The Chantry said take the elves in- that's hardly making certain the elves were to be treated as second class citizens. There's also nothing to suggest that the Chantry has never made any efforts to help the elves.
No, it's "take in and forcibly convert" that ensured the second-class citizen treatment. The Dalish weren't allowed to leave, they had to flee.
No, it's "take in and forcibly convert" that ensured the second-class citizen treatment. The Dalish weren't allowed to leave, they had to flee.
Er, those aren't inherently connected. Either of them. Conversion can often be a way to improved assimilation and acceptance, while being forced to flee doesn't mean that departure isn't allowed as well.
Er, those aren't inherently connected. Either of them.
I don't know; banning one's ancestral religion seems pretty unpleasantly focused to me.
It would be ironic if the dalish and city elves are the descendents of the elven underclass......it might even explain the mystical aspect of elves and humans always being humans, the upper class elves see the underclass elves choosing to live with humans.
They think; fine if you want to live among humans and abandon your own than so be it. Than your children won't be elves anymore since thats what you aren't anymore.
Or they did it possibly to mess with alliances but it could also explain a sudden drop in elvish population if the the underclass, probably the majority of elves were mating with humans and finding their children not to be humans and why the elves managed to lose despite the advantage.
Almost a cutting off your nose to spite your face kind of thing.
While it's possible the Dalish and their city brethren could be descended from the working class of Arlathan (I don't think anyone on either side presumes to be descended from the nobility of Arlathan), the siege by the Imperium seems to be the breaking point that lead to the fall of Arlathan, with the human mages sinking it into the ground with blood magic; interestingly enough, Tamlen mentions seeing an underground city in the Dalish Origin.
Felassan also made a point of addressing that the Arlathan elves were immortal, so who knows. I doubt we will ever know the whole truth.
As for Merill she was kind of naive and child-like, varric had to pay people to protect her after all...I mean if you asked her she probably would have told you that of course cities are dangerous; much like she realizes demons/spirits are dangerous.
Culture shock about a foreign society isn't quite the same thing. Merrill repeatedly demonstrates her intelligence (in discerning whether or not Keran is possessed, or about the nature of the Profane Abomination and Torpor, as merely two examples), but she is a Dalish elf living in a human city. Varric also protected his friends without their knowledge, from Anders and his clinic, and presumably apostate Hawke (since Varric was friends with templars like Thrask, who he played cards with in his short story).
Could the ancient elves have sealed away the old gods? Well; they did know how to seal away dragons beneath the stone/underground back then.....an old god is basically just a bigger dragon....so its certainly not far from what we know they can already do.
I wondered if the Olds Gods could be the Forgotten Ones - the nemesis of the Creators. They were supposed to have been sealed underground, while the Creators were trapped in the Eternal City by Fen'Harel.
According to his story, "In ancient times, only Fen'Harel could walk without fear among both our gods and the Forgotten Ones, for although he is kin to the gods of the People, the Forgotten Ones knew of his cunning ways and saw him as one of their own. And that is how Fen'Harel tricked them. Our gods saw him as a brother, and they trusted him when he said that they must keep to the heavens while he arranged a truce. And the Forgotten Ones trusted him also when he said he would arrange for the defeat of our gods, if only the Forgotten Ones would return to the abyss for a time. They trusted Fen'Harel, and they were all of them betrayed. And FenHarel sealed them away so they could never again walk among the People."
My goals as a Dalish Mage Inquisitor.
1) Uncover the secrets and mysteries of the Ancient Elves.
2) Uncover who or what is behind the tears in the Veil and close them if possible.
3) End the Mage-Templar war with the mages victorious.
4) End the Orlesian civil war with Celene the victor. Reconcile with Briala if possible.
5) Promote better human/elf relations. Only united can we overcome the Demons, Darkspawn and Qunari.
6) Conquer the Tevinter Imperium.
7) Reform the Chantry.
8) Establish new elven homeland. Preferable the Dales.
I'd like to go further, if the developers allow it.
1) It's fine
2) If the tears are caused by a force friendly to elves, then side with him (I suspect ancient elves are behind the tears)
3) End the war killing both templars and mages
4) If Briala is a possibility, then side with her killing Celene and Gaspard
5) Ban humans, or turn them in "servants" (this is impossible in the game, humans are too many. But with time...)
6) Tevinter it's too dangerous, fortify the borders while elves from other lands come to the new elven land. Make an alliance with Ferelden (they hate Orlais, and the last two kings like elves)
7) Ban the Chantry
8) Establish new elven homeland. ALL ORLAIS
Please Bioware, that's the outcome I'd like to see. Yes, somebody can say that turning a whole nation in an elven land can be a problem in future games. It is so only if we come back to Orlais, in an other setting it has a marginal role.
I thought I was ambitious. All right new plan.I'd like to go further, if the developers allow it.
1) It's fine
2) If the tears are caused by a force friendly to elves, then side with him (I suspect ancient elves are behind the tears)
3) End the war killing both templars and mages
4) If Briala is a possibility, then side with her killing Celene and Gaspard
5) Ban humans, or turn them in "servants" (this is impossible in the game, humans are too many. But with time...)
6) Tevinter it's too dangerous, fortify the borders while elves from other lands come to the new elven land. Make an alliance with Ferelden (they hate Orlais, and the last two kings like elves)
7) Ban the Chantry
8) Establish new elven homeland. ALL ORLAIS
Please Bioware, that's the outcome I'd like to see. Yes, somebody can say that turning a whole nation in an elven land can be a problem in future games. It is so only if we come back to Orlais, in an other setting it has a marginal role.
Guest_Faerunner_*
The Chantry said take the elves in- that's hardly making certain the elves were to be treated as second class citizens. There's also nothing to suggest that the Chantry has never made any efforts to help the elves.
The Chantry invaded and conquered their homeland, forcefully converted them to their own religion when they had shown no interest prior or during the war, branded their previous religion savage, heretical and heathen, and ensured the majority of elves were now homeless despots who had nowhere to go when they "took them in."
Before the war, humans used propaganda against elves. Dales Codex Human POV: "Dark rumors spread in the lands that bordered the Dales, whispers of humans captured and sacrificed to elven gods." No basis in fact, but Chantry historians gladly record it anyway to perpetuate anti-elf sentiment. After the war, the Chantry slashed sections of the Chant of Light portraying elves in a positive light. Canticles of Shartan? Now the "Heresy of Shartan." That little tidbit that the elves were the first to answer Andraste's call? Gone from public teaching. Actually forbidden in most places, if the wiki is any indication.
