273 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Since the elves supposedly withdrew from humanity because they blamed them for taking their immortality, AND the humans obviously did proliferate and prosper enough to be the most dominant race in the continent and for Tevinter to grow be able to utterly destroy the Elvhenan, it doesn't seem like there is any record of elves trying to destroy humans.

[Dean_the_Young]

Who says they did? 

 

No one... but then, no one is claiming that they did, either, so no one has to support that. Nalia_dArnise, on the other hand, is making a specific claim that the elves did NOT conduct certain actions as part of a moral justification argument. That's asserting a position that does require validation if it is to be assumed.

 

The default perspective towards a lack of evidence is ambiguity, not presumption due to a lack of opposition. The lack of evidence of one course (no evidence of genocidal enslavement) is not evidence of the other (no slavery or wars against species) when that course has no evidence either. Otherwise it would work in reverse as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

That intrigues me. I would like to know more, if you don't mind.

 

Well, there's not much to say. It's really variations serfdom, not feudalistic power structures in general, that I view as analogous to slavery. When a serf is tied to the land and can't leave it, and yet is obligated legally and has effective practical measures towards obedience to the land-owner, I view it as the serf and land as effectively being a package property deal. Which is the key point of slavery- that the person is effectively property, their labor and output belongs to the owner, with no or extremely limited recourse towards harm from the owner.

 

 

For a number of the groups you mentioned that does apply to various degrees (Tevinter, Orlais, possibly the Qunari depending on how you view their collectivism), but in others it really doesn't. In the Circle of Magi mages can't leave the land, but they aren't owned, their labor doesn't belong to their restrictors, and they have real and practical legal rights and privileges against the Templars (such that even Meredith can't search mage quarters). The G rey Wardens are even further, so long as you distinguish military conscription from slavery. As for the likes of some of the other countries? No clue where you see it in the Free Marches (such as Kirkwall) or Ferelden. City elves are the definite underclass there with few legal recourses, but the city elves aren't tied to the land as much as mutual preference to stay in the alienages, and they certainly aren't treated as property in any significant sense.

[Dean_the_Young]

Since the elves supposedly withdrew from humanity because they blamed them for taking their immortality, AND the humans obviously did proliferate and prosper enough to be the most dominant race in the continent and for Tevinter to grow be able to utterly destroy the Elvhenan, it doesn't seem like there is any record of elves trying to destroy humans.

 

The conclusion doesn't imply the facts suggested, though. It would simply mean the Elvhenan ultimately failed in whatever attempts they made, not that they never made in. By your reasoning, looking anywhere in the world today would make it seem like there were no efforts of any non-dominant population to destroy the local dominant population.

 

On the other hand, considering that the origins of the human race and the nature of elven immortality (and even, possibly, the root elvenhood itself) is not understood, could imply any number of things- such as raising a question of whether humans are offshoots of elves or vice versa. From what little we know, elves could just as likely be magically altered humans as humans could be degraded elves. Both could easily fit within the space of what we know. If we can learn why elf-human couplings are always human, that could imply divergent interpretations of the earliest known history of Thedas.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well it seems to me like elves could have destroyed or enslaved humanity so if they had tried, especially at the time humans first arrived. There would have been a time when even the ancestors of the Tevinter Imperium would have been primitive in comparison to Arlathan.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well it seems to me like elves could have destroyed or enslaved humanity so if they had tried, especially at the time humans first arrived. There would have been a time when even the ancestors of the Tevinter Imperium would have been primitive in comparison to Arlathan.

 

According to who?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

According to who?

 

Well Genetivi describes that even in the days of the First Blight humanity was still primitive outside the rule of the Imperium. And in the days when humanity first arrived even the Neromenians were similarly just disparate tribes and clans (according to the codex and World of Thedas). Felassan also describes how glorious and magical Arlathan was and compares the Tevinters who copying their magic runes to children. The Dalish Codexes on Arlathan describe how the elves saw humans as pitiful creatures and withdrew from them. And World of Thedas explicitly describes the Ancient Elves withdrawing from contact with humanity as the reason humans were able to spread and become so successful and powerful.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well Genetivi describes that even in the days of the First Blight humanity was still primitive outside the rule of the Imperium. And in the days when humanity first arrived even the Neromenians were similarly just disparate tribes and clans (according to the codex and World of Thedas). Felassan also describes how glorious and magical Arlathan was and compares the Tevinters who copying their magic runes to children. The Dalish Codexes on Arlathan describe how the elves saw humans as pitiful creatures and withdrew from them. And World of Thedas explicitly describes the Ancient Elves withdrawing from contact with humanity as the reason humans were able to spread and become so successful and powerful.

