273 réponses à ce sujet

[The Ascendant]

TI think my Dalish Mage Inquisitor is going to have a tough time dealing with Orlais and the Chantry.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Dwarves. Minrathous is explicitly said to have the largest surface dwarf community in the world.

So a small community, even if it is larger than others, of Dwarves should supply the largest consumer of magical artefacts and items? Doubtful. The logisitcs alone is unfeasible. Also, there is absolutely no reason the Tevinter wouldn't practice the Rite of Tranquility, since it is an excellent measure of control over lesser mages, something which the Magisters would very much want to use. Nevermind the fact that the Tranquil would be an extremely profitable endeavour aswell.

 

They may. Those who would do such things, I will hold accountable as well.

Im sure they are terrified at the prospect.

 

As you yourself so astutely stated, peasants aren't governed by the Chantry. And I don't ignore the rest of Thedas, it's just not immediately relevant to this conversation.

Indeed they are not. But everything the Chantry does affects them. Yet peasants got no representation anywhere on Thedas, even though they are by far the majority. Yet here we have an extreme minority that ACTUALLY got representation, and a chance to be listend to (if the Grand Enchanter isn't a compelte tool like Fiora). I'd say that their representation is more than adequate.

And how is the Chantry relevant to the topic of Ancient Elves? None of this seems entirely relevant.

[Mistic]

And how is the Chantry relevant to the topic of Ancient Elves? None of this seems entirely relevant.

 

I think it started with the Exalted March against the Dales and now nobody is talking about the elves anymore. Sigh.

[LobselVith8]

I think my Dalish Mage Inquisitor is going to have a tough time dealing with Orlais and the Chantry.

I see what you mean. A history as enemies and antagonists toward one another does make it awkward for an elven Inquisitor to work with them, from Cassandra's pseudo-Chantry Inquisition to the possible members of the court who may be vying for our favor during the crisis with the Breach.

I think my Dalish mage is going to have a difficult time dealing with everyone. Using elven terms, referring to spirits instead of Spirits and Demons, following the Creators, having a unique cultural perspective as compared to the Andrastians who may look at certain issues in the same light (like the view of magic).

[Senya]

Hey, Lobsel, it's nice to see you. I missed your input on these forums, even if we're usually on opposite sides.

 

A Dalish Inquisitor will have an interesting viewpoint. Certainly, there will be cultural differences and past grievances. He or she might even end up having their historical viewpoint challenged.

 

It does make a degree of sense for the Ancient Elves to have been an unpleasant lot. If the Masked Empire is any indication, we may find a lot of skeletons in Arlathan's and the Dales' closet.

[myahele]

I remember somebody had a theory about Ancient Elven dreamers creating the Golden City (in the comic 1 dreamer was able to make a fortress complete with demon servants dragons) and that was where elves in Uthenera would live while studying, speaking with other elves there, etc.

Like in many cities there are prisons.... what IF the old gods souls/mind are imprisoned there? And that ancient elves where task as their jailors?

Avernus did mention hearing the call coming from the black city. And with elf servants killing those in Uthenera it'll mean that nobody is guarding these imprisoned gods or maintaining the city; hence it's slow decay.

[Xilizhra]

Hey, Lobsel, it's nice to see you. I missed your input on these forums, even if we're usually on opposite sides.

 

A Dalish Inquisitor will have an interesting viewpoint. Certainly, there will be cultural differences and past grievances. He or she might even end up having their historical viewpoint challenged.

 

It does make a degree of sense for the Ancient Elves to have been an unpleasant lot. If the Masked Empire is any indication, we may find a lot of skeletons in Arlathan's and the Dales' closet.

Why should Dalish have their historical viewpoint challenged any more than humans?

[Senya]

Why should Dalish have their historical viewpoint challenged any more than humans?

True. They both might. But, the Dalish historical viewpoint is a major driving force for most Dalish, even more than humans from what I've seen, though I can be wrong.

[Assassino01]

1: So in that regard the Chantry is pretty much better than any other organization and nation, except the Grey Wardens, since they actually did wage war for others than themselves. War is by its very function usually self-serving. To fault the Chantry for this... Well... Let's just say that is being wilfully dishonest.

 

I'm not faulting the Chantry for it. I'm simplt pointing out that the Chantry is driven more by political concerns and by maintaining and strenghtening their own power and influence, than by matters of faith. And that the Chantry's intrests are tied to the intrests of Orlais.

