273 réponses à ce sujet

[DuskWanderer]

I'm totally going with elves used blood magic to achieve immortality. If I remember correctly, you can use blood magic to do that. Simply "being around humans for so long" couldn't just ruin immortality. And remember, according to Merrill, once, all El'vhan had the gift. 

[Das Tentakel]

We could go with that. We could also go on to slavery, a legalized caste system, or even.... socialism and enforced collectivism with anti-individuality programs. (Gasp!) Elves have it rough, but there are a number of things they are permitted to do and many things they are not legally compelled to do. If just the Chantry took a hard line on elves, their situation could get far, far worse- even just blocking the elves from being Andrastian would be a blow to what integration they have.

 

You could even have human kingdoms start programs with the explicit goal of destroying the city elves as a polity. This doesn't need to be outright violent genocide: it could be as basic as breaking apart the alienages and scattering the elves across the nation, or even 'reforms' such as reverse miscigenation laws. Ban elf-elf unions, encourage and only permit human-elf unions, and sterilize elven children: in a few generations, you won't even have an elven population. Remember, eugenics used to be a progressive and well-meaning policy proposal: It wouldn't stretch plausibility for some well-meaning humans to believe that the best way to integrate the city elves is to discard the elven baggage.

 

Ah yes, reality-based worldbuilding logic. Given that Elves are considered attractive by humans and human-Elven hybrids are effectively human, it's rather unlikely any city Elves would have been left. In fact, it's even unlikely there would have been ANY Elves left by Andraste's time. Rather, they would have been absorbed into a mass of 'human' slaves (and maybe freedmen, if the Empire had such a thing).

Best not go there .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's hard to tell exactly what was a truth and what was a lie when it comes to Felassan, but I should mention (for whatever that is worth) in one of his flashback conversations with Briala he mentions that their ancestors were immortal.

[cjones91]

I think it's very likely the ancient elves practiced blood magic and had enslaved other elves, history tends be color one side or the other depending on who is telling it.

[AltanIV]

But we know he's not Dalish.

 

And yet it doesn't actually mean that he ever was a City Elf. He knows more about Arlathan than any other dalish elves we've ever met, he seems to know Imshael personnaly. (as in, it's not their first meeting.) He could actually be from a clan that never was dalish to begin with. Just guessing. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Of course he's not a city elf. I didn't mean he was. He was something else. Initially I thought he may have been one of the ancient elves himself, because he describes Arlathan like he was there but I suspect instead he just works for someone who was. I also assumed his "clan" was just a euphemism for Fen'Harel and his other minions.

[AresKeith]

And yet it doesn't actually mean that he ever was a City Elf. He knows more about Arlathan than any other dalish elves we've ever met, he seems to know Imshael personnaly. (as in, it's not their first meeting.) He could actually be from a clan that never was dalish to begin with. Just guessing. 

 

Iirc I thought he was Dalish, just doesn't consider himself Dalish anymore

[Jedi Master of Orion]

No, I think the dalish appearance was a disguise. Briala asks him what he thinks the Dalish would do if they found out he was a spy.

[The Ascendant]

One thing I've always wondered why do the Dalish acknowledge Flemeth? Do they know what she is? If so as a future Dalish Mage Inquisitor any clans I meet will share the information.
I also hope the gathering of the clans happens as well.

[Halfdan The Menace]

Perhaps the ancient elves possess some sort of dark magic, with the eluvian mirrors, demons, etc. They could even related to the Old Gods, that they were originally mortals, and through a discovery in powerful magic they became dragons.

[myahele]

Her words do carry weight, despite it being all cryptic. Also, dealing with her has it's benefits...as well as detriments. She helped the Warden , Hawke, Marethari, Maric etc and they all end up disappear and/or dead

[The Ascendant]

I hope we can visit the Arlathan forest in a DLC. I believe it is located between Tevinter and Antiva. Maybe we can rediscover the city.

