582 réponses à ce sujet

[Malanek]

The are a significant number of females who play ME multiplayer. I have no idea what the numbers are but if I had to guess I would say around 10%. And that is still a significant number of people and it's a number that is growing. So yes, although you are correct in that 48% is bloated by very casual games, the overall trend is moving towards more females playing games like ME. And those casual games are still a stepping stone.

[Seboist]

If you're going to bring Barbie into this, mind you Barbie is part of Mattel and Mattel has diversified their target markets by making Hot Wheel Toys for boys. Paying attention to what can engage both both sexes to maximize profits is not a very radical business strategy, and I don't see why it can't be applied to the game industry.

 

 

 

Talks about how a single product should cater to all audiences and then brings up an example of a company creating two separate products for different audiences.

 

Way to defeat your own argument.

[von uber]

Unlike some of you I actually go out, meet people, socialize and have a big social circle made up of men and women.

 

Just out of interest, which people were you referring to? I wasn't aware people on this forum had such indepth knowledge of each other's lives.

[zestalyn]

 

Define "healthy gaming" 

Lol my bad, when I say healthy, I mean gaming without being obsessive/letting it inhibit life goals/healthy lifestyles. I felt the need to use that word cause the idea of a parent having their kid get into video games can sound questionable at first, I didn't use that word to refer to this issue. 

The reason gender matters is the same reason why "representation matters". Same reason why people wish Hollywood would feature more protagonists who are people of color, or female characters who pass the Bechdel test, that sort of thing. One side will say that's not marketable, but that's just being short-sighted. Especally for America, where there are many groups of people who would respond to a product that caters to those usually marginalized or stereotyped. 

And that's where my problem with the current gaming culture comes in - it was never welcoming to women. I don't mean to be Debbie Downer, but male gamer privilege is a real thing. Female gamers are more likely to be judged or questioned for their interest or skill in gaming, or receive harassment because of their gender. This asks the same question as those who protest sexism or sexual harassment in general: "why do so many girls get treated this way? what is it that makes that many men act that way?".

The finger usually points to how our culture has a history of objectifying women way more often than it objectifies men. This is not about generalizing all men as brainless pervs, but just an age-old cultural bias that was institutionalized before anyone could've realized it. How do we diminish that? By change and better representation. Better, more sophisticated representation encourages more social equality between people. 

Don't get me wrong, I agree video games have been improving in that aspect, which I think shows how for the past two decades, the game industry did not have the most sophisticated representation of women. It has a history of focusing on male interests, and thats how we have this social expectation of video games being more of a guy's thing. I might even go as far to say there could be a correlation between the increase in sophisticated representations of women and the increase in girls getting into triple A games. 

No evidence to back that up, but I believe that's usually the kind of effect "better representation" has. I'll always remember the way Whoopi Goldberg described how she got into acting:

 

Talks about how a single product should cater to all audiences and then brings up an example of a company creating two separate products for different audiences.

 

Way to defeat your own argument.

Oh jeez, I'm sorry Hot Wheels Toys was the first thing to come to mind. But If you really want to get into that, Mattel does also manufacture action figures marketed towards boys. Don't tell me action figures and dolls are totally different things. They're essentially the same product but show Mattel catering to different sexes. 

Now if you REALLY want to get into it, we can get into a whole debate about why the hell Mattel thinks girls are associated pink glittery crap, and boys with super heroes. That is something alot of people already do resent FYI. 

[The Heretic of Time]

Just out of interest, which people were you referring to? I wasn't aware people on this forum had such indepth knowledge of each other's lives.

 

No one specific. I just know that a good chunk of gamers who also post on forums like these are introverts in real life with not really a social circle going on. Maybe you're one of them, maybe you're not. Beats me. I'm just saying that I'm not one of them and I'm actually very much aware of what is going on around me in the real world.

[Seboist]

 

Now if you REALLY want to get into it, we can get into a whole debate about why the hell Mattel thinks girls are associated pink glittery crap, and boys with super heroes. That is something alot of people already do resent FYI. 

 

 

Yes, I'm aware of this "debate" and other first world "problems". Contrary to what's taught in womyn studies or in left wing blank slate theory, boys and girls have differing tastes. There are exceptions sure, but they only prove the rule.