 

 

I forgot the other sources. I was hoping you'd say the Dalish, just so I could point out that they're not unbiased sources. The Dalish have even less objective authority towards Arlathan than the Chantry.

 

But no, this is the correct answer in regards to the initial power disreprency, albeit more for drawing on World of Thedas than the Dalish sources. What it doesn't indicate is how the elves tried to interact with humans before withdrawing, or other solutions attempted.

[Nyeredzi]

(We are the Elvhen! The emerald knights! We have the ears of the gods!!)

 

 

   

 

"By Mythal! By Mythal! By Mythal!"

[Mistic]

Well, there's not much to say. It's really variations serfdom, not feudalistic power structures in general, that I view as analogous to slavery. When a serf is tied to the land and can't leave it, and yet is obligated legally and has effective practical measures towards obedience to the land-owner, I view it as the serf and land as effectively being a package property deal. Which is the key point of slavery- that the person is effectively property, their labor and output belongs to the owner, with no or extremely limited recourse towards harm from the owner.

 

Ah, I see. Well, people of the Middle Ages would take issue with the claim that serfdom and slavery were the same thing, since their law made a distinction. Serfs had certain rights in land and property that the slaves didn't have. However, I agree that from a modern liberal point of view, both institutions could be considered slavery.

 

(Now, if only Eirene could give us some wisdom...)

 

For a number of the groups you mentioned that does apply to various degrees (Tevinter, Orlais, possibly the Qunari depending on how you view their collectivism), but in others it really doesn't. In the Circle of Magi mages can't leave the land, but they aren't owned, their labor doesn't belong to their restrictors, and they have real and practical legal rights and privileges against the Templars (such that even Meredith can't search mage quarters). The G rey Wardens are even further, so long as you distinguish military conscription from slavery. As for the likes of some of the other countries? No clue where you see it in the Free Marches (such as Kirkwall) or Ferelden. City elves are the definite underclass there with few legal recourses, but the city elves aren't tied to the land as much as mutual preference to stay in the alienages, and they certainly aren't treated as property in any significant sense.

 

Mind you, I gave those examples before you made the distinction between feudalism and serfdom. Each and every one of them can be considered feudal in one way or another, yet not everyone may have serfdom.

 

As far as we know, the only country or organization that we can rule out is Ferelden. WoT goes great lenghts to highlight this point.

 

"Fereldan farms, called freeholds, are run by families who have worked their land for generations and would spill blood before giving up their lot. What servants there are receive pay for their services and are free to come and go as they please. Even elves, who live a ghettoized life in urban alienages and often work the lowliest jobs, have a freedom in Ferelden that Orlais would never afford them."

 

Although we don't really have a definite source, I think we can make an educated guess and assume that Orlais doesn't work that way. However, we can't say anything for sure about the rest. That includes the Dales and Arlathan, mind you. The servants Felassan mentioned wouldn't be different from the servants in Ferelden as long as they were paid, a thing we don't know. Maybe the Anderfels and Kal Sharok too don't know serfdom, given the clues in WoT, but we should wait and see.

 

Grey Wardens, Circles and Qunari are a different beast. My initial idea about the Wardens was about them being feudal lords in Aamaranthine, but now that you mention it, I do consider forced conscription for life a kind of slavery. Circles are really strange, since they combine limits from serfdom (tied to the land) and the worst kinds of slavery (impossibility to buy their freedom from their masters, no patria potestas), with privileges from the freemen (selling the product of their work) and the nobles (they are given education, clothes and food). As for the Qunari, so far it looks like it.

[Gwydden]

Although we don't really have a definite source, I think we can make an educated guess and assume that Orlais doesn't work that way. However, we can't say anything for sure about the rest. That includes the Dales and Arlathan, mind you. The servants Felassan mentioned wouldn't be different from the servants in Ferelden as long as they were paid, a thing we don't know.

You do realize elven servants killed their masters the moment they got a chance right? Do you think Fereldan servants would do the same? I think not.

[Mistic]

You do realize elven servants killed their masters the moment their got a chance right? Do you think Fereldan servants would do the same? I think not.

