[ladyoflate]

Bioware's been sort of weird with breast positioning in general lately tho. Like, the have perky boobs that are rooted halfway down the torso and it's just really, really strange to me.

[cindercatz]

 In addition to this, long hair is a CPU hog, as many people have pointed out.

I've seen this mentioned a few times now... My experience tells me that individually animating hair directly, like they used to way back, is an absolute BEAST. But nowdays it's more about finding the right physics and applying that, so resource wise, I think of it more like a particle effect, more involved than most, but basically. And with all the particle mapping going on at any given time on the new consoles and high end PCs, all the environment morphing and everything, I'm not sure just how much more hair takes to process. Dragon's Dogma's (really great) hair doesn't seem to cause any real noticeable issues.

 

I've seen it mentioned that TressFX drags down the framerate of Tomb Raider some, but is that really an issue? Classic animation, 2D, was 24 fps, and it looks perfectly smooth, because the mind naturally fills the gaps. I've animated with filler cells to half that and occassionally 3:1, still smooth. I think with TR, the effect mentioned was to bring down the fps from a few hundred to a few less hundred fps, then I guess combined with all the ambient effects, it adds up. But if the end result, with appropriate scaling, is still ~30 fps, would that really matter? Keeping in mind this isn't a twitch game franchise, I mean?

 

As long as it doesn't visibly drag in the end, doesn't appear choppy, I'm not really mussed about peak framerate. I know it'd be more of an issue on PC with no uniform environment, but that's always true. I'm just wondering what people think about it. I'd be happy to eat some performance for long hair up to a point, as long as i could stay under that minimum visible lag buffer.

[Giant ambush beetle]

I don't really have an opinion on the hair I just never have a chance to use this gif

 

Wouldn't that be awesome in combat? I approve of long hair in DAI; my enemies having long hair. 

[cindercatz]

Wouldn't that be awesome in combat? I approve of long hair in DAI; my enemies having long hair. 

That's a pure sucker punch. She could've just as easily thrown her down by the head or torso. She just wanted to hide her guilt to avoid the foul. That was all over the news for a day. Girl should've gotten up and clocked her.

[Giant ambush beetle]

Ever been pulled on your hair? It HURTS like a mofo. Pulling hard on your hair hurts so much that you let yourself fall to the ground instinctively because resisting hurts even more-  It takes much less force from the attacker to put you down that way. 

 

There is a reason why people in trial by combats - other than knights in full armor- were sewn in a skintight oiled leather suits that completely covered the body but the face. 

 

[frednought]

Just wanted to chime in and say that DA:O-style braid clipping is fairly easy to avoid, actually.  DA:O's hair was only weighted to the character's head, so it clipped like hell whenever the player's head moved instead of staying rooted to the character's shoulders.  DA2 and Skyrim, for example, avoided this by weighting the lower parts of the hair to the shoulders.  No physics involved, just better skinning.

 

The clipping Bioware is referring to with DA:I, I think, is that long hair will clip through the different armors (and the weapons on your back) regardless of animation, since the Inquisition is apparently really big on fancy collars and such.  To avoid THAT you'd have to either give everyone really boring flat clothes, or implement some sort of physics.

[cindercatz]

Ever been pulled on your hair? It HURTS like a mofo. Pulling hard on your hair hurts so much that you let yourself fall to the ground instinctively because resisting hurts even more-  It takes much less force from the attacker to put you down that way. 

 

There is a reason why people in trial by combats - other than knights in full armor- were sewn in a skintight oiled leather suits that completely covered the body but the face. 

 

I have, actually. I've been in more than a few fights, with long hair for like half of them (because I routinely grow and cut). When you're engaged in the fight, you're prepared for someone trying to pull hair. Like I said in the other thread, if someone wants to waste their time, all they're doing is exposing their wrist (and throat, etc.). I want to get you close and control your joints, ideally. Try to pull some hair and you're at a disadvantage. If someone's unprepared, there are a lot of ways to easily drop them, or throw someone to the ground.

 

edit: On the second point, there are a lot of warrior cultures that venerated or required long hair. If it were such a disadvantage in real combat, that wouldn't be the case. In a wrestling match where there are rules and restrictions, I'd agree with you. It's not my experience in a real fight, though.

 

edit 2: Chainmail coifs or oiled leather underarmor were much more about protecting your vitals (including the neck and head, but also arterial weak points like the interior bend of the elbows and knees, the underarm, etc.) against weapons than they were about covering your hair.