The Chantry keeps the stuff that condemns elves but removes the parts that portray them positively in the Andrastian religion; the very religion they were forced to convert to after being forced to live with humans - but sure, I'm sure that has nothing to do with helping to ensure elves are kept as second-class citizens.
Er, those aren't inherently connected. Either of them. Conversion can often be a way to improved assimilation and acceptance, while being forced to flee doesn't mean that departure isn't allowed as well.
City Elf Codex, CE POV: "We were not enslaved as we had been before, but our worship of the ancient gods was now forbidden. We were allowed to live among the humans only as second-class citizens who worshipped their Maker."
City Elf Codex, Dalish POV: "They were freed, but they have returned to live in the service of their former masters. They are housed like animals in walled sections of the shemlen's cities. They do the meanest of tasks and are rewarded with nothing. Why? I do not know.."
City Elf Codex, Human POV (Written by Sister Petrine, a Chantry scholar): "When the holy Exalted March of the Dales resulted in the dissolution of the elven kingdom, leaving a great many elves homeless once again, the Divine Renata I declared that all lands loyal to the Chantry must give the elves refuge within their own walls... There was one condition, however--the elves were to lay aside their pagan gods and live under the rule of the Chantry."
Took their homeland, made them homeless, then forced them to convert to their religion and live under their rule.
"Some of the elves refused our goodwill. They banded together to form the wandering Dalish elves... Most of the elves, however, saw that it was wisest to live under the protection of humans."
What are they in danger of besides humans? Besides, how dare they want to be free and independent? Shouldn't they grovel with gratitude at the chance to kiss human feet and jump at the chance to serve human households after humans conquered, dissolved, and took over their kingdom?
"And so we took the elves into our cities and tried to integrate them. We invited them into our own homes and gave them jobs as servants and farmhands."
In other words, elves can be in human societies and homes as long as they're serving humans in the lowliest scut jobs; not sitting at their tables as equals.
"Here, in Denerim, the elves even have their own quarter, governed by an elven keeper. Most have proven to be productive members of society."
As long as they're serving humans without complaint.
"Still, a small segment of the elven community remains dissatisfied."
As we see in the City Elf Origin and other parts of the game, why should they be dissatisfied with mass poverty, disease and hunger born from having access only to menial and dangerous scut jobs (crippled beggar), being turned out of their homes on a whim of their human landlords (Nessa's family), having no chance for social advancement beyond more prestigious service to humans (Iona), having to put up with abuse from their human overlords but getting cracked down on the minute they do something wrong (Vaughan and Howe), etc? Being dependent on the Chantry to issue wedding permits and ceremonies when few priests actually come out to the alienage (Mother Boann was the only one who came out to the Denerim Alienage.) Getting their homes looted and burned down, and themselves possibly lynched by humans if they try to move out of the alienage (Alienage Codex). Why shouldn't they be content with this?
"These troublemakers and malcontents roam the streets causing mayhem, rebelling against authority and making a general nuisance of themselves."
Elves = subservient. Humans = authority. Any elves that try to subvert this are branded "troublemakers" and "malcontents" that need to be put back in their place. All elves should be content serving humans, taking whatever scraps humans throw at them, and happily accepting whatever treatment humans inflict on them.
The Chantry has absolutely no intention of improving assimilation and acceptance of elves. If they did, they would have done it a long time ago as it's been about 700 years since the fall of the Dales and they have had many opportunities. The Canticles of Shartan, the historical fact that the elves were the first the answer Andraste's call to arms, the historical fact that the Grey Warden that slew the Archdemon and saved the world from the 4th Blight was the Elven Garahel. I could go on. But no, they choose to leave those out while constantly rehashing (and embellishing) "the atrocities committed by the elves at Red Crossing" and "their silent, ancient gods." It's been 700 years. Let it go.
As it was the Chantry that came to lead the war against the Dales after they curbstomped Orlais I think it is fairly obvious to assume the Divine at the time ordered the Dales anexed.
Not really. That would just be an assumption- and a rather silly one on your part, considering you just previously tried to argue that the Chantry was an extension of the Imperial Court.
Now, as it happens, if there was ever a period in which the Imperial Court might have dominated the Chantry's policies, I'd agree that the period of the Dales is a good time. But the more influence the Orlesian court has, the more responsibility it was also have.
But, as it is, international coalitions can operate in any number of ways. So do context that lead to policy.
And what else would you call an exalted march than a war of extermination? They very purpose of the Chantry's exalated marches are to enforce their will and exterminate heathens.
A war of self-defense of the faithful is an obvious one. You know, since those heathen elves were the ones sacking and invading Orlais until the March turned things around. Other descriptions can include 'international coalition against rogue power.'
Of course, it's probably inconvenient for you to note that of the three main exalted marches in the past, none of them were genocidal in scope or intent, and two of them were in self-defense to an external aggressor who posed a serious threat. The third was the Exalted March against Tevinter, which was in the context and return to power of one of the most evil ruling classes in Thedas history.
But never mind the lack of extermination camps, any signs of deliberate famine, forced interbreeding and destruction of the racial group, or other genocidal policies that could warrant being called an 'extermination.'
The Chantry very much is an extension of Orlais. It was founded by the very same person whom brought Orlais to greatness if I remember my lore correctly. its headquarters are situated in the Orleasian capital and the officials of both courts mingle frequently. While the Chantry is technicaly "inderpendent" it's quite obvious that the secular power, and the clergy share many of the same goals and influence each other extensivly.
By this logic, the Papacy is an extension of Italy, the UN is an extension of the US, and the European Union is an extension of Belgium. To which anyone with a passing understanding of modern politics would laugh, and point at that being allies and even co-located does not make two groups an extension of one another.
Orlais and the Chantry are allies. But then, the Chantry is allies with Nevarra, the Anderfels, the Free Marches, Ferelden, and a few others I mentioned. Orlais is the most influential ally of the Chantry, but the Chantry itself is an international institution.
There's a reason the second most powerful human nation in Thedas broke with the Orleasian chantry after all.
Tevinter's mages do like their slaveholding mageocracy, it's true.
The Divine at the time of the Exalted march on the Dales outlawed the Dalish religion and established the first Alienage. Passages in the Chant of Light have been removed if they looked favourably on the elves, and elves need a permit to marry. Holding them as slaves is while illegal more or less acceptable in Orlais.