 

 

2: No, they do not practice slavery. No, they do not practice "mind-rape". No, they do make "thousands of drug addicts". First of all, the Circles are NOT slavery, despite what some may say. We could have a lengthy discussion about jsut exactly why it is wrong to attempt to label it as such, but none of us got the time for that, and it is off-topic. No, the Circle does not practice "mind-rape". The Rite of Tranquility predates the Chantry, probably even the Circles, and it is a very neccesary function which lessens the inherent danger that ALL mages pose. It is offered as an alternative to death, so that those who fears death so much, may choose another fate. "Not much of a choice" you might say, then death row inmates shouldn't get to choose between death and luxury. Those who undergoes the Rite of Tranquility does so for a reason. And no, the Chantry does not deliberately make drug addicts out of their Templars. The Templars themselves choose to do it, because that is the only way they can get their powers.

 

They practice Slavery. While the Mage situation is arguably slavery in itself, the situation with the tranquil is without a doubt slavery. The tranquil will, after being mind-raped (which is it, to put it in crude terms) spend the rest of their life working with dangerous enchantments, and lyrium, in order to provide the Chantry with income. They will recieve no wage, they are not allowed to leave, they will obey any order and are possessions of the Circles and the Chantry.

 

If that is not slavery then nothing is.

 

That the rite of tranquility predates the circle does not make it any less wrong. And I won't even begin to debate why it is wrong. Because if you can't see why it is wrong to remove a person's ability to feel emotion, and their free will, then something is wrong with your moral compass. 

 

The Templars are made to take lyrium in order for the Chantry (who controls the lyrium trade) to keep them under control. This is state often in the games. Gameplay has shown us that lyrium is not required for Templar skills. 

 

3: There was a Dwarven member of the Chantry clergy in Orzammar so.... While we may not have been exposed to an Elven or Dwarven member of the clergy of higher rank, there is no evidence at all, that points toward it is impossible for one to reach such a rank. Just that it is probably rare. For cultural and societal reasons.

 

 

The dwarf in Orzammar is the lone none human member of the Chantry. And he was likely only a dwarf because Orzammar was never ever going to let a human set up a Chantry in their city. The Chantry would have known this.

 

No elves have been shown to exist in the clergy, ever, in any Dragon Age works, at all. That speaks for itself. 

 

4: Why would you demilitarize mages? You cannot take away their magic without turning them tranquil, and why would the Chantry wish that? The Chantry does not wish to be overly cruel to the mages, and knows that Tranquility is not much of a mercy. Also, to allow mages to serve in the military gives a great tactical and strategic advantage to the Chantry. Again, to hold the Chantry responsible for holding the best weapons possible in their arsenal is being quite dishonest, since ANY organization and/or nation would do so.

 

 

I'm not blaming the Chantry for not demilitarizing mages. I'm just saying they don't do it. Since someone claimed they did. 

 

5: Yes. So? If they let the Circle mages fight for a nation, that means this nation will owe the Chantry. Do I need to explain how much political value this holds?

 

 

Nope. Again. Just replying to someone who claimed the Chantry kept the mages out of secular wars.

 

6: One could also say such claim is bullshit. Every source we have points towards the time BEFORE the Circles (and after the fall of organized Tevinter magic) as a time of great magical turmoil. The Circles fixed that, and since their inception magic has posed a significantly smaller threat to the common man.

 

 

Eh, given that amount of stories about demons, possessions, and the sheer amount of demons we encounter during the games, I'd say this is bullshit. The Circles have only served to make the problem larger. The mages in the Circle are treated in such a way that they become radical and rebellious, while mages outside the Circle recieve less training and become more desperate. Both situation leads to an increase in possession and summoning of demons. 

 

The Rivaini, Dalish and Tevinter seems to have comparativly small problems with this. 

 

7: Political stability. Sanctuary. Neutrality. Mediation. The list goes on and on and on as for what the Chantry provides. No service is free however, so why do you expect the Chantry to provide any of it as such?

 

 

The Chantry only provides political stability in that it keeps Orlais as the most powerful nation in Thedas.  

Sanctuary? Sure, if you're a human with money. 

Neutrality? The Chantry does not provide this.

Mediation? To some extent. 

 

I wouldn't expect the Chantry to provide anything for free. It is what it is. 

[Mistic]

True. They both might. But, the Dalish historical viewpoint is a major driving force for most Dalish, even more than humans from what I've seen, though I can be wrong.

