582 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

The fact that only 18% of all Mass Effect players played as femShep is proof. I already said that.

 

Tomb Raider and Mirrors Edge are successful despite the fact that the have female protagonists. Sure, Lara Croft has become a big icon in the video game industry, and it's good to have a female icon as well. Just because most gamers are men and prefer to play as male protagonists doesn't mean we don't like to play as a female protagonist once in a while. Sushi is my favorite food, but that doesn't mean I eat sushi all day every day. I like to have some spaghetti once in a while too you know.

 

And Lara Croft became a big icon because she appealed to the tastes of the male audience.

 

Males = bread and butter of the industry.

[von uber]

The statistics of one game taken ata specific point with one sided marketing is not really proof is it.
Are you suggesting tomb raider would have been a bigger success if it was another white square jawed shaven headed male protagonist?

[The Heretic of Time]

The statistics of one game taken ata specific point with one sided marketing is not really proof is it.
Are you suggesting tomb raider would have been a bigger success if it was another white square jawed shaven headed male protagonist?

It's more proof than you have.

And yes:

[von uber]

I disagree. And the vision you portray of the future of gaming is exceptionally depressing.
I guess we'll see how things pan out.

Sorry short replies because it's Italy 2:1 England.

[JamieCOTC]

I think they said it would not be a sequel. In fact I suspect ME4 will be to the Shepard trilogy what Star Wars: Unleashed was to KOTOR. it will be set in the same universe and we'll see some of the same types of aliens and a few familiar factions, but that's about it.

[The Heretic of Time]

I disagree. And the vision you portray of the future of gaming is exceptionally depressing.
I guess we'll see how things pan out.

Sorry short replies because it's Italy 2:1 England.

I said nothing about the future of gaming and I don't see how the future of gaming is depressing anyway. It just is how it is. Most women just aren't interested in videogames. Those who are either play mobile games, adventure games, puzzle games or MMORPGs. The single player RPG genre is not that popular among the female gamers, or so the statistics say.

[zestalyn]

 

And no, I'm not supposing. If we look at the numbers more closely we can see that over 60% of all female "gamers" only play mobile games on their smartphones or handhelds. That means only 40% of all female gamers play "real" games on the consoles or on the PC.  40% of 47% is 18,8%. So in reality, Women make up only 18,8% of the gamer population if we exclude mobile games and only look at console and PC games. 18,8% is indeed a vast minority.

Where is this statistic about the 60%+ from? 

My 2 cents on this topic:

I deeply wish more dev companies would take inclusivity into consideration. 

The female gamer population is a fast growing population, but it was never super big in the first place since dev teams are mostly made up of males and only care to cater to male interests (for instance, gameplay is a gender-neutral experience, but when you have a mostly male dev teams, the presentational experience tends to get gender-linked, where over-sexualized and stereotypical presentations of female characters, as well as gender tropes in video game storylines [i.e. damsel in distress/woman in refrigerator] are unappealing to women). 

With a male-dominated industry, it is very hard for female game developers to get a foothold or equal pay, since sexual harassment and bias is a commonly reported thing in the industry. Hence you have a vicious cycle where alot of dev teams don't know how to keep female gamers in consideration and lull themselves to complacency. There have also been many reports of a trend in sexist and misogynistic attitudes among professional and hardcore gamers that further makes the culture generally unwelcoming to women. 

This is a classic case of when men don't care to be part of the "solution", which by default, makes them add to the "problem". 

Since I don't have alot of free time, I'm very picky with my video games and I've chosen to only play games that are either RPG or have a playable female character. Video games strictly featuring male protagonists have become too normative, too predictable to me, while inclusive companies like Bioware have the competitive edge with me. This edge gives companies like Bioware (given they provide quality gameplay of course) easy access to my wallet, and I'm sure for many other gamers who don't fit the hetero-male norm. I wish more dev companies could learn a thing or two from BW in this aspect. 

Case example: I was looking at all of the new footage from E3 2014 and the Witcher 3 looks amazing. But so does DA:I. Well, I've only got the cash and room for one more fantasy RPG game. Of course I will go with DA:I, cause I am much more thrilled with the idea of playing Miss Inquisitor rather than Mr. Geralt. 

