273 réponses à ce sujet

[myahele]

Random thought, but could the initial human advantage over the elves have been tied to something as simple as the horse? The Halla are basically a species of deer. They might be majestic animals and useful beasts of burden, but a deer could never rival the horse as a cavalry mount. The horse also appears to be an animal that was domesticated first by humans. If the humans arrived in Thedas with horses I would think that would give them a significant advantage over elven armies.

 

 

Wasn't said that Hallas were used in wars too?

[Xilizhra]

Wasn't said that Hallas were used in wars too?

Yes, they were used as mounts by the Emerald Knights.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, I really don't see an army of dragons helping Tevinter, and the Old Gods were imprisoned, but it's true that WoT points out the help the Tevinters were given by the Old Gods. They are credited with teaching magic to the Dreamers of the Neromenians, thus shifting the power in the tribes to those mages (-2800 Ancient) and it's said that the first known person to use blood magic was taught by Dumat (-1595 Ancient).

 

It wouldn't far-fetched to think that the Old Gods were interested in the fall of Arlathan. Maybe the elves were taught magic by the Old Gods too, but weren't useful enough for them. Then came the humans and the Old Gods might have seen them as the perfect puppets.

 

 

No evidence? We killed the corrupted Urthemiel in DA:O. They did exist. However, if they can be considered gods or just especially intelligent high dragons is another matter.

 

I agree for the most part. I have a theory that if the elves ever were immortal, then the Old Gods had something to do with them losing it. Their first mention in history is suspiciously close to when the Quickening is supposedly said to have taken place. Plus, it was purportedly the Old Gods themselves who encouraged the Tevinters to destroy Arlathan in the first place. Although the Imperium using dragons to do it sounds a little like an exaggeration.

[Gorguz]

Well, we know blood magic and spirits can give a mage a long lifespan, and there aren't other ways. We also know that dalish do not approve the definitions of demons. Maybe Arlathan was more like Tevinter than we think.

[In Exile]

Dalish Vaallaslin is something that has had it's inception with the Fall of the Dales. By tatooing symbols of their gods and such on their faces it's their way of ensuring they will never forget the old ways.

I think that method of marking is actually tied to an older practice which we see (very ironically) with Fenris and his lyrium markings.

[Mistic]

I agree for the most part. I have a theory that if the elves ever were immortal, then the Old Gods had something to do with them losing it. Their first mention in history is suspiciously close to when the Quickening is supposedly said to have taken place. Plus, it was purportedly the Old Gods themselves who encouraged the Tevinters to destroy Arlathan in the first place. Although the Imperium using dragons to do it sounds a little like an exaggeration.

 

Mm, true, the Old Gods could have been involved with the Quickening. Of course, maybe it wasn't the lose of immortality, but a especially virulent plague. Not unlike what happened to the Native Americans when the first Europeans came and brought their sicknesses with them.

 

Sadly, I don't really see the answers to these questions in Inquisition. Maybe if the game had taken place in Tevinter, since Arlathan is not far from there. It's more likely that we'll find answers about the Dales, and their war with Orlais. I mean, we're going to the Dales themselves during a war in Orlais and with problems with elves. I can't find a better opportunity to know more of that first exalted march.

[Gwydden]

I agree for the most part. I have a theory that if the elves ever were immortal, then the Old Gods had something to do with them losing it. Their first mention in history is suspiciously close to when the Quickening is supposedly said to have taken place. Plus, it was purportedly the Old Gods themselves who encouraged the Tevinters to destroy Arlathan in the first place. Although the Imperium using dragons to do it sounds a little like an exaggeration.

Does it say anywhere that it was Tevinter that attacked Arlathan? Nothing I've seen specifies who started the war. Not that it being stated somewhere would prove anything, really. The Dales only fell a few centuries ago and we still have no idea of who started it all.

[Gervaise]

I'm starting to think the lore that "our people were immortal" is rather the same as "all our people were able to perform magic."   Either it was true that all their people were mages and immortality was connected to this, so loss of magical ability led to loss of immortality, or it is misremembered and exaggerated, so only their mages were immortal, not all the elves.   Then the reason the mages appeared immortal was because of the tendency to enter Uthenara as they became older, either because they were growing weary of life or genuinely wished to make room for the young.  