 

I think you're right on the money. The Dalish seem to be more interested in their history than humans in theirs, and it's in their motto too. After all, they call themselves "keepers of the lost lore". The humans, on the other hand, don't care much about it and it can be pointed out to Sarel by a Dalish Warden, which disappoints him a little. Even the City Elves are understandably more worried about their present day struggles than about their past.

[LobselVith8]

Hey, Lobsel, it's nice to see you. I missed your input on these forums, even if we're usually on opposite sides.

 

A Dalish Inquisitor will have an interesting viewpoint. Certainly, there will be cultural differences and past grievances. He or she might even end up having their historical viewpoint challenged.

 

Thanks, it's nice to see you, too.

 

Well, it's likely the Dalish Inquisitor isn't going to adhere to the Andrastian version of the fall of the Dales, and certain places may have significant importance to the elven protagonist, like the Emerald Graves (as opposed to a main character who isn't elven, and therefore may not have family who perished in the struggle for the Dales). Also, it might be uncomfortable to be surrounded by people who follow a faith you blame for the fall and occupation of your homeland, so it's likely a traditional Dalish protagonist won't ask for any blessings from the Chantry clergy, might have issue with what Cassandra and the Inquisition represent, and may take umbrage if some Andrastians want to mold him into some Chantry symbol - given the possible implications of the 'Coronation' picture (the one with Cassandra and Leliana in attendance).

 

It does make a degree of sense for the Ancient Elves to have been an unpleasant lot. If the Masked Empire is any indication, we may find a lot of skeletons in Arlathan's and the Dales' closet.

 

Well, as Merrill points out, the Sabrae clan did contemplate the possibility that the Arlathan elves could have summoned Audacity, so I don't think the Dalish believe it's implausible for their ancestors to have been flawed.

[The Ascendant]

One major reason why I going for Dalish Mage Inquisitor is that elves are the second most common people in Thedas who have suffered a great deal. Being a mage will offer me insight into the plight that mages face as well as understand the threat magic can pose. Being in the Dales will also be poignant for our Inquisitor, as he iis working with people he largely blamed for the current plight of his culture. Finally the last reason is because with the Fade tearing and magic growing more dangerous he wants to uncover how this was possible and who would do such as thing. Also elves have more magical artefacts than other races and hopefully I will have access to some interesting toys. I am also a history nerd andI rreally want to learn more about the Ancient Elves.
While the Dalish Origins was good in the first game, I didn't really learn anything that the other Origins didn't find out. Except for Tamlen's fate and the city underground. Hopefully being Dalish will be more significant in this game. For me Origins was more about being a Grey Warden and killing the Darkspawn. Other major issues were only briefly explored while DA2 emphasizes the tensions between mages and templars and a reminder of the Qunari.

[Mistic]

While the Dalish Origins was good in the first game, I didn't really learn anything that the other Origins didn't find out. Except for Tamlen's fate and the city underground. Hopefully being Dalish will be more significant in this game. For me Origins was more about being a Grey Warden and killing the Darkspawn. Other major issues were only briefly explored while DA2 emphasizes the tensions between mages and templars and a reminder of the Qunari.

 

It's true that the Dalish origin was lacking in that regard. The rest of the origins were tied to the main plot in one way or another. However, it seems that since then Bioware has tried to correct that. In Witch Hunt, the Dalish oeigin was the most meaningful one, and it was mentioned several times in DA2 too, only behind Warden Amell.

[Senya]

Thanks, it's nice to see you, too.

 

Well, it's likely the Dalish Inquisitor isn't going to adhere to the Andrastian version of the fall of the Dales, and certain places may have significant importance to the elven protagonist, like the Emerald Graves (as opposed to a main character who isn't elven, and therefore may not have family who perished in the struggle for the Dales). Also, it might be uncomfortable to be surrounded by people who follow a faith you blame for the fall and occupation of your homeland, so it's likely a traditional Dalish protagonist won't ask for any blessings from the Chantry clergy, might have issue with what Cassandra and the Inquisition represent, and may take umbrage if some Andrastians want to mold him into some Chantry symbol - given the possible implications of the 'Coronation' picture (the one with Cassandra and Leliana in attendance).

 

 

Well, as Merrill points out, the Sabrae clan did contemplate the possibility that the Arlathan elves could have summoned Audacity, so I don't think the Dalish believe it's implausible for their ancestors to have been flawed.

 

Yes, I can see how the Dalish viewpoint will form the Dalish Inquisitor's opinions and actions. I would be disappointed if it didn't. I suspect that the Coronation picture highlights a possible path. A path I'd like, but not one I can see you taking in your first few playthroughs.