[themikefest]

 

As someone else who also has long hair, if I were to join the military the very first thing I would do is chop it all off. There is no way in hell I would bother dealing with washing it, pulling it back, using product to manage flyaways, and all of that garbage when my male counterparts just do swish-swish with a tiny amount of shampoo and are done. I've had short hair periods in my life as well. It is considerably easier to live with. And yes, I do know that there are active servicewomen who do have long hair. If they can live with it good for them, it just wouldn't be my choice. But do notice that there are military regulations regarding the length and style of hair. You won't see any of those women going into combat with the hair featured in some of the DAO mods.

 

 

When I was in the military I saw women with long hair that had no problem keeping it within standards. As long as it does not touch the collar, the ears and no strands of hair that are loose, it was ok.

[dutch_gamer]

Just wanted to chime in and say that DA:O-style braid clipping is fairly easy to avoid, actually.  DA:O's hair was only weighted to the character's head, so it clipped like hell whenever the player's head moved instead of staying rooted to the character's shoulders.  DA2 and Skyrim, for example, avoided this by weighting the lower parts of the hair to the shoulders.  No physics involved, just better skinning.

 

The clipping Bioware is referring to with DA:I, I think, is that long hair will clip through the different armors (and the weapons on your back) regardless of animation, since the Inquisition is apparently really big on fancy collars and such.  To avoid THAT you'd have to either give everyone really boring flat clothes, or implement some sort of physics.

Exactly. This happens in a lot of games but Bioware is the only games company I know who seemingly refuses to use a simple method to give us longer hair. I couldn't care less about hair physics. And with other companies giving us longer hair, even without physics, I see no real reason why Bioware is avoiding long hair entirely. If it is because of clipping their games already have enough clipping in other parts. Heck, dwarf beards clip too but yet long hair is a no-no.

 

I believe that if clipping is an issue for players, they can always choose short hair while the developers could still give better hair options for players who don't care about hair clipping through whatever.

 

Character modeling in general seems to be Bioware's nemesis. They have had issues with creating normal looking hands and even faces can look rather bad at times, almost comically.

[Tootles FTW]

I'm fine with up-dos that hint at longer hair, versus actual long hair, just please no repeats of the hideous hair mounds in Mass Effect 3.
 

[JakeLeTDK]

I think its not that big about clipping but more about hair movement. I'm not a designer or anything, but I bet coding for that would be hell to developers, and in a way, it's way too much work while achieve little. Since they have a lot to work on, I don't think this is very high on their list.

 

The best we might have, imo, is an illusion of long hair, something along the line of female characters have long hair but tie up neatly, similar to Princess Leia's style or so. 

[Giant ambush beetle]

I have, actually. I've been in more than a few fights, with long hair for like half of them (because I routinely grow and cut). When you're engaged in the fight, you're prepared for someone trying to pull hair.
If someone's unprepared, there are a lot of ways to easily drop them, or throw someone to the ground.

One more weakness to be aware of.

edit: On the second point, there are a lot of warrior cultures that venerated or required long hair. If it were such a disadvantage in real combat, that wouldn't be the case.

Until World War 1/2 soldiers were dressed in bright flashy colors making them easy to spot and shoot them on the battlefield. Traditions often make no sense and put you in a disadvantage.

edit 2: Chainmail coifs or oiled leather underarmor were much more about protecting your vitals (including the neck and head, but also arterial weak points like the interior bend of the elbows and knees, the underarm, etc.) against weapons than they were about covering your hair.

Those oiled hooded skintigh leather garments were worn not protect but to make it impossible for the opponent to grab and get a grip on you. Otherwise a physically stronger opponent would have wrestled down and killed the weaker opponent rather easily. Remember, in trial by combat it was not uncommon that women fought men. (Their husband) The thin leather did nothing to stop blades nor blunt weapons.

[cindercatz]

One more weakness to be aware of.

Until World War 1/2 soldiers were dressed in bright flashy colors making them easy to spot and shoot them on the battlefield. Traditions often make no sense and put you in a disadvantage.

Those oiled hooded skintigh leather garments were worn not protect but to make it impossible for the opponent to grab and get a grip on you. Otherwise a physically stronger opponent would have wrestled down and killed the weaker opponent rather easily. Remember, in trial by combat it was not uncommon that women fought men. (Their husband) The thin leather did nothing to stop blades nor blunt weapons.

It's not really a weakness if attempting to exploit it results in a painful disadvantage, though. Even in things like MMA, where there are a *few* rules, you won't have trouble finding very successful fighters with long hair.