 

CoughCityElfOrigincough

 

Seriously speaking, yes, as long as the master is a jerk there will be people wanting to kill them.

[Gwydden]

CoughCityElfOrigincough

Vaughn is hardly the stick we should measure Fereldan nobles by.

As for the Qunari, so far it looks like it.

You know, this is interesting. If the Qunari are indeed slaves, who owns them? Who would be the free members of their society?

[Mistic]

Vaughn is hardly the stick we should measure Fereldan nobles by.

You know, this is interesting. If the Qunari are indeed slaves, who owns them? Who would be the free members of their society?

 

Agreed, but the same could be said about the elven nobles in TME. We only see one noble with his throat slit. Only one. And they have to assume that it was a product of revenge, since there aren't other clues around. If you only found Vaughn's corpse, would you assume that it was the product of a revolution?

 

And that's the thing that makes it strange about the Qunari. That's why I said that Grey Wardens, Circles and Qunari were a different beast altogether. That's a good way of putting it: if Qunari are slaves, who is the master?

[Gwydden]

And that's the thing that makes it strange about the Qunari. That's why I said that Grey Wardens, Circles and Qunari were a different beast altogether. That's a good way of putting it: if Qunari are slaves, who is the master?

There was this novel I read some time ago, which depicted a society where everyone was a slave except for one person, "the Master". A curious and creepy concept, and not that far off from Qunari philosophy. The reasoning was even similar.

 

If I were to make a guess, I'd say the priesthood are the slave owners in Qunari society.

 

Agreed, but the same could be said about the elven nobles in TME. We only see one noble with his throat slit. Only one. And they have to assume that it was a product of revenge, since there aren't other clues around. If you only found Vaughn's corpse, would you assume that it was the product of a revolution?

Good point. Truth is, none of us know who Arlathan was worse or better than.

[The Ascendant]

For the Qunari I think the priests specifically the Tamassarans have most power in their society. They decide whom mates with whom, educates the children and gives them their roles. The Ben-Hassrath are also under the Ariquns authority so she/he wields a great dealof iinfluence. I wouldn't say that the Qun is total slavery, but it isn't freedom.

[myahele]

What if one method to control human population was to create warewolves?

Back in the day werewolves were more widespread, especially in Ferelden. We know Zathrian re-created the curse a few centuries back. Surely, Ancient elves were alot more knowledgeable than Zathrian.

Since they pulled away from Humans and they like to take their time wouldn't it make sense for them to unleash werewolves and other beasts in these humans? That way they never have to come close to a human.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Then why does only Ferelden (aka the people furthest from the Arlathan Forest) have a history with werewolves? Also the legends of Dane and the werewolves only goes back to the Divine Age, 900 years after the Fall of Arlathan.

[In Exile]

Well Genetivi describes that even in the days of the First Blight humanity was still primitive outside the rule of the Imperium. And in the days when humanity first arrived even the Neromenians were similarly just disparate tribes and clans (according to the codex and World of Thedas). Felassan also describes how glorious and magical Arlathan was and compares the Tevinters who copying their magic runes to children. The Dalish Codexes on Arlathan describe how the elves saw humans as pitiful creatures and withdrew from them. And World of Thedas explicitly describes the Ancient Elves withdrawing from contact with humanity as the reason humans were able to spread and become so successful and powerful.

 

But humanity in the time of the First Blight was centuries - if not a millennium or more - removed from obliterating every trace of Arlathan and enslaving every elf in Thedas. A power disparity between Arlathan (in favour of Arlathan) just doesn't make sense given how absolutely vicious their culture was eradicated. 

 

Regardless of how the humans started off vs. the elves, by around the time Arlathan was curbstomped, they had to be on relatively equal footing. 

[Gervaise]

I'm very pro elf but I have to admit that at this distance of time it is difficult to say exactly what went on between the elves and the humans at the time of Arlathan.  Naturally the elves make the humans the villains; they have never really been given a reason not to.   However, in the ruin at the beginning of Origins there seemed evidence of elves and humans living alongside one another.  May be the humans introduced disease that the elves magic couldn't counter and that is where the story about loss of immortality came from.   It would seem that when elves got older the reason they didn't die was because they went into Uthenara, a sort of hibernation state and managed to create or access some different plane entirely from the material world or the Fade.   I suspect the real conflict was over the access to the Eluvians.   However, why do you need a vast network to travel around, that is only friendly to elves?   The elves have a tradition of mages being the natural leaders.   The human leaders were also mages.   May be the elves didn't just withdraw but also used the eluvians to attack leading figures among the humans to try and weaken their power.   Whatever the case, I'm sure the full history, if we ever get to know it, was not a straight forward as the elves make out.   This is not because they are lying, it is simply that the elves themselves had forgotten so much by the time to achieved their freedom.    We are so accustomed to seeing Tevinter as the big bad because of what they became but it doesn't necessarily mean they started out that way or they weren't as much sinned against as sinning.