 

It is hinted in Masked Empire that this could reach a true stasis state where they no longer required sustenance and presumably did not age either but could still interact with the wider world through the Fade and could be woken if the need arose.  In ME you also find one of these ancients with his throat cut, which was done after entering the dream state.   It is not clear why this was done but it is presumed it was done by one of the servants who tended them.   It is possible that this was as a result of another dreamer, possibly a human one, controlling their mind through the Fade or getting a spirit to do so.    This would then account for why it seemed as though the loss of immortality coincided with closer relations with humans and why withdrawing from contact, so they would find it harder to identify who to attack in the Fade, was the route taken by the ancient elves.

 

It would also seem from ME that ancient spirits do not taken kindly to people tricking them or even summoning them and then not being willing to accept the consequences of doing so by acceding to the spirit's demands.    So if the ancient elves of Arlathan had upset a powerful spirit or spirits in some way, this would account for why they appeared to be abandoned by their gods (spirits) and why simultaneously Tevinter seemed to gain in power, again through the intervention of spirits.  

[Ravenfeeder]

I like to think that tales of Ancient Elven superiority are just tales that the Dalish hold onto and spread, but aren't necessarily true. Like medieval Europeans thinking everything Roman was great, when in fact the medieval folk were way ahead technologically. Arlathan may have had one or two amazing things going for it, but for the most part it would be considered a city of backward squalor. Just a theory, but it's as good as any other since all we have to go on is 'tales' and 'histories'.

[Han Shot First]

Given all the magic that's sure to have been flung around, I don't think horses would have been enough of an advantage to tip the balance, especially since halla are significantly smarter than horses.

 

Elephants are smarter than horses too, but they are inferior to horses as mounts. Hallas are a species of deer. As such they'd be inferior to horses as a cavalry mount. All things being equal, the safe bet would be on humans mounted on horses rather than the elves on their deer.

 

The thing with magic is how common was it? How many mages would be present for battles and to what extent did they shape them? If mages were no common than say..ballistae or catapults and such, I doubt they'd entirely negate the effectiveness of horse archers or a heavy cavalry charge. 

[LobselVith8]

Well, we know blood magic and spirits can give a mage a long lifespan, and there aren't other ways. We also know that dalish do not approve the definitions of demons. Maybe Arlathan was more like Tevinter than we think.

From Merrill to WoT, the Dalish view all spirits as dangerous, and don't categorize some spirits as good or benevolent. I don't see how that would make Arlathan similar to the Imperium, especially when blood magic may have played a vital role in giving the human mages an edge over the elven mages who were ultimately defeated and enslaved.

[myahele]

I think that method of marking is actually tied to an older practice which we see (very ironically) with Fenris and his lyrium markings.

I was thinking the same thing. I always thought the Dalish tattoos had a much longer history than we are led to believe. True, after the fall of the Dalish they got those tattoos to distinguish themselves from city elves.

Those tattoos are pretty much magical symbols of thier gods plus it requires a ritual and blood. Maybe originally it was needed for Uthenera or something else?

[In Exile]

I was thinking the same thing. I always thought the Dalish tattoos had a much longer history than we are led to believe. True, after the fall of the Dalish they got those tattoos to distinguish themselves from city elves.

Those tattoos are pretty much magical symbols of thier gods plus it requires a ritual and blood. Maybe originally it was needed for Uthenera or something else?

 

I think it was just a way for them to mark their anti-warriors. We have lots of hints that elven culture was much darker and close to Tevinter than the Dalish like to pretend, and having a mind-wiping ceremony that then allows them to take an essentially amnesiac warrior and raise him or her as loyal to the cause would make fearsome templars. 

[LobselVith8]

I think it was just a way for them to mark their anti-warriors. We have lots of hints that elven culture was much darker and close to Tevinter than the Dalish like to pretend, and having a mind-wiping ceremony that then allows them to take an essentially amnesiac warrior and raise him or her as loyal to the cause would make fearsome templars. 

 

What hints are given that Arlathan was an elven Tevinter, or that the Dalish are "pretending" anything about Arlathan? Aside from Felassan's comments about elven servants (who compared Arlathan to Orlais), we also have the Sabrae clan entertaining the possibility that the Arlathan elves summoned the spirit Audacity during the war, as opposed to assuming the spirit could only have been summoned by the mages from the Tevinter Imperium.

 

We also have the Dalish (including Merrill) comment on the fact that they don't have all the facts about their past, including about the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones.