 

As for the Dalish believing their ancestors are flawed... Yes, I can see them acknowledging their ancestors weren't perfect. Or, conversely, the Arlathan elves could have treated Audacity like a trained beast, fitting the Dalish view of spirits I saw floating around here earlier. I haven't found an exact quote, though.

 

However, a big part in the way the Dalish see the world is that their ancestors were unjustly driven from their lands due to the humans' intolerance. If it is revealed that the elves were had an equal or greater part in starting the war as the Orlesians, it could challenge the way they view the world.

[Karach_Blade]

My Dalish are going to need therapy if they get to learn about those skeletons in their ancestors' closets. Particularly the slavery.

[LobselVith8]

Yes, I can see how the Dalish viewpoint will form the Dalish Inquisitor's opinions and actions. I would be disappointed if it didn't. I suspect that the Coronation picture highlights a possible path. A path I'd like, but not one I can see you taking in your first few playthroughs.

 

Probably not. It's likely to be a matter of focusing on closing the Breach, even if it means working with members of an enemy organization.

 

As for the Dalish believing their ancestors are flawed... Yes, I can see them acknowledging their ancestors weren't perfect. Or, conversely, the Arlathan elves could have treated Audacity like a trained beast, fitting the Dalish view of spirits I saw floating around here earlier. I haven't found an exact quote, though.

 

WoT does read that the Dalish don't use magic that involves spirits because they view all spirits as dangerous, so the Sabrae clan seemed to acknowledge that their ancestors could have crossed a line that they traditionally don't. It reads, "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104)

 

It's also made me wonder how the encounter with Cole will be handled, since I'm interested in playing as a traditional Dalish mage.

 

However, a big part in the way the Dalish see the world is that their ancestors were unjustly driven from their lands due to the humans' intolerance. If it is revealed that the elves were had an equal or greater part in starting the war as the Orlesians, it could challenge the way they view the world.

 

I'm not so sure. We have Dalish who don't take umbrage at humans, but still retain their cultural and religious views; it wouldn't change the necessity of the Dalish to live nomadic lifestyles, to protect their mages, to maintain their lore and way of life. Perhaps an Inquisition lead by one of the People might start changing things, however.

[Mistic]

WoT does read that the Dalish don't use magic that involves spirits because they view all spirits as dangerous, so the Sabrae clan seemed to acknowledge that their ancestors could have crossed a line that they traditionally don't. It reads, "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104)

 

It's also made me wonder how the encounter with Cole will be handled, since I'm interested in playing as a traditional Dalish mage.

 

But it begs the question: where did that viewpoint come from? Fearing all spirits is understandable, but avoiding the spirit school completely? That has to have a good reason.

-The prohibition comes from Arlathan times. Ancient elves never liked the spirit world very much. However, given their magical prowess and the fact that the Dalish themselves wondered if their ancestors summoned Audacity, I doubt it.

-The prohibition comes from the Dales. The new elven society tried to impose some rules to make magic safer, learning from the Magisters' mistakes. Andrastian influence could be involved.

-The prohibition comes from the Dalish themselves. Just like the tattoos, it's an original part of their culture. They are nomads scattered everywhere, and everything that can reduce the danger for the clans, such as avoiding possession as much as possible, it's necessary.

 

Also, it could be tied to a traumatic even. A nasty demon attack, a summoning that ended in disaster or mass possession in the past may have taught the elves a hard lesson. It could have happened in any timeframe, mind you (Arlathan, Dales, Dalish).

[twincast]

But it begs the question: where did that viewpoint come from? Fearing all spirits is understandable, but avoiding the spirit school completely? That has to have a good reason.

-The prohibition comes from Arlathan times. Ancient elves never liked the spirit world very much. However, given their magical prowess and the fact that the Dalish themselves wondered if their ancestors summoned Audacity, I doubt it.

-The prohibition comes from the Dales. The new elven society tried to impose some rules to make magic safer, learning from the Magisters' mistakes. Andrastian influence could be involved.

-The prohibition comes from the Dalish themselves. Just like the tattoos, it's an original part of their culture. They are nomads scattered everywhere, and everything that can reduce the danger for the clans, such as avoiding possession as much as possible, it's necessary.

 

Also, it could be tied to a traumatic even. A nasty demon attack, a summoning that ended in disaster or mass possession in the past may have taught the elves a hard lesson. It could have happened in any timeframe, mind you (Arlathan, Dales, Dalish).