[fighterchick]

I've reread the Masked Empire and I was very intrigued to discover their civilization wasn't a utopia. Don't get me wrong based on Felassan's description the city of Arlathan was magnificent. A shame the dreamers who ruled it were no better than Tevinter magisters. I suppose it brings a sense or realism to this picturesque view of the ancient elves. I wonder how closely the Dales emulated Arlathan. Playing as a future Dalish Mage Inquisitor I am going to be very interested in uncovering the secrets of the past.
So what do you guys think of the elves of old?

 

I loved finding out about the elves of old and was glad that they weren't the perfect little elves the Dalish always seem to envision.  It makes sense to a certain degree-the system that they had in place.  I don't see how a utopia could be achieved without someone being on the bottom and those people being very unhappy about it.  The only way people can be truly equal seems to be a society like the Qun, and I'm not really sure that's any better.

 

I hope we get even more information in the game since Felassan isn't the most trustworthy source of information, though I do buy what he was saying about the ancient elves.

[Nalia_dArnise]

I don't belive Felassan's words very much. Because Tevinter and Orlais attitude to the elves is reflexion of mentality of these countries, their agressiveness. Tevbinter and Orlais, they both must be always in war with someone, always to beat someone, even the one's citizen's. That's their politic, their culture. But Arlathan wasn't agressive to humans. Maybe arrogant, maybe stern, but agressive? No. I can hardly imagine that Atlatan nobility enslave, butcher, sacrifice it's own commoners (so the people of Orlais and Tevinter do), but spare aliens-- humans. There is no logic at all.

[The Ascendant]

We have some level of authenticity because Imshael recognised and acknowledges Felassan. Of course whether you can trust a Forbidden One is debatable. I believe some of what he says but I add a pinch of salt to be safe.

[Gwydden]

I don't belive Felassan's words very much. Because Tevinter and Orlais attitude to the elves is reflexion of mentality of these countries, their agressiveness. Tevbinter and Orlais, they both must be always in war with someone, always to beat someone, even the one's citizen's. That's their politic, their culture. But Arlathan wasn't agressive to humans. Maybe arrogant, maybe stern, but agressive? No. I can hardly imagine that Atlatan nobility enslave, butcher, sacrifice it's own commoners (so the people of Orlais and Tevinter do), but spare aliens-- humans. There is no logic at all.

I'm not surprised the ancient elves didn't have a perfect utopian society like the Dalish claim, as absolutely no society in Thedas we've seen thus far shows that a utopia can exist. Every person is flawed, every society has problems, and every authoritive person and structure has greed and corruption of some kind.

 

Still, I liked to believe that the elves of old were on the whole more calm, pensive and introspective than the more hot-blooded and aggressive humans, like the stories say. Again, more to do with difference in cultural values than "elves are inherently more peaceful while humans are inherently more warlike." Since we've seen that modern elves are people just like everyone else, I think that would be ridiculous.

 

However, if it's revealed they were this slavery empire that used blood magic to fuel their "immortality" and went around oppressing and enslaving others, and it's "revealed" that they were no better than the Tevinter Imperium that usurped them, I'm going to blow a gasket. Anti-elf sentiment is already strong enough without BioWare throwing more fuel for the fire.

Even before the "reveal" I found it hard to believe elves were any gentler than humans. They were both empires, and that word carries meaning. And I find it even harder to believe Tevinter (the young, upstart empire founded by a bunch of newcomers who just a little while ago had a primitive society and no magic to speak of) attacked Arlathan (the several millenia old, better established, much more powerful empire) instead of the other way around. Tevinter attacking Arlathan is idiotic. Arlathan attacking Tevinter is what you would expect from a likely expansionist, xenophobic empire (notice Tevinter, the newcomer, had much better relationships with the dwarves). What would personally cause me to "blow a gasket" was Bioware making Arlathan look like the innocent victim because "elven oppression!" and "of course Tevinter/humans are to blame for everything that goes wrong in this world, duh!". Elves don't need more cuddling. If anything, they could use a good slap of reality across the face.

 

I even have the lurking suspicion (although admittedly this is going really deep into speculation territory) that dalish myths about Fen'Harel are actually and allegory for one of the "Creators", that is, ancient elven aristocracy, playing both Arlathan and Tevinter for his own benefit.