[shepskisaac]

And Lara Croft became a big icon because she appealed to the tastes of the male audience.

 

Males = bread and butter of the industry.

But the new reboot Lara ain't a DD-cup sex symbol 90s Lara was, yet the last Tomb Raider will soon become the best selling game in the franchise

[crimzontearz]

But the new reboot Lara ain't a DD-cup sex symbol 90s Lara was, yet the last Tomb Raider will soon become the best selling game in the franchise

some people would argue because of the whole gorn thing....bunch of sickos.

[Eshaye]

I said nothing about the future of gaming and I don't see how the future of gaming is depressing anyway. It just is how it is. Most women just aren't interested in videogames. Those who are either play mobile games, adventure games, puzzle games or MMORPGs. The single player RPG genre is not that popular among the female gamers, or so the statistics say.

 

 

Hmmmmm no and no and again no. 

 

Most grown women have not been presented games growing up as a legitimate way to spend their free time in the same way that grown men have. This is why our demographic is so unbalanced. But I am telling you as a woman who has fought the stereotype a long, long, long time, that is changing. 

 

The more mainstream and accessible gaming becomes the wider the audience. Women and people from more countries then ever are playing the same games you are and sooner or later, and probably much sooner then many of you expect apparently, you will have to wake and realise we'd like a piece of the cake too and not just the crumbs on that plate. 

 

The statistics have been changing quite a lot as well and if you seriously thinking all these women making most of that 48% are the great majority just playing candy crush, you are not paying any attention. These forums alone should be a wake up call.

 

I was recently at the Calgary Con a month or so ago and I've seen ladies outweighing the guys with their Shepard cosplay and N7 gear. Like BY FAR. 

 

Pretty sure these women weren't just humoring their boyfriends....... Let's not discount how devoted our numbers are though we are still not as many in numbers as our male counterparts either. 

 

Do count on that not being true in the next 15 years or so however. If my daughter and her friends are any indication, the gaming industry better get it's gender neutrality in order by the time these girls get jobs. 

[SwobyJ]

The tone of the video is dark and defeated

 

Well, I'll agree with this part

[Farangbaa]

Really, people. Look at the studies. See how they fail to define what exactly a gamer is.

 

For all we know, they listed my mom as a gamer. My mom, who likes to play Mahjong every evening. I'm sure we can all agree my mom is never going to be interested in Mass Effect. Or they listed your sister who likes to play a game Wordfeud every day on her phone.. to which the same applies.

 

You can't use these 'x% of gamers are female, so Femshep is underrepresented' arguments, they are ridiculous.

[von uber]

Why wouldn't your mum be interested in mass effect?

Personal anecdote time! My girlfriend hates computer games. Can't see the point in them, has no interest whatsoever.

Apart from playing candy crush and other games like that.

Which has progressed in to apart from 'gone home'. Oh and limbo which I bought for her laptop.

And now we are off this afternoon to get some games for the new Nintendo dsi I got her for her birthday.

To say 'she plays x therefore will never play y' is ridiculous.

Would you say the same about a guy? He only plays gruff man shooter #7 therefore would never play zelda or skyrim.

[Farangbaa]

Why wouldn't your mum be interested in mass effect?

Personal anecdote time! My girlfriend hates computer games. Can't see the point in them, has no interest whatsoever.

Apart from playing candy crush and other games like that.

Which has progressed in to apart from 'gone home'. Oh and limbo which I bought for her laptop.

And now we are off this afternoon to get some games for the new Nintendo dsi I got her for her birthday.

To say 'she plays x therefore will never play y' is ridiculous.

Would you say the same about a guy? He only plays gruff man shooter #7 therefore would never play zelda or skyrim.

 

She's allergic to sci-fi. A lot of people are.

 

Besides, both me and my brother litterally have had hundreds of games for her to try for 20 years. We've never even seen her try to touch one, except when cleaning stuff

[The Heretic of Time]

My response written in bold:
 

Where is this statistic about the 60%+ from? 

Some survey done by  the Entertainment Software Association. It should be somewhere on their official website.

 

 

I deeply wish more dev companies would take inclusivity into consideration. 