And the alternatives, especially at the time of the Exalted March on the Dales and the fall after a hard ten year war that saw a good part of Orlais damaged, could have been far, far worse. You're citing this as a list of why it's obvious the Chantry is evil: what you're ignoring is what the prospects and alternatives of the time could easily have been. You're also ignoring any look at the motivations behind those actions... motivations which, in the context of the times and the influences of others, would be what distinguished them from being good or bad when the choices could be between bad and worse.
Here are some real, and worse, alternatives that could have been done. Outlaw the Dalish religion and allow conversion or exile? Extermination. Establish the first alienages as refugee slums? Don't, and allow mass starvation from a breakdown of society and simple lack of aid. Remove pro-elf passages from religious texts that could be used to ferment revolution? Insert actively anti-elf dogma into religious doctrine. De facto serfdom of the conquered? De jure slavery of the same.
Of course, all that could also be avoided for the simpler policy of active extermination of the followers of a racial purity ideology that equates humans to parasites and which already conducted human massacres in the sacks of the initial Dales invasion. (Because when you sack a city, that's what happens.)
So your list really doesn't impress me until you can bring forth the context of the times, and what the Chantry was operating amongst and, more importantly, the realities it was operating against. Because, somehow, I don't think the Orlesians and rest of Thedas were feeling the Dales got off easy and that the Chantry pushed the envelope.
Well, pray tell, what does the Chantry have speaking in favour of it, except some local level support of poor humans?
International and local-level mediation, common defense against real threats and far more oppressive ideologies, cultural and diplomatic pressures against a number of abhorrent practices, the only existing route for cultural assimilation and common identity for individuals regardless of race (without hyper-oppressive enforced collectivism), the internationalization, neutralization, and demilitarization of both mages and lyrium as tools of the state for war and competitive advantage, public defense and response against fade threats, charity, female empowerment.
Plus, preventing a variety of very plausible 'worse' case scenarios from befalling the vanquished Dales after a long and bitter war of much acrimony and that the victors believed the Dales were overwhelmingly responsible for.
The Chantry invaded and conquered their homeland, forcefully converted them to their own religion when they had shown no interest prior or during the war, branded their previous religion savage, heretical and heathen, and ensured the majority of elves were now homeless despots who had nowhere to go when they "took them in."
Alternatively: the Chantry led an international coalition against a rogue state with a xenophobic racial-cultural ideology, possibly highly authoritarian in enforcement for a lack of known dissidents who could escape and no known permissions of freedom of expression, who had just launched a savage, unjustified, and unprovoked invasion of a major Andrastian nation in the name of religious intolerance. And, having spent a decade of blood and treasure to push back the invaders and ensure they could not launch another invasion, took responsibility for many of the refugees who agreed to assimilate rather than put their former foe to the sword or even simply see death for a lack of aid.
I can play the hyperbolic game as well.
Before the war, humans used propaganda against elves. Dales Codex Human POV: "Dark rumors spread in the lands that bordered the Dales, whispers of humans captured and sacrificed to elven gods." No basis in fact, but Chantry historians gladly record it anyway to perpetuate anti-elf sentiment. After the war, the Chantry slashed sections of the Chant of Light portraying elves in a positive light. Canticles of Shartan? Now the "Heresy of Shartan." That little tidbit that the elves were the first to answer Andraste's call? Gone from public teaching. Actually forbidden in most places, if the wiki is any indication.
If the wiki is any indication, its writers were selective with their facts and interpretations. Is it still claiming there is evidence the Chantry is responsible for the rumors?
Now, of course, you piece here is bumbling. The propoganda, regardless of its accuracy, was almost certainly mutual... but the Chantry isn't presented as responsible for it, and yet the Chantry's acknowledgement of the context of human tensions suddenly becomes endorsement and propoganda itself. Somehow a historian acknowledging there were rumors becomes an endorsement.
We could talk about why Shartan's removal and the religious retcon can make sense in context, but sense is the antithesis of being evil apparently. You can't have a good reason for doing something bad. (Like, say, removing an obvious symbol of revolution and legitimization for agitators in that newly arriving populace).
The Chantry keeps the stuff that condemns elves but removes the parts that portray them positively in the Andrastian religion; the very religion they were forced to convert to after being forced to live with humans - but sure, I'm sure that has nothing to do with helping to ensure elves are kept as second-class citizens.
It doesn't- on both points, actually. The Andrastian dogma doesn't condemn the elves. And it's the nations, not the Chantry, which determines what sort of citizens the elves will be. Citizenship is a secular responsibility.
City Elf Codex, CE POV: "We were not enslaved as we had been before, but our worship of the ancient gods was now forbidden. We were allowed to live among the humans only as second-class citizens who worshipped their Maker."
City Elf Codex, Dalish POV: "They were freed, but they have returned to live in the service of their former masters. They are housed like animals in walled sections of the shemlen's cities. They do the meanest of tasks and are rewarded with nothing. Why? I do not know.."
City Elf Codex, Human POV (Written by Sister Petrine, a Chantry scholar): "When the holy Exalted March of the Dales resulted in the dissolution of the elven kingdom, leaving a great many elves homeless once again, the Divine Renata I declared that all lands loyal to the Chantry must give the elves refuge within their own walls... There was one condition, however--the elves were to lay aside their pagan gods and live under the rule of the Chantry."
Took their homeland, made them homeless, then forced them to convert to their religion and live under their rule.
Me thinks you didn't understand what you were quoting as a response to what was being quoted, or you would see there's no disagreement in this rebuttal.
"Some of the elves refused our goodwill. They banded together to form the wandering Dalish elves... Most of the elves, however, saw that it was wisest to live under the protection of humans."
What are they in danger of besides humans?
Starvation and plague (the most immediate in a catastrophic war), darkspawn (of which there have already been two near-apocalyptic wars), non-Andrastian humans (of which there are a number), magic-related threats (abominations and spirits), Qunari (though obviously they won't matter for awhile yet), radical anti-human elves (who could lead them into another disastrous war).
Besides, how dare they want to be free and independent? Shouldn't they grovel with gratitude at the chance to kiss human feet and jump at the chance to serve human households after humans conquered, dissolved, and took over their kingdom?
Who says they should?
Of course, the humans conquering, dissolving, and taking over their kingdom doesn't make the humans evil either. That depends quite a bit on the conduct and nature of the Dales- which tend to be agreed upon by all the in-universe groups as the ones who actually initiated the war and did serious damage in a very serious invasion that was understood by the victorious side as an unprovoked act of aggression.
Whether you believe the missionaries were a sufficient provocation or not, Orlais and the Chantry do not appear to have believed so. Therefore, their actions should be considered in the light of what they believed their position to be- the victims of the Dales.