[The Ascendant]

I never did understand how Tevinter was able to defeat the older more established and magically proficient Arlathan, unless the Imperium had access to greater magic or inside help. Remember the Elven artifacts in the ruins in the Brecilian? Hopefully we will uncover more information in Inquisition. Especially since my Inquisitor is a Dalish Mage.

[Gwydden]

I never did understand how Tevinter was able to defeat the older more established and magically proficient Arlathan, unless the Imperium had access to greater magic or inside help. Remember the Elven artifacts in the ruins in the Brecilian? Hopefully we will uncover more information in Inquisition. Especially since my Inquisitor is a Dalish Mage.

The arguments we've heard about it in game usually come from the dalish, who if I remembered correctly claim Tevinter managed it using "the blackest of magics", which I assume is blood magic.

 

However, there are issues with that theory. For once, the elves themselves likely used blood magic too. And also, blood magic is not so ridiculously overpowered as to turn a bunch of upstarts into unbeatable supervillains. But apparently, the same magic that allows you to defeat an empire that has been around for millennia and it's known for its proficiency in magic (we have seen plenty of evidence Tevinter never got even close to Arlathan's mastery of it) is not enough to help you fend an invasion of fur clad barbarians and a slave rebellion before they destroy most of your empire close to its peak.

 

A quick disclaimer: I like elves. I would even be willing to support them. But that doesn't mean I will withhold criticism.

[myahele]

I wouldn't be surprised if there was infighting amongst ancient elves. If Arlathan was similar to Orlais then wouldn't it make sense for some elves to use and manipulate an upstart Tevinter empire?

I'm sure things went out of hand in the end though.

Due to their immortality or long lifespan they have all the time in world to decide on things such as war, politics, etc. Whereas humans must act quickly lest they die of old age or diseases.

[The Ascendant]

Bu does this discount the theory of some form of collaboration with the Imperium? I agree that blood magic is potent but it isn't all powerful. I agree that it wouldn't turn a tribe of savages into a global superpower unless they had someone to properly teach them. Possible elven traitor? Any ideas?

[The Ascendant]

I wouldn't be surprised if there was infighting amongst ancient elves. If Arlathan was similar to Orlais then wouldn't it make sense for some elves to use and manipulate an upstart Tevinter empire?
I'm sure things went out of hand in the end though.
Due to their immortality or long lifespan they have all the time in world to decide on things such as war, politics, etc. Whereas humans must act quickly lest they die of old age or diseases.

Interesting. The Ancient Elves manipulating the Imperium into fighting for them.

[Gwydden]

But this discount the theory of some form of collaboration with the Imperium? I agree that blood magic is potent but it isn't all powerful. I agree that it wouldn't turn a tribe of savages into a global superpower unless they had someone to properly teach them. Possible elven traitor? Any ideas?

Just speculation, but I can think of a few things. Again, I suspect the whole story of Fen'Harel has something to do with it. Maybe the guy played Arlathan and Tevinter against each other, as I said. Maybe the elves were fighting each other and weakened, possibly because of him. This would fit the comparison made in TME, where prolonging the Orlesian Civil War to help the elves is compared to Fen'Harel's actions. He may have actually helped Tevinter to even the odds.

 

There could also have been an uprising from elven commoners. They were already killing dreamers in their sleep by the end of the war. There's also the issue of who exactly taught magic to humans. Not just blood magic, since I seem to recall there weren't any human mages when they first arrived to Thedas. The usual suspects are the Forbidden Ones, the Old Gods, and yes, the elves.

[myahele]

What if there are lesser elven kingdoms that we don't know about? We know elves populated Thedas, but that doesn't mean Arlathan was the only empires/kingdom. Empires conquer other nations and assimilate them to thier society, so clearly Arlathan conquered other Elven nations.

According to World of Thedas: Elven ruins in Brecilian Forest predate the founding of Arlathan.

That and there's the cliché of short lived races reproducing and advancing faster than the long lived and stagnant superior beings.