[The Heretic of Time]

 

Oh jeez, I'm sorry Hot Wheels Toys was the first thing to come to mind. But If you really want to get into that, Mattel does also manufacture action figures marketed towards boys. Don't tell me action figures and dolls are totally different things. They're essentially the same product but show Mattel catering to different sexes. 

Now if you REALLY want to get into it, we can get into a whole debate about why the hell Mattel thinks girls are associated pink glittery crap, and boys with super heroes. That is something alot of people already do resent FYI. 

 

 

Oh please, no one is stopping you from buying super heroes or robot action figures for your daughters. Girls are associated with pink glittery crap because that's what girls like and girls want. Some girls also like masculine action hero toys. That's cool. Then buy them a batman actionfigure instead of a barbie. Problem solved.

 

I really don't see what there is to resent here. You're making an issue out of nothing.

As for "male privilege" in videogames and not being welcoming to women: that's a load of bull as well. No one is stopping women from playing videogames and if women wouldn't make such a big deal out of their own gender then most men wouldn't either. When I play a videogame online I bump into women plenty of times. The women who are just there to enjoy the game and act like "one of the guys" are usually treated no different than the other guys. Women who make a big deal out of them being "gurlllllllll gamurrrsssssss" or start complaining about "male privelege" while we just want to have fun and play our f*cking games, those are the women who will indeed not be very welcomed.

Besides, it's not surprising that some men feel resentment towards female gamers, for the longest time women (and society in general) have stigmatized us gamers are a bunch of socially-secluded nerds who won't get any girls and who won't get laid. Girls mocked them. Then girls wanted to join them. And now girls want them to cater to their needs. Basically it comes down to this:

[von uber]

No one specific. I just know that a good chunk of gamers who also post on forums like these are introverts in real life with not really a social circle going on. Maybe you're one of them, maybe you're not. Beats me. I'm just saying that I'm not one of them and I'm actually very much aware of what is going on around me in the real world.

 

I suspect most people are.  Millions upon millions of people play games; it's the largest entertainment industry in the world despite it's myopia and pandering to specific bases.

I've been playing games since i was 8, so about 26 years. The pace of change has been glacial, and certainly hasn't kept apace with it's global appeal and userbase.

[von uber]

 Girls are associated with pink glittery crap because that's what girls like and girls want. Etc

 

 

Pink was originally associatated with boys. Marketing changed that. Just like how marketing teaches very young girls to buy pink crap.

Girls were also not responsible for gamers to be treated as nerds, that is routed in the portayal in Hollywood and TV (another industry dominated by men).

You are exceptionally touchy about this subject for some reason.

[Seboist]

 

Besides, it's not surprising that some men feel resentment towards female gamers, for the longest time women (and society in general) have stigmatized us gamers are a bunch of socially-secluded nerds who won't get any girls and who won't get laid. Girls mocked them. Then girls wanted to join them. And now girls want them to cater to them. Basically it comes down to this:

 

A couple of years ago I had a broad whom I used to play SNES when we were kids tell me "you still play that?!" when seeing a PS2 at my place. I should've thrown her out for that.

[The Heretic of Time]

Pink was originally associatated with boys. Marketing changed that. Just like how marketing teaches very young girls to buy pink crap.

Girls were also not responsible for gamers to be treated as nerds, that is routed in the portayal in Hollywood and TV (another industry dominated by men).

You are exceptionally touchy about this subject for some reason.

Ah so when pink is associated with boys its okay, but associating it with women is bad somehow because...why exactly?

Also, preference isn't taught, it something you are either born with or develop over the years. No amount of marketing is going to change the mind of a 4 years old on what he/she wants. I happened to be a rare care where I liked Barbie equally to GI Joe and Action Man. I figured my Action Man needed himself a girlfriend and so I asked my mother to buy me a Barbie.