 

I understand, but you also have to understand that creating videogames is a business, and in a business you'll do what is most profitable to you. Publishers don't care about inclusivity, they care about how they can make the most amount of money with the least amount of resources spend. And so the studios who are property of such publishers (for example the development team of Assassin's Creed) are stuck to that philosophy. That's capitalism for you.

 

The female gamer population is a fast growing population, but it was never super big in the first place since dev teams are mostly made up of males and only care to cater to male interests (for instance, gameplay is a gender-neutral experience, but when you have a mostly male dev teams, the presentational experience tends to get gender-linked, where over-sexualized and stereotypical presentations of female characters, as well as gender tropes in video game storylines [i.e. damsel in distress/woman in refrigerator] are unappealing to women). 

With a male-dominated industry, it is very hard for female game developers to get a foothold or equal pay, since sexual harassment and bias is a commonly reported thing in the industry. Hence you have a vicious cycle where alot of dev teams don't know how to keep female gamers in consideration and lull themselves to complacency. There have also been many reports of a trend in sexist and misogynistic attitudes among professional and hardcore gamers that further makes the culture generally unwelcoming to women. 

You act as if game developers are a bunch of stupid monkeys who only think with their d*cks. Give me a break. I find that highly insulting.
It's not so much about game devs not knowing how to keep female gamers in consideration, trust me, the devs know what they're doing. It's more that they simply don't care because you're not part of their target audience. Female gamers aren't the ones buying Call of Duty, Assasin's Creed or Gears of War. Adolescent men are the ones buying those games. And so the developers of those games will cater to their needs. Why in the world would the cater to the needs of a group that isn't buying your games? You might reason "yeah but these women might buy these games if the devs would cater to their needs" but that would be foolish. Why abandon a solid loyal target audience who you KNOW will buy your games,  just to cater to the needs of a group that isn't buying your product and there is no guarantee they will buy it in the future even if you would cater to their needs?

 

I also think you're greatly exaggerating how bad these supposed sexist tropes in videogames are. Damsel in distress? Women in refrigerators? Really? Are we really going to use that terminology now? I'd advice you to stop watching that Anita Sarkeesian nonsense. She doesn't know what she's talking about.


This is a classic case of when men don't care to be part of the "solution", which by default, makes them add to the "problem". 

That's a load of sh*t. The only problem is a small bunch of whiny entitled women who want to put their stamp on everything and want everyone to cater to them. Asking the videogame industry to cater to your needs is like asking Mattel to change their Barbie product line to cater to the needs of little boys.

Your supposed "problem" would only be a real problem if ALL videogame companies and ALL videogames would ONLY focus on male gamers and ONLY create masculine videogames. That is not the case however. The vast majority of videogames are gender-neutral.


Since I don't have alot of free time, I'm very picky with my video games and I've chosen to only play games that are either RPG or have a playable female character. Video games strictly featuring male protagonists have become too normative, too predictable to me.

You're free to make that choice, but seriously though, that's quite ridiculous. Are you really saying all male protagonists are the same? I think that's kinda sexist. The fact that the gender of the protagonists matters to much to you and that you only want to play female protagonists is pretty damn sexist. I wonder how you would react if a guy would say he only wants to play male protagonists because female protagonists are too predictable. I bed you and many other social justice crusaders would lose it and call this guy a sexist and narrow-minded and what else. But when a woman says something of a similar nature it's okay I guess.

 

While inclusive companies like Bioware have the competitive edge with me. This edge gives companies like Bioware (given they provide quality gameplay of course) easy access to my wallet, and I'm sure for many other gamers who don't fit the hetero-male norm. I wish more dev companies could learn a thing or two from BW in this aspect. 

 

I know plenty of people who don't fit the hetero-male norm who don't make such a big deal out of the gender and sexuality of the protagonists in the games they play. I think they are more mature than people like you are. Seriously, why make such a goddamn issue out of such a non-issue? Why make such a big deal out of your character's gender? Shouldn't personality, characterization and depth be more important aspects than something so trivial as a character's gender or sexuality? A well written character is a well written character, his/her gender does not change that. And whether a character is well written or not is really all I care about, it's what most people care about.

 

Case example: I was looking at all of the new footage from E3 2014 and the Witcher 3 looks amazing. But so does DA:I. Well, I've only got the cash and room for one more fantasy RPG game. Of course I will go with DA:I, cause I am much more thrilled with the idea of playing Miss Inquisitor rather than Mr. Geralt. 