[Gorguz]

From Merrill to WoT, the Dalish view all spirits as dangerous, and don't categorize some spirits as good or benevolent. I don't see how that would make Arlathan similar to the Imperium, especially when blood magic may have played a vital role in giving the human mages an edge over the elven mages who were ultimately defeated and enslaved.

Now do the dalish consider spirits dangerous? Merril does not have problem with spirits, if the dalish are traditionally against them, she wouldn't have made a deal with the pride one. Then there's that clan who summoned one of the forbidden. A forbidden one who had a past with Felassan, an other dalish. Then there's Zatharian and Velanna. One summoned a powerlful spirit to curse a human tribe, the other put spirits in trees to attack the warden commander. Merril clan, it is a particular clan. They accept city elves, dalish who had children from humans, an half elves. They are an exception amongst the dalish, and even so, they despise Merril, they do not fear her (yes, there was that city elf yadda yadda). Then there is the dalish definition of demons. Or the lack of definition, I should say. Then there are the Varterrals, immortal creatures made by the elves, without an Anvil. How did they animate them, without bloodmagic and spirits?

So to me, elves are very open to spirits, and if in Arlathan ruled magic, than I wouldn't be surprise if the ancient elven empire was a tevinter imperium with pointed ears.

[LobselVith8]

Now do the dalish consider spirits dangerous? Merril does not have problem with spirits, if the dalish are traditionally against them, she wouldn't have made a deal with the pride one. 

 

Merrill considers spirits dangerous as well in Dragon Age II. Notably, her line to the former Grey Warden, "Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

 

Unlike the traditionalist Dalish (for lack of a more apt word), she's more of a rebel in speaking with (the trapped) Audacity and using blood magic.

 

Then there's that clan who summoned one of the forbidden. A forbidden one who had a past with Felassan, an other dalish.

 

Clan Virnehn. The one-dimensional caricatures from "The Masked Empire" who lacked any personality or depth. I remember them. Unfortunately.

 

hen there's Zatharian and Velanna. One summoned a powerlful spirit to curse a human tribe, the other put spirits in trees to attack the warden commander.

 

Velanna was exiled, whether or not she commanded the trees as part of elven magic (similar to Velanna and Merrill using roots to attack their foes) or actually commanded sylvans remains unknown, since no developer clarified this (and neither does the narrative); also, Zathrian alone holds responsibility for his actions in cursing the humans who murdered his son and raped his daughter.

 

They are an exception amongst the dalish, and even so, they despise Merril, they do not fear her (yes, there was that city elf yadda yadda). Then there is the dalish definition of demons. Or the lack of definition, I should say.

 

All spirits are dangerous to the Dalish, so they don't act as though there are some spirits who are benevolent, or that spirits are divided by those who represent Andrastian "sins" and the like. I don't see the issue, since Merrill is able to distinguish the traits of different spirits who are encountered, from the Profane Abomination to Torpor.

 

Then there are the Varterrals, immortal creatures made by the elves, without an Anvil. How did they animate them, without bloodmagic and spirits?

 

If you have to admit that no one knows how they came into existence, I don't see how you can cite them as evidence against the elves. Also, the actions of the Arlathan elves don't really come into play as to how the Dalish clans currently are.

 

So to me, elves are very open to spirits, and if in Arlathan ruled magic, than I wouldn't be surprise if the ancient elven empire was a tevinter imperium with pointed ears.

 

Considering you admitted earlier that it's only some Dalish who go against tradition, I don't see how you can claim that Dalish elves are open to spirits.

[In Exile]

What hints are given that Arlathan was an elven Tevinter, or that the Dalish are "pretending" anything about Arlathan? Aside from Felassan's comments about elven servants (who compared Arlathan to Orlais), we also have the Sabrae clan entertaining the possibility that the Arlathan elves summoned the spirit Audacity during the war, as opposed to assuming the spirit could only have been summoned by the mages from the Tevinter Imperium.

 

We also have the Dalish (including Merrill) comment on the fact that they don't have all the facts about their past, including about the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones.

 

You've frequently made the point (except now, because it's apparently not convenient) that the Orlesian treatment of elves, despite not using the word slavery, is tantamount to slavery. If you've changed your mind about that, I'm happy to debate with you if you'd like. 

