273 réponses à ce sujet

[The Ascendant]

What if there are lesser elven kingdoms that we don't know about? We know elves populated Thedas, but that doesn't mean Arlathan was the only empires/kingdom. Empires conquer other nations and assimilate them to thier society, so clearly Arlathan conquered other Elven nations.
According to World of Thedas: Elven ruins in Brecilian Forest predate the founding of Arlathan.
That and there's the cliché of short lived races reproducing and advancing faster than the long lived and stagnant superior beings.

Interesting. So where are the other ruins? I wondered why they gave the elves the Dales? Was there a kingdom there? Did they build up from scratch? Remember their was an elven Colosseum in Emprise de Lion.

[Mistic]

Even before the "reveal" I found it hard to believe elves were any gentler than humans. They were both empires, and that word carries meaning. And I find it even harder to believe Tevinter (the young, upstart empire founded by a bunch of newcomers who just a little while ago had a primitive society and no magic to speak of) attacked Arlathan (the several millenia old, better established, much more powerful empire) instead of the other way around. Tevinter attacking Arlathan is idiotic. Arlathan attacking Tevinter is what you would expect from a likely expansionist, xenophobic empire (notice Tevinter, the newcomer, had much better relationships with the dwarves).

 

Why is that? History is full of examples when young barbarian tribes, normally nomads, attacked established empires that had grown soft and didn't take good care of their borders, especially if they were facing internal unrest too. And even if you want to keep it Thedosian, Andraste's and Maferath's campaign against Tevinter is precisely an example of that.

 

What if there are lesser elven kingdoms that we don't know about? We know elves populated Thedas, but that doesn't mean Arlathan was the only empires/kingdom. Empires conquer other nations and assimilate them to thier society, so clearly Arlathan conquered other Elven nations.

According to World of Thedas: Elven ruins in Brecilian Forest predate the founding of Arlathan.

 

I didn't remember that. Well, it makes sense. I mean, empires can only happen when a power overcomes the others. A bit surprising for those who imagine nations as monolithic groups that were born that way. I mean, Italy had more countries before Rome conquered them all, China was divided in warring states, the Yamato made war to have control of Japan, Germany was united under Prussia, etc. Very rare is the case when a single city-state expands through uninhabited land to found an empire of their people.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Founding of Arlathan is the start of the timeline in WoT. It is the start of the earliest in universe calenders. Essentially it is first event in recorded history. The only things we know about the time before that is that before that elves lived throughout Thedas, including what would later be called the Brecllian Forest according to Hahren Sarel.

 

Hahren Paivel also says that the elves used to be "as varied as the shemlen, though fewer in number." I had always believed the Elvhenan may not have been a single unified kingdom but several different possibly very different groups of elves, of which Arlathan was the strongest. Felassan's revelation seems to confirm that it was a single empire, so perhaps they conquered the others in ages long past.

 

The Imperium attacking Arlathan is not a surprise though. It's not as if the Tevinter Imperium was a fledgling nation during the Siege of Aralthan. It had existed for over 200 years by that point. And even before that the priests of the Cult of the Old Gods had taught the three Nerominan kingdoms that would eventually unify to form the Imperium the power of blood magic four centuries before that.

[Morroian]

I even have the lurking suspicion (although admittedly this is going really deep into speculation territory) that dalish myths about Fen'Harel are actually and allegory for one of the "Creators", that is, ancient elven aristocracy, playing both Arlathan and Tevinter for his own benefit.

 

IMHO at this point its abundantly clear that the tevinter myths and the elven myths originate from the same source.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Why? The only thing they have in common is that they are polytheistic pantheons that were supposedly associated with the magical inaccessable place in the center of the fade.

[Nalia_dArnise]

 

Even before the "reveal" I found it hard to believe elves were any gentler than humans. 

 

 

But they WERE. Situation: dangerous aliens come to the continent. Dangerous because they make elves mortal with the only fact of their being (or so elves thing). What do elves? Try to wipe out, to enslave this aliens? No, they give them the most part of Thedas. Let them be if they let be elves like they want. I can hardly imagine that nation that do such peaceful politics to aliens toture it's own kind like Orlesian toture elves. So I can't beleve that Arlathan nobility was no better than Orlais nobility. Another kind of problems, of oppression-- yes. Copy of Orlais or Tevinter-- no. There is no logic! (or some kind of a crazy one...) 

[Dean_the_Young]

 

 

 

 

But they WERE. Situation: dangerous aliens come to the continent. Dangerous because they make elves mortal with the only fact of their being (or so elves thing). What do elves? Try to wipe out, to enslave this aliens? No, they give them the most part of Thedas. Let them be if they let be elves like they want. I can hardly imagine that nation that do such peaceful politics to aliens toture it's own kind like Orlesian toture elves. So I can't beleve that Arlathan nobility was no better than Orlais nobility. Another kind of problems, of oppression-- yes. Copy of Orlais or Tevinter-- no. There is no logic! (or some kind of a crazy one...) 