 

The Witcher 3 will be released almost 4 months after Dragon Age Inquisition. Don't tell me you won't be able to save up another 60 bucks in those 4 months time.
And if I would only have money for one, I would go for the game with the richest story and best gameplay. I would go with The Witcher 3, because I am much more thrilled with the idea of playing as an interesting and deeply fleshed out character in a well-written story with deep and rich lore than playing as an empty blank slate Inquisitor (who's gender or race doesn't matter to me because I'm not sexist).

[von uber]

I think you'll find the average age of a gamer is heading into the 30's, not adolescent.
Certainly those with real buying power.

And regards characterisation being more important - agreed. But then you say sex is important because tomb raider would have sold more if it was a male lead. Therefore the sex if the character is an issue by your reckoning.
And if that's the case then having a myopic character design where every lead is a white chisel jawed male is a problem because it is deliberately excluding 50% of the population.
And if it isn't, then there should be no reason not to have a woman lead because it's the writing not gender which is important.
You can't have it both ways.

Edit: to add, the games industry has a problem with its portrayal of women then that's an issue in of itself. Until it gets over it then it'll continue to produced the same puerile stuff that gets served up year after year.

Mass effect is quite an exception (in some aspects) in that. The fact shep doesn't have her cleavage on show as part of her armour design is something (shame about samara, jack and miranda but hey, small steps).

[The Heretic of Time]

I think you'll find the average age of a gamer is heading into the 30's, not adolescent.
Certainly those with real buying power.

 

Fair enough. The point is that these people with buying power buy games such as Call of Duty. And so big publishers will start to push their devs to adapt to a formula similar to Call of Duty in order to sell more games. Of course it's all about knowing your competition, knowing your target audience and finding the right niche. I'm sure if a developer would do something groundbreaking and new that is genuinely exciting, that they would be able to gather a big audience and sell lots of games, but of course straying off the beaten path to try something new always involves a financial risk. So far the only company who seems to be willing to make such risks is Nintendo.

[von uber]

I suspect a lot of the sales for cod etc are for people who are not legally old enough to play them.

[The Heretic of Time]

I suspect a lot of the sales for cod etc are for people who are not legally old enough to play them.

And I know that the sales for CoD etc are from people of the same age as the people who buy Dragon Age etc. The majority of gamers (68%) are 18+ and the majority of those 18+ gamers buy games such as CoD. It's all in the statistics, the same group of statistics you used to point out that 48% of gamers are female.

[fchopin]

This thread is about the game that will not be named Mass Effect 4 so please do nor derail the thread, create a new thread if you like in off topic.

I would like the game to be in a similar universe with different species of aliens and a different story so Bioware can create whatever they like without hindrance.

[The Heretic of Time]

Response in bold:

 

Hmmmmm no and no and again no. 

You mean; yes, yes and yes.

 

Most grown women have not been presented games growing up as a legitimate way to spend their free time in the same way that grown men have. This is why our demographic is so unbalanced. But I am telling you as a woman who has fought the stereotype a long, long, long time, that is changing. 

 

False.

 

Most female children simply don't care about videogames. Those who do have just as much access to videogames as men do. It's not as if parents these days would tell their daughters not to play videogames because that's something for men. That's not how it goes.  I'm a grown man myself. I have grown female friends who I grew up with. We all had our NES, SNES and Gameboy Classics. We all played Mario and Pokemon together. Then we hit puberty and guess what happened? My female friends lost interest in gaming. It's what most women do. Most women just aren't interested in gaming like most men are. Why? I don't know.

 

The more mainstream and accessible gaming becomes the wider the audience. Women and people from more countries then ever are playing the same games you are and sooner or later, and probably much sooner then many of you expect apparently, you will have to wake and realise we'd like a piece of the cake too and not just the crumbs on that plate. 

 

And you can have all the pieces you want. No one is stopping you from buying Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, The Sims, Portal, Final Fantasy, Tomb Raider or Phoenix Wright, all gender-neutral games I just summed up and hardly "just crumbs" of the cake. And there is many more where that came from. 

 

The statistics have been changing quite a lot as well and if you seriously thinking all these women making most of that 48% are the great majority just playing candy crush, you are not paying any attention. These forums alone should be a wake up call.