 

I also point out that with regard to present days conditions for elves, in the city elf origin even in Ferelden elves were required to get a licence from the Chantry to allow them to travel out of Denerim to another alienage.   It may not be slavery but it's not the sort of freedom that human commoners enjoy.   That was what was a bit odd in Masked Empire, the fact that Felassan seemed to come and go as he pleased and no one queried it but I suppose it was possible that Briala had smoothed the way for him in the past.     The alienage in Val Royeaux was meant to be one of the worst in terms of overcrowding and confined conditions, with 10,000 elves kept cooped up in a space no bigger than Denerim Market, but we never got a sense of that.     Celene just making a few concessions in terms of elves serving herself or her friends does not amount to major reform.     The majority would still be down in the gutter with no hope of ever leaving it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

But humanity in the time of the First Blight was centuries - if not a millennium or more - removed from obliterating every trace of Arlathan and enslaving every elf in Thedas. A power disparity between Arlathan (in favour of Arlathan) just doesn't make sense given how absolutely vicious their culture was eradicated. 

 

Regardless of how the humans started off vs. the elves, by around the time Arlathan was curbstomped, they had to be on relatively equal footing. 

 

It was the more advanced Imperium that destroyed Arlathan, but what I meant was that the rest of humanity was still primitive even centuries later and at one point the even neromenians were more similar to the rest of humanity.

[Mistic]

But humanity in the time of the First Blight was centuries - if not a millennium or more - removed from obliterating every trace of Arlathan and enslaving every elf in Thedas. A power disparity between Arlathan (in favour of Arlathan) just doesn't make sense given how absolutely vicious their culture was eradicated. 

 

Regardless of how the humans started off vs. the elves, by around the time Arlathan was curbstomped, they had to be on relatively equal footing. 

 

We have to remember that it wasn't as simple as "humans arrive, humans and elves get angry at each other, puny little humans crush the elves in one blow". Centuries passed between these events, enough for a mighty civilization like the Tevinter Imperium to rise at the expense of the elves.

-3100: Humanity arrives to Thedas.

-2850: Elves are said to first notice the loss of their immortality and start retreating.

-2800: The old gods are said to first whisper to the humans and teach them magic.

-1700: The Neromenian tribes split, forming the first kingdoms.

-1595: First documented person to use blood magic (Thalsian, First Priest of Dumat).

-1195: Darinius unites the Neromenian kingdoms and founds the Tevinter Imperium. An alliance with the dwarves was signed 5 years earlier.

-981: The Tevinter-Arlathan war starts.

-975: Tevinter sinks Arlathan and enslaves the elves.

 

2119 years had passed since the humans first arrived to Thedas when Tevinter and Arlathan went to war, according to WoT. Try to think what the world was like 2119 years ago. Who were the barbarians then? Who the civilized people? And who are they now?

 

Since Tevinter was modeled after the Roman Empire (and its successor, the Byzantine Empire), I think that the Arlathan-Tevinter war sounds suspiciously similar to the Punic Wars. Even after the Romans had progressed to the point the united most of the Italian peninsula, they were still considered inferior to the Carthaginians, especially regarding their navies. Yet, fastforward 118 years and Carthage is burned to the ground.

[The Ascendant]

I hope we encounter more magical artifacts in the Dales. I doubt the Eluvians are the only elf exclusive item they made.
Hopefully something like the Magrallen from the comics. I for one found Titus' plan intriguing. Brainwashing everyone in the world to forget the Qun and the Chant, making mages the rulers of the world? Dalish Mage Inquisitor approves.

[TheWhitefire]

Let's also keep in mind that there is evidence in Dragon Age: Origins that Elves and Humans lived peacefully alongside one another. Specificially, the Eluvian in the Dalish Origin is located in a ruin that seems to be of human design, but contains numerous elven artifacts (not least of which is the Eluvian itself) and signs of cohabitation between the two species.