582 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

People react badly when Bio puts characterization into the PC. You haven't noticed?

People react badly when Bio puts their own characterization into our PC.

[dreamgazer]

People react badly when Bio puts their own characterization into our PC.

 

What would non-BioWare characterization be? 

[Iakus]

What would non-BioWare characterization be? 

Something the player gets to choose.

 

Good:  Player deciding Shepard is stoic and not overly concerned about the concept of being dead for two years

 

Bad:  Bioware assuming Shepard will be stoic and not overly concerned about the conept of being dead for two years.

[The Heretic of Time]

they tried to. in some cases they did well....but in others they fell for the trap of "everything must lead to X" so the branching paths had no differences. It is not a bad reason, it is the same as me as a Storyteller for my WoD group not imposing character reactions on my players....of course, that translates differently on a videogame

You can't compare a PnP RPG to a digital RPG. In Vampire The Requiem / Werewolf The Forsaken (or whichever WoD campaign you play), your character is truly your own and you have the freedom to play and express your character the way you want, and a good storyteller will react to that. A videogame is obviously limited in the amount of freedom and interaction it can offer. Which gives devs two options: a blank slate character which the player can fill in with their own headcanon (works better for a non-voiced PC, but I really don't like non-voiced blank slate characters myself, it makes me feel disconnected from the game world I'm playing in), or a fleshed out character (like Geralt in The Witcher series or Adam Jensen in Deus Ex, which is what I personally prefer). With Shepard I feel BioWare didn't know what they want. They went somewhere in the middle between blank slate and fleshed out, which ultimately made Shepard feel like a shallow doofus that never felt like he was really my character nor was he ever an interesting character.

[dreamgazer]

Something the player gets to choose.

 

Good:  Player deciding Shepard is stoic and not overly concerned about the concept of being dead for two years

 

Bad:  Bioware assuming Shepard will be stoic and not overly concerned about the conept of being dead for two years.

 

You are given a small choice in that regard, when you deal with your mortal status upon reentering the Citadel. 

 

But yeah, they dropped the ball with Lazarus big time.  At least they (optionally) touched on that a bit near the end of ME3.

[crimzontearz]

You can't compare a PnP RPG to a digital RPG. In Vampire The Requiem / Werewolf The Forsaken (or whichever WoD campaign you play), your character is truly your own and you have the freedom to play and express your character the way you want, and a good storyteller will react to that. A videogame is obviously limited in the amount of freedom and interaction it can offer. Which gives devs two options: a blank slate character which the player can fill in with their own headcanon (works better for a non-voiced PC, but I really don't like non-voiced blank slate characters myself, it makes me feel disconnected from the game world I'm playing in), or a fleshed out character (like Geralt in The Witcher series or Adam Jensen in Deus Ex, which is what I personally prefer). With Shepard I feel BioWare didn't know what they want. They went somewhere in the middle between blank slate and fleshed out, which ultimately made Shepard feel like a shallow doofus that never felt like he was really my character nor was he ever an interesting character.

still does not change the likelyhood of my theory. Poor execution or otherwise that is what they were likely going for

[Iakus]

You are given a small choice in that regard, when you deal with your mortal status upon reentering the Citadel. 

 

But yeah, they dropped the ball with Lazarus big time.  At least they (optionally) touched on that a bit near the end of ME3.

 

They don't "touch on it nearly enough"  And that is just one of the more egregious examples. 

 

ME3 really didn't help given how few dialogue options there were in general, and those were almost always restricted to  "emotionally fragile" and "p*ssed off" personalities.  Very binary.

[von uber]

What those statistics don't show you is that the vast majority of female "gamers" are the smartphone generation and the Facebook moms, you know, the women who casually play a little game on their smartphone or on Facebook once in a while. Those women are also accounted for in that 48%. When we talk about "real" gamers (people who play "serious" or "hardcore" games, like most games in the RPG genre) the women are still in the vast minority.

Oh I see. Only 'real' gamers count eh, based on your own criteria
And I'd like to see some evidence of this supposed vast minority - or are you just supposing?
And more to the point, why not encourage more women to become 'real' gamers? Makes perfect sense business wise. Might even lead to a hell of a lot more interesting games too.

[The Heretic of Time]

Oh I see. Only 'real' gamers count eh, based on your own criteria
And I'd like to see some evidence of this supposed vast minority - or are you just supposing?
And more to the point, why not encourage more women to become 'real' gamers? Makes perfect sense business wise. Might even lead to a hell of a lot more interesting games too.