 

And girls not responsible for gamers being treated as nerds is a load of crap and I speak from experience. The popular kids always used to mock the gamer kids and we all know how important popularity is to an average teenage girl. It's only since gaming has become more socially accepted and is no longer stigmatized that women started to open up to videogames and started trying them out. Now these women are trying to change the industry and make it cater to their specific needs, the industry us men have enjoyed for years and for the longest time got mocked for by the same women. All while we STILL see the male gamer geek stereotype being played as something bad and undesirable, while geeky girls are stereotyped as being hot and desirable. Well I tell you what; I find gamer girls very undesirable and I'm no longer dating them. I take a non-gamer girl over a gamer girl any time any day of the week. At least the non-gamer girl isn't nagging me about "male gamer privilege". My last ex-girlfriend who was a "hardcore gamer" used to do that every time we where playing together. It was annoying as hell.

[Seboist]

Ah so when pink is associated with boys its okay, but associating it with women is bad somehow because...why exactly?

Also, preference isn't taught, it something you are either born with or develop over the years. No amount of marketing is going to change the mind of a 4 years old on what he/she wants. I happened to be a rare care where I liked Barbie equally to GI Joe and Action Man. I figured my Action Man needed himself a girlfriend and so I asked my mother to buy me a Barbie.

 

 

Sounds like a poor man's version of a Bioware romance(which are pretty poor to begin with).

[zestalyn]

 

Oh please, no one is stopping you from buying super heroes or robot action figures for your daughters. Girls are associated with pink glittery crap because that's what girls like and girls want. Some girls also like masculine action hero toys. That's cool. Then buy them a batman actionfigure instead of a barbie. Problem solved.

 

I really don't see what there is to resent here. You're making an issue out of nothing.

As for "male privilege" in videogames and not being welcoming to women: that's a load of bull as well. No one is stopping women from playing videogames and if women wouldn't make such a big deal out of their own gender then most men wouldn't either. When I play a videogame online I bump into women plenty of times. The women who are just there to enjoy the game and act like "one of the guys" are usually treated no different than the other guys. Women who make a big deal out of them being "gurlllllllll gamurrrsssssss" or start complaining about "male privelege" while we just want to have fun and play our f*cking games, those are the women who will indeed not be very welcomed.

Besides, it's not surprising that some men feel resentment towards female gamers, for the longest time women (and society in general) have stigmatized us gamers are a bunch of socially-secluded nerds who won't get any girls and who won't get laid. Girls mocked them. Then girls wanted to join them. And now girls want them to cater to their needs. Basically it comes down to this:

 

Oh no..just no...WHY are you using your own personal experiences as the basis for what all female gamers are going through? Why are you excusing resentment towards female gamers? I just explained to you why gender matters, because representation matters, and that affects how people treat each other, because that is the power of popular culture. 

That's great that your experience only saw equality, because I'm sorry to burst your bubble, me and my girl friends did not have that kind of experience growing up, nor did alot of other women who are either fans or professionals who have also been outspoken about this issue whether it was from personal experiences at home, online, at conventions, etc. Did you know guys still say things like "go back to the kitchen" or sexually harass us, or give us snide remarks when we walk into video game stores, and beyond? Just because you never experienced or witnessed racism, doesn't mean it's still a problem that's worth addressing and making attempts to challenge. 

I thought we were just about to come to an understanding by agreeing that more video games have been enjoying more sophisticated representations of women, while coincidentally enjoying more female gamers in triple A gaming. That's thanks to companies like Bioware, and that brings me back to square one. The rest of the industry can use more of it, because the culture can still use more social equality. Change can sound like making a bad marketing move, but that is just being short sighted. There is always room for change, improvement, innovation. There is no point in making stagnancy a business principle 

 

[von uber]

Stuff

 

So basically your issues come down to the fact that teenage girls were not interested in you and therefore girls should not be allowed to play games?

 

As i see it:

 

• Is there a problem with how women are portrayed in games? Yes
• Are there sufficent women in the industry? No
• is the abuse of those girls who do play games acceptable? No
• Should we try and make gaming more open to everyone regardless of gender? Yes

i fail to see how this is threatening in any way to either men, the games industry or you personally. I am a male, white and work in a very male dominated industry (engineering - we have one women out of 22 in our section for example). We are working our hardest to get more women interested and involved in engineering, to break down the barriers to their entry and make them feel welcome. There are still massively sexist practices that go on, and some of the attitudes (like those shown in a few replies here) are positively stone age in their outlook; but we are trying to improve.