"And so we took the elves into our cities and tried to integrate them. We invited them into our own homes and gave them jobs as servants and farmhands."
In other words, elves can be in human societies and homes as long as they're serving humans in the lowliest scut jobs; not sitting at their tables as equals.
"Here, in Denerim, the elves even have their own quarter, governed by an elven keeper. Most have proven to be productive members of society."
As long as they're serving humans without complaint.
"Still, a small segment of the elven community remains dissatisfied."
As we see in the City Elf Origin and other parts of the game, why should they be dissatisfied with mass poverty, disease and hunger born from having access only to menial and dangerous scut jobs (crippled beggar), being turned out of their homes on a whim of their human landlords (Nessa's family), having no chance for social advancement beyond more prestigious service to humans (Iona), having to put up with abuse from their human overlords but getting cracked down on the minute they do something wrong (Vaughan and Howe), etc? Being dependent on the Chantry to issue wedding permits and ceremonies when few priests actually come out to the alienage (Mother Boann was the only one who came out to the Denerim Alienage.) Getting their homes looted and burned down, and themselves possibly lynched by humans if they try to move out of the alienage (Alienage Codex). Why shouldn't they be content with this?
"These troublemakers and malcontents roam the streets causing mayhem, rebelling against authority and making a general nuisance of themselves."
Elves = subservient. Humans = authority. Any elves that try to subvert this are branded "troublemakers" and "malcontents" that need to be put back in their place. All elves should be content serving humans, taking whatever scraps humans throw at them, and happily accepting whatever treatment humans inflict on them.
This is rather aimless. Or rather, not relevant to any point I was making. If anyone is claiming the elves should be happy about their status as the losers, second class citizens, and the most vulnerable of society... well, that person isn't me.
The Chantry has absolutely no intention of improving assimilation and acceptance of elves. If they did, they would have done it a long time ago as it's been about 700 years since the fall of the Dales and they have had many opportunities. The Canticles of Shartan, the historical fact that the elves were the first the answer Andraste's call to arms, the historical fact that the Grey Warden that slew the Archdemon and saved the world from the 4th Blight was the Elven Garahel. I could go on. But no, they choose to leave those out while constantly rehashing (and embellishing) "the atrocities committed by the elves at Red Crossing" and "their silent, ancient gods." It's been 700 years. Let it go.
If the Chantry had absolutely no intention of improving assimilation or acceptance of elves, it wouldn't accept elves within the Chantry and as Andrastians. Elves can be religious members, leaders of Chantry institutions (even the magi), even serve in the Chantry's military and wield arms.
This is serious integration forces at work. I don't believe you grasp how important these factors can be. In Ferelden, an elf can't even kill in self defense and yet the Chantry makes profisions in which it is not only okay, but even just. Is it sufficient? Should the elves be satisfied? Of course not- but it is quite impressive by any measure of institutional availability when compared to other historic oppressed communities. It is also what is within the Chantry's influence, both as an institution in a world of racists and as a church that doesn't dictate how the civil governments run themselves.
I would certainly agree that a good new step for the Chantry to reform and further would be to reverse the rollback of the previous dogma retcon. But can you grasp why, besides 'racism!1!1!!', Chartan might have been written out? Without an understanding of reasonings why, it would be hard to discuss why more dogma changes might be harder or impossible at different times.
If the Chantry had absolutely no intention of improving assimilation or acceptance of elves, it wouldn't accept elves within the Chantry and as Andrastians. Elves can be religious members, leaders of Chantry institutions (even the magi), even serve in the Chantry's military and wield arms.
Do we have any proof of this? That is to say, do we see any elven mothers in the chantry, or elven templars? Because I can't recall an example from DA:O or DA2.
Don't take this as a challenge to the rest of your post; I'm just not sure we see evidence of integration by the Chantry of the CEs.
Not really. That would just be an assumption- and a rather silly one on your part, considering you just previously tried to argue that the Chantry was an extension of the Imperial Court.
How would it be silly, or contradictory to Orlais and the Chantry sharing intrests? Orlais, the Chantry's bastion was under threat from a "heathen" power. The Chantry used its influence with the Andrastian population in order to save itself and Orlais from defeat. It was either the emperor of Orlais, or the Chantry divine that decided to annex the Dales. Depending on whom held the most influence with the nobles and clergy at the time.
Now, as it happens, if there was ever a period in which the Imperial Court might have dominated the Chantry's policies, I'd agree that the period of the Dales is a good time. But the more influence the Orlesian court has, the more responsibility it was also have.
But, as it is, international coalitions can operate in any number of ways. So do context that lead to policy.
A war of self-defense of the faithful is an obvious one. You know, since those heathen elves were the ones sacking and invading Orlais until the March turned things around. Other descriptions can include 'international coalition against rogue power.'
I don't think the Orleasian court factores such things as "responsibility" into their judgement when they attempt new ways of expanding their own power.
I'd also like to note that to compare a High-Middle-Ages style crusade with a moder "international coaltition" is silly.
Whether or not the war with the Dales was one of self defense is disputed at best. The Chantry claims the elves commited unspecefied "astrocities" at the village of Red Crossing. While the Dalish claim the Chantry sent templars when their missionaries were sent back.
Also, sacking and invading tends to happen when a nation loose a war. It's not grounds for exterminating the winner when the war turns against them. Nothing prevented Orlais from signing a peace treaty either when they appeared to be loosing, or when they appeared to win.
Of course, it's probably inconvenient for you to note that of the three main exalted marches in the past, none of them were genocidal in scope or intent, and two of them were in self-defense to an external aggressor who posed a serious threat. The third was the Exalted March against Tevinter, which was in the context and return to power of one of the most evil ruling classes in Thedas history.
Nah, it's not inconvenient to note this for me, because it's fairly obvious to notice that all the Exalted marches were called in order to uphold Orleasian power. Either against the once more rising power of Tevinter, or when there was a very real danger of Qunari invaders in the Orleasian heartlands.
But never mind the lack of extermination camps, any signs of deliberate famine, forced interbreeding and destruction of the racial group, or other genocidal policies that could warrant being called an 'extermination.'
The Chantry exterminated what was left of Elven culture, language, art, religion and law. They forced the elves to live in small walled of communities and work as servants and slaves. They burnt elven cities to the ground and claimed their lands. While the Chantry may not have attempted to destroy the elves as a race, they exterminated them as a cultural force. And thus they exterminated them as a threat to the Chantry.