I'm all for encouraging women to play some good triple A quality videogames, but sadly enough most of them simply aren't interested in that.

 

And no, I'm not supposing. If we look at the numbers more closely we can see that over 60% of all female "gamers" only play mobile games on their smartphones or handhelds. That means only 40% of all female gamers play "real" games on the consoles or on the PC.  40% of 47% is 18,8%. So in reality, Women make up only 18,8% of the gamer population if we exclude mobile games and only look at console and PC games. 18,8% is indeed a vast minority.

 

This reality is reflected in the amount of people who played female Shepard in ME3. I believe that number was also somewhere around 18%, but I don't remember the stats exactly so it might be a few percentages more or less. Ultimately not a lot of people seem to be interested in playing as a female protagonist, which means spending a lot of resources on developing and marketing a female protagonist is mostly a waste of money.

[spirosz]

I tend to take those "statistics" with a grain of salt. 

[dreamgazer]

I really don't think one out of every five Shepards being female would be considered a noteworthy waste of resources, given DefaultShep and the natural inclination for gamers to (vicariously) go with male PCs.

[von uber]

The femshep statistic has always struck me as odd, given the amount of fanart, fan fiction and the number of posters on here who seem to play as a femshep.
I mean that statistic certainly doesn't include me; nor anyone else after whatever arbitrary date they chose to record it on.

Regardless the original point was about marketing, and if you exclusively market shep as a guy then subconsciously you will have that in your head (especially as a new arrival to the game not having played me1/2).

I note the latest DA:I trailer was the female version interestingly enough.

[Br3admax]

The femshep statistic has always struck me as odd, given the amount of fanart, fan fiction and the number of posters on here who seem to play as a femshep.
I mean that statistic certainly doesn't include me; nor anyone else after whatever arbitrary date they chose to record it on.

Regardless the original point was about marketing, and if you exclusively market shep as a guy then subconsciously you will have that in your head (especially as a new arrival to the game not having played me1/2).

I note the latest DA:I trailer was the female version interestingly enough.

Most customers don't even beat the game, let alone make fanfiction and fanart about it. 

 

As to the marketing, subconsciously, marketing has to do with sales, so they'll go with what's most profitable. It's not about what character you make, because they could careless after you've already bought the game.

 

FemShep had a trailer too. What was the point to this statement? 

[Seboist]

The femshep statistic has always struck me as odd, given the amount of fanart, fan fiction and the number of posters on here who seem to play as a femshep.
I mean that statistic certainly doesn't include me; nor anyone else after whatever arbitrary date they chose to record it on.

Regardless the original point was about marketing, and if you exclusively market shep as a guy then subconsciously you will have that in your head (especially as a new arrival to the game not having played me1/2).

I note the latest DA:I trailer was the female version interestingly enough.

 

There's nothing odd about the statistic when taking into account a vocal minority of entitled aggitators that are a minority of a minority of a fanbase.

[von uber]

FemShep had a trailer too. What was the point to this statement?

One trailer tacked on right at the end (plus the beauty contest of course).
DA:I might be more even in it's marketing given that they are showing both genders early.
That was the point of the statement.

Always amazes me how aggressive people are over this issue, it's a phenomenon you see all over message boards when this topic is raised. Look at the recent assassin's creed debacle as an example.

All that's being said is that maybe 50% of the population should be better represented.

And right on cue:

There's nothing odd about the statistic when taking into account a vocal minority of entitled aggitators that are a minority of a minority of a fanbase.

[Seboist]

One trailer tacked on right at the end (plus the beauty contest of course).
DA:I might be more even in it's marketing given that they are showing both genders early.
That was the point of the statement.

Always amazes me how aggressive people are over this issue, it's a phenomenon you see all over message boards when this topic is raised. Look at the recent assassin's creed debacle as an example.

All that's being said is that maybe 50% of the population should be better represented.

And right on cue:
 

 

People are fed up over this entitled whining that has no grounds in reality. Majority of consumers are male and prefer to play as male and top it off, they're also boosted by female gamers who prefer to play as male characters(like my ex gf).

 

Deal with it.

[von uber]

Entitled whining? How exactly is it 1) entitled and 2) whining?
What exactly bothers you about a more equal female representation?

Edit: doesn't the fact that IF there is a lack of women who play games that nothing is being done to change this (and we end up with the same protagonists and the same dubious representation of women in games) bother you?
Or are you happy in your entitlement?