 

Beside that, we've seen that the only method of increasing lifespan is through blood magic, and the only elf with an unnaturally long life (Zathrian) used blood magic and, essentially, demonology to do it (by binding a spirit). He obviously didn't learn that magic from the Circle, so it's really only possible source is Dalish or, more likely, something he discovered in ancient elven ruins. 

 

We also have codex evidence of the virulent, 1939-era Germany racism direct toward humans by the elves of Arlathan. 

 

So we've got horrible blood magic rituals, borderline if not actual slavery, and virulent racism. 

 

Beyond that, every elf who talks about Arlathan - and this is Merrill included - talks about it as an idealistic society that they'd love to revive with the implication that all elves were, basically, really well off and equal. 

[In Exile]

Merrill considers spirits dangerous as well in Dragon Age II. Notably, her line to the former Grey Warden, "Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

 

 

She's not actually capable of understanding how spirits are dangerous, however, so her comments only go so far when her naivety handicaps her from thinking about demons as anything more than animals who are personally targeting the person interacting with them. 

 

The lore suggests that Dalish have more cautious attitudes towards fade creatures than humans, but Merrill is not the best example of someone who is capable of understanding how demons are dangerous. 

 

Edit: We basically have this debate every time you bring up Merrill. Her complete inability to understand that Audacity could be playing her like a fiddle to ride Marethari as a meatsuit and escape shows that Merrill is inacapble of understanding how cunning works, that she's not the centre of the universe, and that demons are not so stupid as to limit themselves to trying to possess one host.  

 

Clan Virnehn. The one-dimensional caricatures from "The Masked Empire" who lacked any personality or depth. I remember them. Unfortunately.

 

They embody everything we see from other Dalish in-game, and behave exactly like I (and others) have said that the lore suggests the Dalish behave. I get that you hate the fact that it's evidence your wrong in how you idealize the Dalish, but that doesn't make their portrayal problematic when it's backed up by everything in DA:O and DA2. 

 

Velanna was exiled, whether or not she commanded the trees as part of elven magic (similar to Velanna and Merrill using roots to attack their foes) or actually commanded sylvans remains unknown, since no developer clarified this (and neither does the narrative); also, Zathrian alone holds responsibility for his actions in cursing the humans who murdered his son and raped his daughter.

 

We've seen, including the books, about 5 Dalish mages/Keepers. Of these, 4 clearly and unequivocally conspire with fade creatures (Marethari absolutely counts). The only one who we're even remotely skeptical about is Velanna, because we can debate whether or not she actually used sylvans or whether what she did was somehow limited by the game resources. 

 

That's pretty strong evidence the Dalish don't practice what they preach. 

[LobselVith8]

You've frequently made the point (except now, because it's apparently not convenient) that the Orlesian treatment of elves, despite not using the word slavery, is tantamount to slavery. If you've changed your mind about that, I'm happy to debate with you if you'd like. 

 

I've made the point that the elven Warden can view it as slavery when Leliana describes the Orlesian treatment of elves. However, my point in this thread was that Felassan compares Arlathan to Orlais, not Tevinter.

 

Beside that, we've seen that the only method of increasing lifespan is through blood magic, and the only elf with an unnaturally long life (Zathrian) used blood magic and, essentially, demonology to do it (by binding a spirit). He obviously didn't learn that magic from the Circle, so it's really only possible source is Dalish or, more likely, something he discovered in ancient elven ruins.

 

We have absolutely no idea where Zathrian learned blood magic, since WoT addresses that the Dalish traditionally avoid using schools of magic that involve spirits, since they view all spirits as dangerous.

 

We also have codex evidence of the virulent, 1939-era Germany racism direct toward humans by the elves of Arlathan.

 

The elven lore of the Quickening hasn't stopped the Dalish from adopting a human child, signing a treaty to aid humans during the Blight, or interacting with humans on occasion.

 

So we've got horrible blood magic rituals, borderline if not actual slavery, and virulent racism. 

 

We have Zathrian cursing the humans who assaulted his daughter and killed his son, Felassan comparing Arlathan to Orlais, and elven lore that can't be substantiated one way or the other.

 

Beyond that, every elf who talks about Arlathan - and this is Merrill included - talks about it as an idealistic society that they'd love to revive with the implication that all elves were, basically, really well off and equal. 

 

Immortality and wielding magic isn't idealized to me, and we continually hear the Dalish admit they don't have all the facts about their past. And Merrill acknowledges that the clan isn't certain who summoned Audacity, addressing even they acknowledge the possibility that it could have been the Arlathan elves. If their view of their ancestors was so idealized as you claim, the ancient elves wouldn't even be in consideration for summoning a spirit during the war.