 

I am paying attention. Unlike some of you I actually go out, meet people, socialize and have a big social circle made up of men and women. My social circle does not deviate from the factual numbers that I presented earlier, which are factual numbers coming from the same surveys as that "48% of all gamers are female" number. Only a small minority of my female friends play "hardcore" videogames. Most of them play handheld games on their Nintendo DS or smartphones, maybe an occasional PC game. And even more of them don't play games at all. While in the meantime my male friends are all gamers, some of them "dudebro gamers" who stick to Call of Duty and Battlefield, while others are "MMO nerds" who stick to World of Warcraft and Wildstar Online, and some of them play anything in between. And me personally? I play everything, because I'm not just a gamer but also a game developer who wishes to broaden his horizon and not limit my source of inspiration to just a few games or genres.

 

I was recently at the Calgary Con a month or so ago and I've seen ladies outweighing the guys with their Shepard cosplay and N7 gear. Like BY FAR. 

 

Because most men aren't into tailoring and creating costumes. That's more of a women's thing. But I can assure you that if you look at the complete audience there, both cosplayers and non-cosplayers, the men outnumber the women, even on Calgary Con.

 

Pretty sure these women weren't just humoring their boyfriends....... Let's not discount how devoted our numbers are though we are still not as many in numbers as our male counterparts either. 

 

As I expected.

 

Do count on that not being true in the next 15 years or so however. If my daughter and her friends are any indication, the gaming industry better get it's gender neutrality in order by the time these girls get jobs. 

 

Why? Because you say so?

[von uber]

And I know that the sales for CoD etc are from people of the same age as the people who buy Dragon Age etc. The majority of gamers (68%) are 18+ and the majority of those 18+ gamers buy games such as CoD. It's all in the statistics, the same group of statistics you used to point out that 48% of gamers are female.

I'm not sure how that ties in with the experience of playing cod online, and the reported evidence of parents buying it for their children without knowing what It is.
I also wouldn't say the majority of gamers buy cod - the number of sales don't bear this out.
Anyway, this is massively off topic.

Mass effect 4: here's to more arse shots, cleavage armour and female pc beauty contests.

[zestalyn]

 

My response written in bold:
 

Sexist? What? When I say male protagonists are too normative, it's because there are already SO many games with male protagonists. When there's a game that has a female protagonist, that game is offering something that most games don't. People who are more interested in something that offers something the alternative versus something normative, that doesn't make them automatically prejudiced against what the normative represents. Accusing me of a double standard doesn't work because what girls like me are asking for are what guys already have alot of and  take for granted. 

The point I was trying to make is that by not giving a damn about what might encourage the gaming industry AND culture more gender neutral, you completely ignore market potential. You make it sound like the only business strategy that makes sense is by sticking to the same target market rather than considering target market expansion. 

You make the latter sound like poison, because like all interest groups that have extremists, you only listen to those who b**** and moan and make it sound like we're asking for game developers to move mountains. If you're going to bring Barbie into this, mind you Barbie is part of Mattel and Mattel has diversified their target markets by making Hot Wheel Toys for boys. Paying attention to what can engage both both sexes to maximize profits is not a very radical business strategy, and I don't see why it can't be applied to the game industry.

The game industry is like any other industry. Industries that want to evolve are all about taking risks. I don't see why you have to be so defensive and conservative about this gender-linked status quo about video games. I don't know why you are so eager to shoot down anyone who thinks the game industry should make more attempts to make the culture more gender-neutral.  Because it's not. I'm only 22 but I'd like to think if I ever raise a daughter, I'd like to introduce her to the world of healthy gaming, too, but I wish 15 years from now, she wouldn't have to endure the kind of crap I had to go through while growing up as a female gamer. To make a culture more gender-neutral, the change has got to come from the top, by rattling the status quo of how games are presented and marketed. I don't think I'm asking for that much, and if you think I am, we can agree to disagree. 