By this logic, the Papacy is an extension of Italy, the UN is an extension of the US, and the European Union is an extension of Belgium. To which anyone with a passing understanding of modern politics would laugh, and point at that being allies and even co-located does not make two groups an extension of one another.
No, the Papacy is not an extension of Italy, because the leading figures of the Papacy does not become prime ministers in Italy. Nor does the pope have much influence on italian politics. However, I would claim that the pope, had he resided in Paris in the 13th century for instance, would likely have wielded immense power over French secular politics at the time.
And the EU isn't exactly the best example, since it is filled with the political elite of Europe. Unelected and with massive power.
The UN is an extension of the power of the five members of the Security Council.
In medival times, when the higher ups in the church and goverment were often nobles and often from the same families and dynasties matters of faith and matters of state were separated by a very thin veil at best.
Orlais and the Chantry are allies. But then, the Chantry is allies with Nevarra, the Anderfels, the Free Marches, Ferelden, and a few others I mentioned. Orlais is the most influential ally of the Chantry, but the Chantry itself is an international institution.
The Chantry is not allied with Nevarra and Ferelden at least. Nevarra plays loose with Chantry law at best and is a rival to Orlais. And Ferelden only kept the Chantry after the occupation because they feared an exalted march to my understanding. The Free Marches are a bunch of inderpendent cities that either do or do not like the Chantry and Orlais much.
The Chantry is to my understanding held in much higher regard by the people than by the rulers of individual nations.
Tevinter's mages do like their slaveholding mageocracy, it's true.
They're also the second most powerful nation in Thedas, Orlais' rival along with Nevarra and the only ones keeping the Qunari occupied for now.
And the alternatives, especially at the time of the Exalted March on the Dales and the fall after a hard ten year war that saw a good part of Orlais damaged, could have been far, far worse. You're citing this as a list of why it's obvious the Chantry is evil: what you're ignoring is what the prospects and alternatives of the time could easily have been. You're also ignoring any look at the motivations behind those actions... motivations which, in the context of the times and the influences of others, would be what distinguished them from being good or bad when the choices could be between bad and worse.
Here are some real, and worse, alternatives that could have been done. Outlaw the Dalish religion and allow conversion or exile? Extermination. Establish the first alienages as refugee slums? Don't, and allow mass starvation from a breakdown of society and simple lack of aid. Remove pro-elf passages from religious texts that could be used to ferment revolution? Insert actively anti-elf dogma into religious doctrine. De facto serfdom of the conquered? De jure slavery of the same.
Of course, all that could also be avoided for the simpler policy of active extermination of the followers of a racial purity ideology that equates humans to parasites and which already conducted human massacres in the sacks of the initial Dales invasion. (Because when you sack a city, that's what happens.)
How about just sign a peace treaty and force the Dales to make some concessions like allowing missionaries and trade, while allowing the elves to keep their homeland. Seems like the easiest solution and the best one in the long run.
However. Orlais wanted their southeastern border secure no doubt, and the Chantry wanted more converts.
International and local-level mediation, common defense against real threats and far more oppressive ideologies, cultural and diplomatic pressures against a number of abhorrent practices, the only existing route for cultural assimilation and common identity for individuals regardless of race (without hyper-oppressive enforced collectivism), the internationalization, neutralization, and demilitarization of both mages and lyrium as tools of the state for war and competitive advantage, public defense and response against fade threats, charity, female empowerment.
The Chantry has only served to defend humanity against the Qunari. At all other times their wars have been to further their own goals, or those of Orlais.
The Chantry is an oppersive ideology. They practice slavery, brainwashing, literal mindrape, deliberatly make thousands of drug addicts, among other things.
The Chantry does not allow elves or dwarves in the clergy. They believe humans are superior to elves. Elves are very much not allowed to join the templars. The only reason they are allowed high possitions in the Circles is because there are more elves in the circle compared to the general population, and because the Circles have some degree of self determination.
The Chantry has not demilitarized mages or lyrium. Only placed the majority of both under their own control.
The Chantry allows states to use mages in war (as stated by the codex in Origins in mages I believe, and supported by gameplay and other canon works).
One could say that the practice of keeping the mages in their circles and driving those outside the Circles desperate only increase the chance of "fade threats". Neither the Dalish nor the Tevinter, or Rivain seems to have a big problem with it.
Charity is arguably the only good thing the Chantry provides.
Female Empowerment seems not to be needed in Thedas. The only nation that discriminated against females that we know of was Orlais. And that changed after Aveline the kinght (taught by the Dalish) showed up.
Plus, preventing a variety of very plausible 'worse' case scenarios from befalling the vanquished Dales after a long and bitter war of much acrimony and that the victors believed the Dales were overwhelmingly responsible for.
1.The Chantry has only served to defend humanity against the Qunari. At all other times their wars have been to further their own goals, or those of Orlais.
2.The Chantry is an oppersive ideology. They practice slavery, brainwashing, literal mindrape, deliberatly make thousands of drug addicts, among other things.
3.The Chantry does not allow elves or dwarves in the clergy. They believe humans are superior to elves. Elves are very much not allowed to join the templars. The only reason they are allowed high possitions in the Circles is because there are more elves in the circle compared to the general population, and because the Circles have some degree of self determination.
4.The Chantry has not demilitarized mages or lyrium. Only placed the majority of both under their own control.
5.The Chantry allows states to use mages in war (as stated by the codex in Origins in mages I believe, and supported by gameplay and other canon works).
6.One could say that the practice of keeping the mages in their circles and driving those outside the Circles desperate only increase the chance of "fade threats". Neither the Dalish nor the Tevinter, or Rivain seems to have a big problem with it.
7.Charity is arguably the only good thing the Chantry provides.
1: So in that regard the Chantry is pretty much better than any other organization and nation, except the Grey Wardens, since they actually did wage war for others than themselves. War is by its very function usually self-serving. To fault the Chantry for this... Well... Let's just say that is being wilfully dishonest.
2: No, they do not practice slavery. No, they do not practice "mind-rape". No, they do make "thousands of drug addicts". First of all, the Circles are NOT slavery, despite what some may say. We could have a lengthy discussion about jsut exactly why it is wrong to attempt to label it as such, but none of us got the time for that, and it is off-topic. No, the Circle does not practice "mind-rape". The Rite of Tranquility predates the Chantry, probably even the Circles, and it is a very neccesary function which lessens the inherent danger that ALL mages pose. It is offered as an alternative to death, so that those who fears death so much, may choose another fate. "Not much of a choice" you might say, then death row inmates shouldn't get to choose between death and luxury. Those who undergoes the Rite of Tranquility does so for a reason. And no, the Chantry does not deliberately make drug addicts out of their Templars. The Templars themselves choose to do it, because that is the only way they can get their powers.