 

The bright flashy colors as arrow/musket-bait were an etiquette of war thing really, like the British marching in line during the American Revolutionary War, or identifying banners that were already in use but would phase out as technology proved them militarily detrimental as gun and bow tech improved, right along with medieval armor btw. The other cultures, consider, built empires and the like in close quarters combat against other cultures, of similar technological level, that could care less about respecting their military codes of conduct. Yet their hair didn't result in high losses or defeat, such that their traditions would develope differently. That's the kind of combat that applies to DA for the most part. It did become less visible as armor became more protective. I never said I was against full suits of armor covering the head and neck if it fits. But long hair isn't the issue there.

 

That does make sense in the circumstances, but again, those are ritual duels in very specific circumstances, and the goal is to protect the entire body, not so much to compensate for hair. The leather (and the oil) is still protective against weapons as well, to a certain degree; not even chainmail would protect particularly well against a direct stab or heavy blunt weapon strikes, but less friction and less direct skin contact both mean less damage in a typical cut & pull euro sword fight. It's not really representative of battlefield conditions or any given street fight, etc. Most ritual duels were not to the death, if we're talking about the same thing here.

[Han Yolo]

Why would it even matter if long hair is realistic? There's already a toggle to switch the helmet off, isn't there?

[AkiKishi]

Really more about putting a lot of lead in the air and not being shredded by your own artilery when the smoke started to get thick. 

 

Falls out of favour when rifling becomes common and smokeless powder is invented. Colonial powers keep the uniforms longer because they just don't fight anything that could be considered equal for quite some time.

 

The hairstyles are purely practical for technical reasons like clipping. I don't expect they will change because they have never been that good.

[archav3n]

IT would be nice to have TresFX like the one we have in Tomb Raider 2013? That would be nice.

 

Edit

Wow are those modded characters? They look really awesome.

[AkiKishi]

IT would be nice to have TresFX like the one we have in Tomb Raider 2013? That would be nice.

 

Edit

Wow are those modded characters? They look really awesome.

 

Maybe in a purely next gen game. But not going to happen in a cross gen game. 

 

If you look at Tomb Raider only Lara really stands out or is on screen most of the time. In cutscenes its much easier to manage than in open play.

[archav3n]

Maybe in a purely next gen game. But not going to happen in a cross gen game. 

 

If you look at Tomb Raider only Lara really stands out or is on screen most of the time. In cutscenes its much easier to manage than in open play.

 

Yeap only Lara stands out. The other characters who has plain static hair looks really out of place. It's the most noticeable in ME3 as well. Only Shepard and companions looks great. Other NPCs looks really bland. It would be great other characters appearances wont be that far off as it's immersion breaking. Anyway, in Witcher 2, you can see Geralt's pony tail movement. It's not using any technology. It would be great that hair wont be static anymore?

 

Also, sorry to hijack this thread. I'm more interested in lip-synching and teeth honestly. I find Psycho's teeth (Crysis 3) looks quite realistic. Claire (Crysis 3) on the other hand don't look bad either. It's 2014 and DAI using FB3 engine, i hope we won't have bad animations anymore

[aphelion4]

I've made hair for Sims 3 and got it "assigned" to the sim's back so it wouldn't clip with the body and most clothes and I realize that DA:I is a whole other beast but...I don't really buy this whole "OH IT'S TO DO WITH CLIPPING AND ANIMATIONS" when really, I can put my Sim or my dovahkiin in a bajillion different outfits and rarely have clipping even with hair going to the middle of the back. Yes it will require a bit more effort but there's no reason it'd have to be fully animated. I'd settle for a "glued" effect like in Skyrim, Fallout or Sims 3 if it meant I could have long hair. :/

 

Assuming of course DA:I is anything like those games where you do need to assign clothing/hair/shoes to joints/bones for proper animation (I assume it is, though I'm still a noob when it comes to meshing).

 

Edit: I would like people to look at these two fabulous hair creators for Sims 3

 

Nightcrawler and Cazy. Their hairs are very smoothly assigned to the proper joints so there is no weird contortion (AND THEY MOVE WITH THE BREAST SLIDERS AW YIS) and generally for the long hairs they won't clip with clothing unless the clothes protrude far out from the back.

 

PLEASE BIOWARE MAKE IT HAPPEN I WANT TO LOOK FABULOUS

[TKavatar]

DA2's hair did have physics, lets not forget that. It was quite limited but at least we had it instead of static hair.