 

It's about time the games industry did the same. Bioware at least seem to be making the right noises (arse shots aside).

[The Heretic of Time]

That's great that your experience only saw equality, because I'm sorry to burst your bubble, me and my girl friends did not have that kind of experience growing up, nor did alot of other women who are either fans or professionals who have also been outspoken about this issue whether it was from personal experiences at home, online, at conventions, etc. Did you know guys still say things like "go back to the kitchen" or sexually harass us, or give us snide remarks when we walk into video game stores, and beyond? Just because you never experienced or witnessed racism, doesn't mean it's still a problem that's worth addressing and making attempts to challenge. 

I thought we were just about to come to an understanding by agreeing that more video games have been enjoying more sophisticated representations of women, while coincidentally enjoying more female gamers in triple A gaming. That's thanks to companies like Bioware, and that brings me back to square one. The rest of the industry can use more of it, because the culture can still use more social equality. Change can sound like making a bad marketing move, but that is just being short sighted. There is always room for change, improvement, innovation. There is no point in making stagnancy a business principle 

 

Racism? Since when is the female gender a race?

 

And I do see the occasional "go back to the kitchen" in online games, don't get me wrong. Just as I still see the occasional "look at that loser and his videogames, he's probably not getting laid" directed towards men. Both still happen occasionally. But guess what? The people who say this crap are immature dumbasses. The best thing to do would just be to ignore them, or mock them through agreeing and amplifying, for example: "Yeah you're right, I should finish that cake that I was baking for my sexy alpha male husband, then give him a blow-job when he gets home while you're stuck to jacking off to Brazzers because you probably don't have a girlfriend if you treat women like this."

[Madcat 124]

Hey, anyone hear about that game Mass Effect? I heard it's pretty cool.

[Seboist]

 I am a male, white and work in a very male dominated industry (engineering - we have one women out of 22 in our section for example). We are working our hardest to get more women interested and involved in engineering, to break down the barriers to their entry and make them feel welcome. There are still massively sexist practices that go on, and some of the attitudes (like those shown in a few replies here) are positively stone age in their outlook; but we are trying to improve.

 

It's about time the games industry did the same. Bioware at least seem to be making the right noises (arse shots aside).

 

It can't be that a lot of women simply aren't interested in getting into engineering, nah, that's just crazy talk amirite?

 

And LOL @BW making the "right noises", funny that their female designs don't look all that different from what one would find in Dead or Alive(which is a better game than ME),no?

 

[The Heretic of Time]

So basically your issues come down to the fact that teenage girls were not interested in you and therefore girls should not be allowed to play games?

 

As i see it:

 

• Is there a problem with how women are portrayed in games? Yes
• Are there sufficent women in the industry? No
• is the abuse of those girls who do play games acceptable? No
• Should we try and make gaming more open to everyone regardless of gender? Yes

i fail to see how this is threatening in any way to either men, the games industry or you personally. I am a male, white and work in a very male dominated industry (engineering - we have one women out of 22 in our section for example). We are working our hardest to get more women interested and involved in engineering, to break down the barriers to their entry and make them feel welcome. There are still massively sexist practices that go on, and some of the attitudes (like those shown in a few replies here) are positively stone age in their outlook; but we are trying to improve.

 

It's about time the games industry did the same. Bioware at least seem to be making the right noises (arse shots aside).

 

Ah, so you're a typical white knight male, not an actual female gamer. I expected as much.

But no, the issue is that guys like me got stigmatized back in the 80's and even the 90's as being undesirable nerds simply for preferring to play videogames over playing football and getting drunk. And pretty much all women joined in on that. It's not just me, it's most "hardcore gamers" who grew up in the 80's. And I never said women are not allowed to play videogames.


The way I see it:

- Is there a problem how women are portrayed in games? No, not more than there is a "problem" in how men are portrayed in games.

- Is there sufficient women in the industry? Yes. Screw this whole "both genders need to be represented equally in all fields and work areas" mentality. It's ridiculous an nonsensical. What I DO think is an issue is how the few women who DO want to join the game industry are treated like crap. THAT needs to change.