[Seboist]

Entitled whining? How exactly is it 1) entitled and 2) whining?
What exactly bothers you about a more equal female representation?

Edit: doesn't the fact that IF there is a lack of women who play games that nothing is being done to change this (and we end up with the same protagonists and the same dubious representation of women in games) bother you?
Or are you happy in your entitlement?

 

It's entitled and whining because you expect a luxury item based on the economics of supply and demand to cater to a small vocal minority as much as the majority and I prefer quality over equality.

 

I have zero concern over whether or not women want to play games, they're their own autonomous human beings and if they want to play, fine and if they don't? That's fine as well. I'm primarily concerned with whether a game is fun or not, not what player avatar I play as a in a medium whose writing is on the level of the Star Wars prequels or pulp hong martial acts flicks, at best.

[The Heretic of Time]

Entitled whining? How exactly is it 1) entitled and 2) whining?
What exactly bothers you about a more equal female representation?

Edit: doesn't the fact that IF there is a lack of women who play games that nothing is being done to change this (and we end up with the same protagonists and the same dubious representation of women in games) bother you?
Or are you happy in your entitlement?

I can't speak for Seb but personally I have no issues with a more equal representation of women in videogames. My issue is with the entitled social justice crusaders who lose their sh*t when Ubisoft decides to release an Assassin's Creed game with 4 male protagonists, to just give an example. Then when Ubisoft clarifies that creating a female protagonist next to the male protagonist would take up a lot of extra time an resources, these entitled people don't just accept Ubi's explanation, instead they go on a virtual rant on how Ubisoft is just making up poor excuses to be misogynistic. Look, I'm a game dev myself. I worked on indie games and I currently am getting my Masters degree in 3D visual art which will hopefully land me a job as a 3D artist and animator in a bigger game studio. I can tell from experience that Ubisoft is right. Rigging, skinning and animating is a b*tch to do and it takes up a lot of time. If they would add a female protagonist to the mix they would have to make a separate rig, skin and tweak the animations to fit the female model. That's not an easy task. Especially not for a videogame such as Asassin's Creed with such a large amount of animations and parkour moves.

 

So I advice these entitled whiners to do their research before they're gonna throw around accusations and scream that the videogame industry and videogame companies are misogynistic. It's that kind of attitude that makes me just want to flip these people the bird and not bother with female representation in games at all.

 

Edit: Could Ubisoft have made a female protagonist in Assassin's Creed Unity? Sure they COULD have. But it would cost them a lot of resources. They decided they didn't want to spend their resources on creating a female protagonist. They have the freedom to make that choice. It's their game and we are just to accept and respect that without losing our pants and screaming MISOGYNY and PATRIARCHY like a bunch of idiots.

[von uber]

Unless they just chose to make it a female from the off of course.

[The Heretic of Time]

Unless they just chose to make it a female from the off of course.

No. Having both male and female protagonists is always gonna cost extra resources. Unless they'd make an all female squad of assassins with no male assasin protagonists, but that's obviously not gonna happen (though I wouldn't mind playing as a team of ass kicking ladies personally).

[von uber]

That's my point, why not make them (and the main protagonist) female.
Not both.

[The Heretic of Time]

That's my point, why not make them (and the main protagonist) female.
Not both.

Cause the majority of gamers are male and/or want to play male protagonists.

[von uber]

Cause the majority of gamers are male and/or want to play male protagonists.

And back we go again. Where is the proof of (especially the second) statement?
Further more surely the success of such things as tomb raider and mirrors edge belie this?
It's interesting to read on this forum alone the amount od women who say they bought the game because you can play as a female.

[The Heretic of Time]

And back we go again. Where is the proof of (especially the second) statement?
Further more surely the success of such things as tomb raider and mirrors edge belie this?
It's interesting to read on this forum alone the amount od women who say they bought the game because you can play as a female.

 

The fact that only 18% of all Mass Effect players played as femShep is proof. I already said that.

 

Tomb Raider and Mirrors Edge are successful despite the fact that the have female protagonists. Sure, Lara Croft has become a big icon in the video game industry, and it's good to have a female icon as well. Just because most gamers are men and prefer to play as male protagonists doesn't mean we don't like to play as a female protagonist once in a while. Sushi is my favorite food, but that doesn't mean I eat sushi all day every day. I like to have some spaghetti once in a while too you know.