 

[Eshaye]

Response in bold:

 

Because I am witnessing it. ALL your arguments can be debunked by your own question as well. Why, because you say so? The fact that you say cosplay is more of a women's thing is quite telling of your attitude towards gender and is unfortunate. (Pretty much EVERYONE regardless of gender at that con I was at was in costume.....lolol) 

 

I also work with the public I am always amongst people, in fact my gaming has taken a serious hit in recent years due to being more social, so thanks for judging me on nothing and grasping at conjecture in an attempt to debunk me. Nice Fail. XD 

 

 

Anyway..... I would be extremely happy if ME4 or Next or whatever they are going to call it is truly a sequel. I've had very little desire in playing in the same time line as the Shepard/Reaper story and would much rather a prequel (Contact War Yeah!) or a sequel. 

 

A sequel that is many years down the road after Me3 would be perfectly possible regardless of endings. I think there's enough similarities between the games to not matter. As for effects like the green endings, unfortunately I could see Bioware saying that these effects only lasted for so long or only had a slight reach... 

 

It will sure be interesting to see how they are going to resolve that issue for sure and get out of that wet paper bag so to speak. IF it's a sequel. *cross fingers*

[The Heretic of Time]

 I don't know why you are so eager to shoot down anyone who thinks the game industry should make more attempts to make the culture more gender-neutral.  Because it's not. I'm only 22 but I'd like to think if I ever raise a daughter, I'd like to introduce her to the world of healthy gaming, too, but I wish 15 years from now, she wouldn't have to endure the kind of crap I had to go through while growing up as a female gamer. To make a culture more gender-neutral, the change has got to come from the top, by rattling the status quo of how games are presented and marketed. I don't think I'm asking for that much, and if you think I am, we can agree to disagree. 

 

Define "healthy gaming" and please tell me what you think isn't healthy about most games that - in my opinion - are already pretty gender-neutral. Do most games star male protagonists? Sure, no doubt about that. But why is that a problem? Why does gender matter to you? What is wrong with Link (The Legend of Zelda) or Geralt (The Witcher) being a dude? I don't mind Lara Croft being a woman. You don't hear me asking Crystal Dynamics to give us an option to play as a dude in Tomb Raider. In fact I kinda like Lara Croft the way she is. I also like Nathan Drake (Uncharted), basically Lara's male equivalent the way he is. Gender really doesn't matter to me. If things where reversed and most game protagonist where female, I wouldn't necessarily care, as long as these female protagonists are interesting and well written characters, that's really all that matters to me and that's really all that should matter in my opinion.

 

Would I mind seeing more female protagonists in videogames? Hell no! Would I be open to more videogames with female protagonists? Hell yes! Do I think games such as The Witcher are lesser games because they don't offer the option to play as a female Geralt, as opposed to Dragon Age who do offer the option to play as a female Inquisitor? HELL NO! That would be nothing short of ridiculous in my opinion.

 

Because I am witnessing it. ALL your arguments can be debunked by your own question as well. Why, because you say so? The fact that you say cosplay is more of a women's thing is quite telling of your attitude towards gender and is unfortunate. (Pretty much EVERYONE regardless of gender at that con I was at was in costume.....lolol) 

 

I also work with the public I am always amongst people, in fact my gaming has taken a serious hit in recent years due to being more social, so thanks for judging me on nothing and grasping at conjecture in an attempt to debunk me. Nice Fail. XD 

How can my arguments be debunked by my own question? I'm merely stating the facts about the current supply status and demand of the videogame industry, and how I think there isn't really an issue with the current status. In fact I take more issue with the notion that things should be changed because a vocal minority doesn't like what the industry has to offer. It wouldn't be such a problem if people would be more like "can you also make games with female protagonists? please? thanks in advance" instead of "the current status of the videogame industry is bad because of patriarchy and it needs to change or else!!!!".

And when I said cosplay is more of a women's thing I mean that women in general put more effort into their cosplays and are better at it than most men. At cons, almost every woman is in costume and usually a pretty good cosplay. But the men at cons, half of them aren't in costume and half of the ones who are have pretty sh*tty costumes. Maybe that one con you mentioned is different but that would be the exception rather than the rule.

 

And you also have a big social circle than surely you should also have noticed that most women don't care about playing (hardcore) videogames, and only play on occasion with their boyfriends, on their smartphones or on Facebook, maybe an occasional new The Sims game or new Rollercoaster Tycoon game. Unless you only befriend very specific kind of people who all happen to be part of that hardcore female gamer minority.