3: There was a Dwarven member of the Chantry clergy in Orzammar so.... While we may not have been exposed to an Elven or Dwarven member of the clergy of higher rank, there is no evidence at all, that points toward it is impossible for one to reach such a rank. Just that it is probably rare. For cultural and societal reasons.
4: Why would you demilitarize mages? You cannot take away their magic without turning them tranquil, and why would the Chantry wish that? The Chantry does not wish to be overly cruel to the mages, and knows that Tranquility is not much of a mercy. Also, to allow mages to serve in the military gives a great tactical and strategic advantage to the Chantry. Again, to hold the Chantry responsible for holding the best weapons possible in their arsenal is being quite dishonest, since ANY organization and/or nation would do so.
5: Yes. So? If they let the Circle mages fight for a nation, that means this nation will owe the Chantry. Do I need to explain how much political value this holds?
6: One could also say such claim is bullshit. Every source we have points towards the time BEFORE the Circles (and after the fall of organized Tevinter magic) as a time of great magical turmoil. The Circles fixed that, and since their inception magic has posed a significantly smaller threat to the common man.
7: Political stability. Sanctuary. Neutrality. Mediation. The list goes on and on and on as for what the Chantry provides. No service is free however, so why do you expect the Chantry to provide any of it as such?
2: No, they do not practice slavery. No, they do not practice "mind-rape". No, they do make "thousands of drug addicts". First of all, the Circles are NOT slavery, despite what some may say. We could have a lengthy discussion about jsut exactly why it is wrong to attempt to label it as such, but none of us got the time for that, and it is off-topic. No, the Circle does not practice "mind-rape". The Rite of Tranquility predates the Chantry, probably even the Circles, and it is a very neccesary function which lessens the inherent danger that ALL mages pose. It is offered as an alternative to death, so that those who fears death so much, may choose another fate. "Not much of a choice" you might say, then death row inmates shouldn't get to choose between death and luxury. Those who undergoes the Rite of Tranquility does so for a reason. And no, the Chantry does not deliberately make drug addicts out of their Templars. The Templars themselves choose to do it, because that is the only way they can get their powers.
Not slavery per se, it's true, but imprisonment, usually for life, for no crime. Mind rape, however, you're completely unable to escape the truth of. I'd like a source on "predates the Chantry," and even if it does, the Chantry is its biggest practitioner in modern times--additionally, I seriously doubt that it's actually necessary, because death should never be on the cards for the Harrowing to begin with.
Oh, and they sometimes indoctrinate children in their orphanages into becoming templars.
7: Political stability. Sanctuary. Neutrality. Mediation. The list goes on and on and on as for what the Chantry provides. No service is free however, so why do you expect the Chantry to provide any of it as such?
Guest_Faerunner_*
If the wiki is any indication, its writers were selective with their facts and interpretations. Is it still claiming there is evidence the Chantry is responsible for the rumors? Now, of course, you piece here is bumbling. The propoganda, regardless of its accuracy, was almost certainly mutual... but the Chantry isn't presented as responsible for it, and yet the Chantry's acknowledgement of the context of human tensions suddenly becomes endorsement and propoganda itself. Somehow a historian acknowledging there were rumors becomes an endorsement. We could talk about why Shartan's removal and the religious retcon can make sense in context, but sense is the antithesis of being evil apparently. You can't have a good reason for doing something bad. (Like, say, removing an obvious symbol of revolution and legitimization for agitators in that newly arriving populace).
The fact that in-universe Chantry scholars and historians choose to scratch out texts that present elves positively in secular and religious history, but keep perpetuating texts that demonize and vilify elves, speaks volumes on where they stand on elves being treated as second-class citizens.
The Andrastian dogma doesn't condemn the elves.
Then why remove The Canticles of Shartan and omit public education of past elven heroes and deeds in both secular and religious human history, yet perpetuate negative accounts of elves that increase anti-elf sentiment?
And it's the nations, not the Chantry, which determines what sort of citizens the elves will be. Citizenship is a secular responsibility.
And yet the Chantry sets moral examples for the people, controls the majority of knowledge and history as the majority of Andrastian scholars, historians, teachers, tutors, et cetera are Chantry clerics, and they can and do exercise their influence over secular rule. For example, at the end of DA:O, if a Mage Warden survives the Archdemon and asks Alistair/Anora to free the Ferelden Circle from Chantry rule, said boon never gets carried out because Chantry stepped in and threatened to excommunicate the monarch if they followed through. We've seen that most priests and Templars are not shy about speaking up about how they feel "secular" people should regard and deal with mages, yet somehow they're mute and powerless when it comes to elves?
The Chantry is the spiritual and educational leader of Andrastian nations. They have a great deal of power and influence both in politics and day-to-day life, since most people place their spiritual faith and well-being in the Chantry's hands. With that power and influence, they can choose to lead by example and educate the public about the elves' positive involvement in Andrastian history (which they have - or in some places had - in their archives), accept elves into clerical and Templar positions within the Chantry, encourage common humans to treat elves more dignity and equality, stand up and speak out against injustice against elves, etc.
The fact that they don't speaks volumes.
Of course, the humans conquering, dissolving, and taking over their kingdom doesn't make the humans evil either. That depends quite a bit on the conduct and nature of the Dales- which tend to be agreed upon by all the in-universe groups as the ones who actually initiated the war and did serious damage in a very serious invasion that was understood by the victorious side as an unprovoked act of aggression.
But it doesn't make what they did right either.
"Agreed upon by all the in-universe parties"? Not really. From the elven point-of-view, the elves were living in their own country, minding their own affairs, not bothering or helping but also not wanting to be bothered or helped by anyone; yet the humans kept insisting on sending their missionaries and trade caravans within their borders to Spread the Word of their own Maker and further their own trade agenda. The elves wanted none of it, yet humans kept pushing.
According to the Dalish perspective from The Dales Codex Entry: "The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars." The City Elf POV in their own codex: "A small elven raiding party attacked the nearby human village of Red Crossing, an act of anger that prompted the Chantry to retaliate and, with their superior numbers, conquer the Dales."