- Is the abuse of those girls who play games acceptable? No, of course not. Just like the abuse of guys who play games is not acceptable.

- Should we try to make gaming more open to everyone regardless of gender? Yes and No. Videogames are pieces of art and pieces of entertainment, not a political platform. The quality of a game is important than political correctness. Because quality will sell your game, political correctness not necessarily. Games are art and video game developers are artists. Artists should have the freedom to create whatever they want. If you or women want to add more games that are catering to women to the mix, then instead of complaining, start your own videogame company and start making your own games. Then if it pays of and your games are selling a lot you know you did the right thing. If your games aren't selling a lot then well, there is your answer.

[The Heretic of Time]

It can't be that a lot of women simply aren't interested in getting into engineering, nah, that's just crazy talk amirite?

 

And LOL @BW making the "right noises", funny that their female designs don't look all that different from what one would find in Dead or Alive(which is a better game than ME),no?

 

In that light, I'd say The Witcher, a game where you can only play as a male character, is actually way more progressive:

[zestalyn]

 

Racism? Since when is the female gender a race?

 

And I do see the occasional "go back to the kitchen" in online games, don't get me wrong. Just as I still see the occasional "look at that loser and his videogames, he's probably not getting laid" directed towards men. Both still happen occasionally. But guess what? The people who say this crap are immature dumbasses. The best thing to do would just be to ignore them, or mock them through agreeing and amplifying, for example: "Yeah you're right, I should finish that cake that I was baking for my sexy alpha male husband, then give him a blow-job when he gets home while you're stuck to jacking off to Brazzers because you probably don't have a girlfriend if you treat women like this."

I was making an analogy  i.e. "just because you haven't experienced/witnessed sexism in gaming, doesn't mean it's not a thing". I made that analogy because you see alot of white people say "racism doesnt exist" when those people are ridiculously wrong. 

Yes I agree those people are immature dumbasses who don't even deserve a reply from me, but the sad fact is that there are alot of those folks. Just like there alot of unfortunate racists and other equally blind people, it's worth making attempts to change our culture by institutionalizing more progressive practices in cultural spheres that have something to do with it. 
 

 

[Gkonone]

Going by their track record, I'm not thinking much of it. Moving forward is vague, and  'listening to what gamers want', well, they gave us a crappy ending despite the extended cut, not sure how it will be different in the future.

[Drone223]

Going by their track record, I'm not thinking much of it. Moving forward is vague, and  'listening to what gamers want', well, they gave us a crappy ending despite the extended cut, not sure how it will be different in the future.

listening to fans =/= doing as the fans say.

[The Heretic of Time]

it's worth making attempts to change our culture by institutionalizing more progressive practices in cultural spheres that have something to do with it. 

And this I find a very dangerous view, because it's reversed logic and it's getting close to censorship. Videogames are art and should not be institutionalized. Artists should be free to express the kind of art they want to express. 

I believe in vote with your wallet. If you don't like something, don't buy it. Instead buy products do you agree with. But I guess i's something you're already doing by not buying The Witcher 3 because it doesn't offer you a female protagonist, which matters a great deal more to you than a good story with a good protagonist, so you settle with Dragon Age Inquisition instead. Personally I'd advice you to give The Witcher 3 a try anyway because while Geralt is a man, he's a great character with a lot of depth in a very mature and fleshed-out world.

[von uber]

Ah, so you're a typical white knight male, not an actual female gamer. I expected as much.
 

 

I am a 'white knight' because I think there is a problem? You are basically saying that as a male I cannot be for more women in games without being labelled a white knight. That's a ****** poor argument and you know it. This is a complex issue and to reduce it to that is pathetic.

 

As to the rest of your points, I'm going to bed. I'll demolish them in the morning... but you do realise that having more women in games will not stop you from playing them, not will they stop playing whatever male fantasy role you want to play either?

 

White knight.. you have made me laugh, I'll give you that. Sometimes I feel very old at the age of 34; I supect that a lot of this is cultural too. In the UK we do not have such a rabid anti-women in games sentiment (like in engineering). Make of that as you will.

[Gkonone]

listening to fans =/= doing as the fans say.

Not sure what your point is. I actually just said that.