 

 

Who says they didn't try to wipe out or enslave the aliens? Or that they 'gave' them most of Thedas?

[Mistic]

But they WERE. Situation: dangerous aliens come to the continent. Dangerous because they make elves mortal with the only fact of their being (or so elves thing). What do elves? Try to wipe out, to enslave this aliens? No, they give them the most part of Thedas. Let them be if they let be elves like they want. I can hardly imagine that nation that do such peaceful politics to aliens toture it's own kind like Orlesian toture elves. So I can't beleve that Arlathan nobility was no better than Orlais nobility. Another kind of problems, of oppression-- yes. Copy of Orlais or Tevinter-- no. There is no logic! (or some kind of a crazy one...) 

 

I think the point is that the elves weren't gentle among each other, that they had petty nobles and suffering servants as any other country in Thedas. Arlathan wasn't the perfect paradise some elves (and forumites) think it was. It's nothing new, back in the day we had the famous Arcadian pastoral utopia.

 

That said, the same some people have idolized the elven homeland or the Dales, or have a biased point of view about the Dales-Orlais war, I see others doing the opposite with the same amount of sources.

 

For example, I've seen several times people stating that Felassan proved that there was slavery in Arlathan, and thus they were no better than the Tevinter Imperium. Sadly for them, I have the book on my hands. The scene is in chapter 14 and no such thing is stated. What Felassan says is "servants" and the comparison is made with Val Royeaux, not Tevinter. What Felassan describes is a feudal society like any other feudal society in Thedas and the real world: a horrible place where nobles enjoy their privileges while commoners work hard, clean the floors and are punished if they make a mistake. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Dean_the_Young]

How you do move from "isolationist society" to "enslavement".

 

I'm, er, not.

 

Unless I totally missed the boat, I'm fairly sure that what I quoted was talking about Arlathan and the first known elven civilization. Which is itself even further removed from the Dalish than the Dales were. No one is suggesting the Dales were conducting slavery- but the Dales not practicing slavery has no correlation to the practices and policies of Arlathan towards other peoples.

 

 

Why aren't you just satisified with just saying you don't care for them? No one would care. Hate is more fun anyways.

 

You're trying too hard to make things sinister without any lore to justify it.

 

 

The Masked Empire and Patrick Weeks would disagree with you, at least as far as Arlathan is concerned and if you think Orlais culture has sinister aspects to it. As for the Dales, extreme isolationism and xenophobia are traits I'd consider sinister, and they're well within the lore.

 

(Disclaimer: I am one of the kind of people who considers feudalism and its restrictions a form of slavery. That applies to Orlais as well, obviously.)

[Gwydden]

For example, I've seen several times people stating that Felassan proved that there was slavery in Arlathan, and thus they were no better than the Tevinter Imperium. Sadly for them, I have the book on my hands. The scene is in chapter 14 and no such thing is stated. What Felassan says is "servants" and the comparison is made with Val Royeaux, not Tevinter. What Felassan describes is a feudal society like any other feudal society in Thedas and the real world: a horrible place where nobles enjoy their privileges while commoners work hard, clean the floors and are punished if they make a mistake. Nothing more, nothing less.

We have no reason to believe there was slavery in Arlathan. That doesn't mean it was any better than Tevinter. I don't think Tevinter is any worse than Orlais just because the latter has no official slavery. In both of them a privileged minority do whatever they want to the rest of the population. When Orlesian commoners can be raped and killed without anyone batting an eye, are they really any more free than slaves in Tevinter?

[Mistic]

(Disclaimer: I am one of the kind of people who considers feudalism and its restrictions a form of slavery. That applies to Orlais as well, obviously.)

 

Fair enough. That's a point of view I can understand. According to that definition, that means that every institution in Thedas practices some kind of slavery, including Tevinter, Orlais, Ferelden, Nevarra, the Anderfels, Rivain, Antiva, the Free Marches, Rivain, the Qunari, the Chantry, the Circle of Magi and the Grey Wardens.

 

As I like to say, Thedas is a horrible place to live.

[Dean_the_Young]

Fair enough. That's a point of view I can understand. According to that definition, that means that every institution in Thedas practices some kind of slavery, including Tevinter, Orlais, Ferelden, Nevarra, the Anderfels, Rivain, Antiva, the Free Marches, Rivain, the Qunari, the Chantry, the Circle of Magi and the Grey Wardens.

 

As I like to say, Thedas is a horrible place to live.

 

Not quite- when I think of Feudalism-slavery, it's more in terms of serfs (and sometimes caste systems). If you're curious, I could elaborate, but there are feudal systems that don't have the sort of feudal restrictions I would consider equivalent with slavery.