The humans are the only in-universe party that "agree" that "the conduct and nature of the Dales... as the ones who actually initiated the war and did serious damage in a very serious invasion that was understood by the victorious side[humans] as an unprovoked act of aggression." (God, how melodramatic can you get?) The in-universe Chantry historical documents are the only ones that describe the spark that set off the set off the war as "an attack by the elves on the defenseless village of Red Crossing!" and "the atrocities committed by the elves at Red Crossing" And guess what? This is retroactively described from the point of view of the winners, in a way that conveniently absolves them of moral responsibility in stealing and dissolving a kingdom and displacing and subjugating its subjects.
Whether you believe the missionaries were a sufficient provocation or not, Orlais and the Chantry do not appear to have believed so. Therefore, their actions should be considered in the light of what they believed their position to be- the victims of the Dales.
So they claim.
This is rather aimless. Or rather, not relevant to any point I was making. If anyone is claiming the elves should be happy about their status as the losers, second class citizens, and the most vulnerable of society... well, that person isn't me.
I don't think you realize that the Codex entries on various aspects of Thedas are meant to reflect the collective cultural POV of the in-universe person that wrote it. Just using the City Elf Codex entry as an example, the same codex that talks about the same aspect of Thedas (City Elves) is written from three points of view: the City Elf POV, the Dalish POV, and the Human POV. Each one is different. The City Elf POV is written by a city elven hahren and describes how city elves on the whole view themselves, their history, and their place in the world. The Dalish POV is written by a Dalish Keeper and describes how Dalish on the whole view city elves (which is supported whenever the player visits Dalish Camps). While the codexes are written by in-universe individuals, their view is meant to reflect the collective consciousness of people of their racial/cultural/socio/economic background of this subject.
The fact that the Human POV of the City Elf Codex Entry is written by a human and is extremely haughty, nasty, snide, condescending, dehumanizing of elves, promotes human superiority over elves, and demonizes past elves and non-groveling elves, shows that this is the collective Andrastian human point-of-view regarding city elves, elven history, and even elves on the whole. The fact that the in-universe account is written by a Chantry scholar shows that this is the collective Chantry POV.
I'm not saying that ALL individual humans or Chantry clerics feel this way (we see plenty of individuals in all games that show they don't), but it does seem to be the collective point-of-view.
You keep arguing that the Chantry is not responsible for or making certain that elves are treated as second-class citizens, and I'm using direct evidence from the game to argue that they do. That taking their kingdom, leaving them homeless, then taking them in only under the condition that they convert and live "under their rule," slashing positive elven portrayals in their own history books while perpetuating negative elven portrayals, (thus assuring that common human opinion regarding elves is negative), neglecting to sway the public through teaching or leading by example, actively vilifying elves that don't kowtow to human authority or religious worship, et cetera does indeed make certain that elves remain second-class citizens.
The Chantry is complicit in their plight. Just admit it.
If the Chantry had absolutely no intention of improving assimilation or acceptance of elves, it wouldn't accept elves within the Chantry and as Andrastians. Elves can be religious members, leaders of Chantry institutions (even the magi), even serve in the Chantry's military and wield arms.
WHAT ELVEN PRIESTS OR TEMPLARS HAVE YOU SEEN IN THESE GAMES???
Seriously, if you have seen any elven lay brothers or lay sisters (like Leliana), Chantry clerics, priests, historians, Chanters, Revered Mothers, Templars, or Knight Commanders in any kind in the past games, books, or comics, I would like to see it. If you have seen any Elven NPCs in a priest's robe or a Templar's armor (NOT the Elven Warden), I would like to hear it.
The lack of any of these or mention of these tells me they very likely do not exist. Considering elves are kept subservient and disenfranchised in every other aspect of human life, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same within the Chantry ranks. Just as elves are "allowed" to live in human settlements but must stay segregated and subservient to humans, elves are "allowed" (e.g. forced) to worship the human religion but not have any influence or leadership within the religion ranks. They're allowed to pay taxes and tithes, but never collect them.
A war of self-defense of the faithful is an obvious one. You know, since those heathen elves were the ones sacking and invading Orlais until the March turned things around. Other descriptions can include 'international coalition against rogue power.'
Of course, it's probably inconvenient for you to note that of the three main exalted marches in the past, none of them were genocidal in scope or intent, and two of them were in self-defense to an external aggressor who posed a serious threat. The third was the Exalted March against Tevinter, which was in the context and return to power of one of the most evil ruling classes in Thedas history.
Well, to be exact, there were more exalted marches:
2:10: Against the Dales, after the elves captured Montsimmard the same year.
2:80: Against Tevinter for Starkhaven. That despite Tevinter still being officially a member of the same faith.
4:40-5:10: Four Exalted Marches against Tevinter after the schism. The last one ends with Orlais having to retreat.
7:25: First Exalted March against the Qunari. White Chantry for Rivain, Imperial Chantry for Seheron.
7:52: Second Exalted March against the Qunari. Near loss of Antiva.
7:55: Third and (so far) final Exalted March against the Qunari. The longest one (ends in 7:84).
So we know of 9 Exalted Marches. Four of them could be considered in self-defense (Dales and Qunari), one was intefering in political matters (Starkhaven) and four to conquer an heretic nation.
But never mind the lack of extermination camps, any signs of deliberate famine, forced interbreeding and destruction of the racial group, or other genocidal policies that could warrant being called an 'extermination.'
That I have to agree with. Despite wiping out any reference of Shartan and his elves in the Chant of Light and forbidding their religion, there was no policy to exterminate the elves. In fact, it seems as if in the last moment the Chantry said: "Wait! We're not Tevinter! We can do better!".
That's not to say that the Chantry isn't involved in genocide. However, that happened after the Qunari Wars, not after the Exalted March against the Dales:
It's worth noting, however, that the Kingdom of Rivain immediately violated the treaty. Twice. Once, when the humans of northern Rivain—nearly all practitioners of the Qun and therefore by definition, "Qunari"—refused to leave their homes and go in exile to the islands. And again, when the Rivain Chantry and nationalist forces, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, tried a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves. It's a fortunate mystery that the leaders in Kont-aar did not alert their allies in the Northern Passage, or we'd still be fighting the giants now.
—From The Exalted Marches: An Examination of Chantry Warfare, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar
Orlais and the Chantry are allies. But then, the Chantry is allies with Nevarra, the Anderfels, the Free Marches, Ferelden, and a few others I mentioned. Orlais is the most influential ally of the Chantry, but the Chantry itself is an international institution.
Well, yeah, but the Chantry is pretty biased about its preferences. It doesn't even try to pretend. The very Dragon Age was going to be called the Sun Age, as "a celebration of Orlesian glory". The Chantry higher-ups in occupied Ferelden were also pro-Orlesian, as The Stolen Throne shows us. Last time was in Kirkwall, when Viscoutn Perrin Threnhold threatened Orlesian interests and the Divine used the templars to pressure him. It didin't end well.