It raises the question.

 

Anyway, those are all valid theories, but my own preferred one is specifically that spirits Arlathan recklessly summoned in the war against Tevinter played a significant role in their downfall.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

My suspicion is that it's a more recent taboo, probably from the Dalish. Their reason is not that it's morally wrong, but that' it's dangerous and the clans are the most vulnerable of the 3 Elvhen societies. Plus apparently the modern day elves believe that the Arlathan elves communed with spirits much more often than them, but they had much more magical knowledge. Plus, Imshael was trapped in an elven spirit trap. It doesn't say anywhere how old it is, but it's not inconceivable it's from Arlathan's days given that it's so close to the Eluvian network.

[CapivaRasgor]

Curious how this thread went from speculation on the Ancient Elves, then went to who was the victim in the Dales war and a debate between pro and anti-Chantry..

Anyhow, my thoughts on the ancient elves is that they may have had a hand on the corruption of the Golden City, didn't Corypheus mention that it was already corrupt by the time the magisters made it there? The elves are the only other mortal race I can see with the means to do so, thats assuming mortal races were even responsible for the corruption in the first place.

[Nyeredzi]

He was the only elven child raised among human children in an orphanage of the blind. The care takers there took it easy on him by telling him and the other blind children that he was human.

 

Brother Genitivi: "What can you tell me about, er, the "books" you've written?"

 

Blind Elf: "Sera, my message is simple. Dwarves, Elves, and all kinds of Qunari stink! And I hate em! Especially the knife ears!"

 

Brother Genitivi: "You mentioned the elves, what problems do you have with them exactly?"

 

Blind Elf: "Where would I start? Well first of all, they are lazy good for nothing tricksters. Big eyed, big eared swindlers! And them ears....did I mention the ears?"

 

Brother Genitivi: "Yes, I believe you did Sera."

 

Blind Elf: "Matter of fact my friend Henric told me one of them knife ears came by his farm to take his sister out, but he stood up and said, "look here knife ear. That there is my girl! If Anyone has sex with my sister, it's gonna be me!"

 

Brother Genitivi: "You never left this property have you Sera."

 

Blind  Elf: "No Sera, not in many years."

 

Brother Genitivi: "What if I were to tell you that you are an elf?"

 

Blind Elf: "SERA!! Listen! I'm gonna make it clear to you! I am in no way shape or form, involved in any knife eardom!!! Understand?!"

 

Brother Genitivi: "Yes Sera, but, er"

 

Blind Elf: "But nothing!"

 

......

 

Blind Elf: "Now if you excuse me, I have important matters to attend to. Why don't you bring your codex, journal over there if you want to see some real truth!"

 

We walk to the market, and I talk with Nathaniel, a commoner from the locals.

 

Brother Genitivi: "Sera, aren't you afraid? Why not just tell him he is an elf?"

 

Nathaniel: "Listen Brother, if I tell him he's an elf he's probably kill himself. Ha! To him it will be one less knife ear around. His hatred and commitment is that deep."

 

Brother Genitivi: "I'm overwhelmed by the irony.."

 

We are interrupted by voices of angry human men. The Blind Elf is in trouble.

 

Humans: "What's that knife ear?!!"

 

Humans: "Go on, we don't like any of your kind around here"

 

Humans: "Yeah you better get out of here before something bad happen..."

 

Blind Elf: "That's right, That's right!"

 

Humans: "........."

 

Blind Elf: "Tell that knife ear! Beat, drag, em!!"

 

Humans: "What in Andraste?...."

 

Nathaniel: "Come on man, we gotta go"

 

Blind Elf: "Oh Nathaniel! There's a knife ear around here.. Go back to the Alienage where you belong!"

 

Brother Genitivi: "........."

 

With fortune, we managed to take the Blind Elf safely, and escape the situation.

[The Ascendant]

I am looking forward to playing as an elf mage Inquisitor. The new character designs look much better than the previous games, based on what I have seen in Sera and Solas.

[MrMrPendragon]

Hopefully playing as a Dalish Inquisitor will reveal new lore info, and lots of it.

 

I really really REALLY hope we don't get a bunch of riddles or vague info about the elves.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Hopefully playing as a Dalish Inquisitor will reveal new lore info, and lots of it.

 

I really really REALLY hope we don't get a bunch of riddles or vague info about the elves.

I really don't hope that playing as a Dalish gives access to exclusive content or lore snippets.

 

I hope that the different races offer different perspectives and context, but the lore should be available to all the races.