[Gwydden]

Fair enough. That's a point of view I can understand. According to that definition, that means that every institution in Thedas practices some kind of slavery, including Tevinter, Orlais, Ferelden, Nevarra, the Anderfels, Rivain, Antiva, the Free Marches, Rivain, the Qunari, the Chantry, the Circle of Magi and the Grey Wardens.

 

As I like to say, Thedas is a horrible place to live.

You forgot Orzammar and likely Kal Sharok 

[Mistic]

Not quite- when I think of Feudalism-slavery, it's more in terms of serfs (and sometimes caste systems). If you're curious, I could elaborate, but there are feudal systems that don't have the sort of feudal restrictions I would consider equivalent with slavery.

 

That intrigues me. I would like to know more, if you don't mind.

 

You forgot Orzammar and likely Kal Sharok 

 

Not mentioning Orzammar was a big mistake, thank you for reminding me of it. However, I'm not so sure about Kal Sharok. According to WoT, they not only don't give as much importance to the caste system, but members of its Assembly can come from any family. I want to know more before stating anything, but it sounds more bearable than any other system we have find so far in Thedas. Of course, there's the problem of the taint...
 

[myahele]

I wonder if some of the elven cities used humans as "servants" when they 1st arrived?

[The Ascendant]

How did the Dales and Arlathan function as a nation? Was it a monarchy like Orlais or an autocratic magocracy like Tevinter. Was it ruled by a coalition of nobles or was there a single ruler?

[myahele]

Since Arlathan was an empire I'd imagine it was ruled by an Emperor/ Empress with dynasties lasting a long time.

The Dales, who knows. They only lasted 200 yrs. I'm guessing it was a watered down magocracy (since the current Dalish rely on their mage keepers)and ruled by an assembly like dwarves. This is all speculation though.

[Gwydden]

How did the Dales and Arlathan function as a nation? Was it a monarchy like Orlais or an autocratic magocracy like Tevinter. Was it ruled by a coalition of nobles or was there a single ruler?

We only know dreamers were at the top of the food chain. I'm guessing they had an aristocracy of sorts, but that's just me speculating.

[AltanIV]

We only know dreamers were at the top of the food chain. I'm guessing they had an aristocracy of sorts, but that's just me speculating.

 

We also know that all elves used to bear magic, so in a way we could consider Arlathan as some kind of magocracy, and as you said dreamers were at the top of the food chain so... a "Dreamocracy" ? Or a "Somniocracy" ?

[The Ascendant]

I've been reading up on the DA history I think the elves have a problem. Is an elven kingdom even possible?
First they would have to get land. Who would willingly give up land for people who are treated either was second class citizens or wandering vagrants. Would Celene really give up the Dales, an entire province and the closest land to Ferelden just like that?
Secondly why would elves give up their old lives and move to some new nation where they have no idea what kind of reception they'll get?
Thirdly how will other nations react to it? If they become isolationist again how will they foster trade and deal with other people diplomatically.
So any thoughts?

[myahele]

Giving Elves land depends on the ruler of the nation. The Dales were given due to their help in overthrowing Tevinter. The area in Ostagar and south can be given since they helped in the blight.

As for why would they move to an fledgling elven nation...why wouldn't they? They live in squalor in alienage. Humans can do whatever they want to them without repercussions. They can't even farm or own successful business. If the population is too much they get "purged"

I also believe the land given to them will be lands that the nation can live without. It can be inhospitable with no natural resources and fairly infertile. Like Ostagar.

I believe that they'll still be fairly isolationist, but hopefully they learned from history. Lanaya was quite a good leader for the newly formed nation.

[The Ascendant]

If the land is inhospitable and infertile why would the elves want it? It isn't like they can just make the land livable with magic. How will they survive?
True they have a very rough deal in alienages but how will life in this new kingdom be? No matter the place, there is always someone at the bottom. Life might be better for some of them I guess.

[myahele]

Probably with a lot of hard and innovation. Who knows what Dalish and some city elves know about agriculture. They survived for centuries going from isolated places to places. Then there's also Marethari's clan that stayed on a mountain for almost 10yrs. They can maybe trade goods with some humans?

Many city elves may stay in an Alienage, but I am sure many Dalish clans will jump at the opportunity to have a permanent settlement. Life will be rough and many will die traveling there and trying to make something of the land, but it certainly possible if they don't have to worry about leaving.

[LobselVith8]

How did the Dales and Arlathan function as a nation? Was it a monarchy like Orlais or an autocratic magocracy like Tevinter. Was it ruled by a coalition of nobles or was there a single ruler?

 

The kingdom of the Dales was an aristocracy/oligarchy when the elves ruled themselves. Lanaya points out that many of the Keepers are descended from the nobility who governed the elven nation.