So, yeah, the Chantry loves its faithful countries, but it loves Orlais more than the others.
Not slavery per se, it's true, but imprisonment, usually for life, for no crime. Mind rape, however, you're completely unable to escape the truth of. I'd like a source on "predates the Chantry," and even if it does, the Chantry is its biggest practitioner in modern times--additionally, I seriously doubt that it's actually necessary, because death should never be on the cards for the Harrowing to begin with.
Oh, and they sometimes indoctrinate children in their orphanages into becoming templars.
"Indoctrinate" is just another word for educate in the mouth of an opponent.
And yes, the Circles can certainly seem a prison. Especially if you are an unruly and rebellious mage. It wasn't much of a prison for the likes of Wynne, Bethany, Innes or Finn though, because they followed the rules and were rewarded for it.
We have evidence of the Tranquility predating the Chantry from Marethari, who provides us with a ritual that can potentially render Feynriel tranquil. Which means that techniques for rendering mages tranquil, and thus harmless, predates the Chantry.
I expect those who live under the Chantry's governance to have fair representation in the government.
What government? The Chantry is not a nation, it doesn't have a "government". Wherever the Chantry facilities are locacted, the inhabitants of them would be considered citizens of the nation in which the facility is located.
"Indoctrinate" is just another word for educate in the mouth of an opponent.
So it's safe to say, then, that all templars have chosen their path in full and should receive no sympathy for any pressure they were put under in their upbringing? Even though it seems people like Alistair didn't get much of a choice.
And yes, the Circles can certainly seem a prison. Especially if you are an unruly and rebellious mage. It wasn't much of a prison for the likes of Wynne, Bethany, Innes or Finn though, because they followed the rules and were rewarded for it.
Both Wynne and Bethany turned against the Circle's laws in the end, keep in mind. No clue what happened to flash-in-the-pan DLC characters.
We have evidence of the Tranquility predating the Chantry from Marethari, who provides us with a ritual that can potentially render Feynriel tranquil. Which means that techniques for rendering mages tranquil, and thus harmless, predates the Chantry.
Which is not the Rite of Tranquility, and in any case, the Chantry is its main practitioner.
What government? The Chantry is not a nation, it doesn't have a "government". Wherever the Chantry facilities are locacted, the inhabitants of them would be considered citizens of the nation in which the facility is located.
If the Circle exists under Chantry law and Chantry control, it's governed by the Chantry. As such, the mages should have fair representation in this.
So it's safe to say, then, that all templars have chosen their path in full and should receive no sympathy for any pressure they were put under in their upbringing? Even though it seems people like Alistair didn't get much of a choice.
Templar is a career choice. Now given that "career" is probably an unheard of concept in Thedas, this doesn't mean much. Many second and third sons are probably "given" to the Chantry, such as Alistair. Others choose to be Templars. It really isn't either or.
Both Wynne and Bethany turned against the Circle's laws in the end, keep in mind. No clue what happened to flash-in-the-pan DLC characters.
Wynne, and probably not Bethany either, never wanted to dissolve the Circles. They both went against the Templars when they suffered an injustice. And just because you don't play the DLC, does not mean that the characters within doesn't exist. Mages in the Circle have been proven to be allowed to exit the Circles for extended periods of time.
Which is not the Rite of Tranquility, and in any case, the Chantry is its main practitioner.
The CIRCLES are the main practitioner of the Rite. They also practice the Rite in Tevinter. And while what Marethari supplied is not an exact replica of the Rite of Tranquility, it proves beyond a shadow of doubt, that methods of Tranquilizing mages have been in practice long before the Chantry.
If the Circle exists under Chantry law and Chantry control, it's governed by the Chantry. As such, the mages should have fair representation in this.
Which they have. The Grand Enchanter have a seat on the Divine's council.
Wynne, and probably not Bethany either, never wanted to dissolve the Circles. They both went against the Templars when they suffered an injustice. And just because you don't play the DLC, does not mean that the characters within doesn't exist. Mages in the Circle have been proven to be allowed to exit the Circles for extended periods of time.
The CIRCLES are the main practitioner of the Rite. They also practice the Rite in Tevinter. And while what Marethari supplied is not an exact replica of the Rite of Tranquility, it proves beyond a shadow of doubt, that methods of Tranquilizing mages have been in practice long before the Chantry.
Which they have. The Grand Enchanter have a seat on the Divine's council.
Fair representation, not token. Ideally, a number of priests, including Grand Clerics, should be mages, and any position, including the Divine, should be open to mages.
Sometimes. It doesn't mean they're free, or even safe. And such injustices are endemic to the Circle system.
I disagree.
Source on Tevinter using it. And the Chantry is the one who demands the rite be practiced, with the templars being its main hand in doing so.
The fact that Tevinter got runes and magical items of their own. Without Tranquil there would be no magical runes or artefacts in Tevinter.
And the Chantry only demand that dangerous mages being neutralized. The Circles are the ones who provided the Rite of Tranquility. The Circles themselves are probably also all too happy to Tranquilize some antagonistic mages too, since as Tranquil they will form the backbone of the Circle's income.
Fair representation, not token. Ideally, a number of priests, including Grand Clerics, should be mages, and any position, including the Divine, should be open to mages.
Given the limitations imposed upon the mages, what representation they got is completely fair. The mages got better representation at the Divine than many others. There aren't any peasants on the council for instance. Thedas is not a world of social equality, so to demand the Chantry to be such, while ignoring the rest of Thedas, is unreasonable.
The fact that Tevinter got runes and magical items of their own. Without Tranquil there would be no magical runes or artefacts in Tevinter.
And the Chantry only demand that dangerous mages being neutralized. The Circles are the ones who provided the Rite of Tranquility. The Circles themselves are probably also all too happy to Tranquilize some antagonistic mages too, since as Tranquil they will form the backbone of the Circle's income.
They may. Those who would do such things, I will hold accountable as well.
Given the limitations imposed upon the mages, what representation they got is completely fair. The mages got better representation at the Divine than many others. There aren't any peasants on the council for instance. Thedas is not a world of social equality, so to demand the Chantry to be such, while ignoring the rest of Thedas, is unreasonable.
As you yourself so astutely stated, peasants aren't governed by the Chantry. And I don't ignore the rest of Thedas, it's just not immediately relevant to this conversation.
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