[myahele]

One thing to also keep in mind is that there are demons that disguise themselves as benevolent spirits (more or less)

 

It's been mention in codex entries that a spirit healer must constantly beware of demons pretending to be beneficial spirits.

 

I wonder how often ancient elves reproduced? It was mentioned (by someone) that ancient elves where varied, but were few in number

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Does it say anywhere that it was Tevinter that attacked Arlathan? Nothing I've seen specifies who started the war. Not that it being stated somewhere would prove anything, really. The Dales only fell a few centuries ago and we still have no idea of who started it all.

 

World of Thedas says "Tensions between Tevinter and the elves erupt into open warfare. The Imperium besieges Arlathan" on the timeline. Although there was also a post many years ago where David Gaider explained that the Old Gods were the ones that encouraged the Magisters to attack Arlathan. I'm having trouble finding it though because it was on the old forums. It was his explanation for why the Old Gods and Creators were probably not the same beings.

[LobselVith8]

She's not actually capable of understanding how spirits are dangerous, however, so her comments only go so far when her naivety handicaps her from thinking about demons as anything more than animals who are personally targeting the person interacting with them. 

 

Merrill seems perfectly capable of understanding how dangerous spirits are, especially given her ability to identify the type of spirits Hawke encounters in the Deep Roads and in the Beyond, so I can't agree with your opinion on the character.

 

The lore suggests that Dalish have more cautious attitudes towards fade creatures than humans, but Merrill is not the best example of someone who is capable of understanding how demons are dangerous.

 

The fact that Merrill addresses the Profane Abomination as a hunger spirit, and Torpor was a spirit of sloth, would suggest that while they view all spirits as dangerous, they aren't ignorant about the characteristics of spirits. They simply don't divide Spirits and Demons into categorizations of Spirits being the First Children of the Maker, and Demons as Spirits who turned their backs on the Maker and embody different "sins".

 

We basically have this debate every time you bring up Merrill. Her complete inability to understand that Audacity could be playing her like a fiddle to ride Marethari as a meatsuit and escape shows that Merrill is inacapble of understanding how cunning works, that she's not the centre of the universe, and that demons are not so stupid as to limit themselves to trying to possess one host. 

 

If Marethari releases Audacity and falls prey to it's machinations, then I'm going to place the blame on Marethari, not Merrill. I also don't share your opinion of viewing her as "incapable" simply because the Keeper fell prey to Audacity's deceptions. Merrill was living in Kirkwall, and as she points out, the clan should have left years prior to Act III. I don't expect Merrill to be psychic, or to expect Marethari to behave so recklessly with her life, and the lives of the men, women, and children who are under her charge.

 

They embody everything we see from other Dalish in-game, and behave exactly like I (and others) have said that the lore suggests the Dalish behave. I get that you hate the fact that it's evidence your wrong in how you idealize the Dalish, but that doesn't make their portrayal problematic when it's backed up by everything in DA:O and DA2. 

 

I've continually pointed out that the clans are varied and different, as the developers themselves have pointed out about the Dalish as a people. I've also never said that the Dalish were perfect, since I've pointed out elven characters who have made mistakes, from Zathrian to Marethari. I'm not willing to vilify all of the Dalish clans all across the continent simply because of the behave of a few people.

 

We've seen, including the books, about 5 Dalish mages/Keepers. Of these, 4 clearly and unequivocally conspire with fade creatures (Marethari absolutely counts). The only one who we're even remotely skeptical about is Velanna, because we can debate whether or not she actually used sylvans or whether what she did was somehow limited by the game resources. 

 

That's pretty strong evidence the Dalish don't practice what they preach. 

 

We have Zathrian, a single person who doesn't condemn his clan simply because of his actions; we have Velanna, who was exiled from her clan for her behavior and actions; we have Marethari, who acted without the knowledge and consent of the others among her clan. I'm not seeing how these individuals should condemn the Dalish as a whole.

[In Exile]

Merrill seems perfectly capable of understanding how dangerous spirits are, especially given her ability to identify the type of spirits Hawke encounters in the Deep Roads and in the Beyond, so I can't agree with your opinion on the character.

 

Saying "spirits are dangerous" doesn't mean that she actually understands how spirits can be dangerous. She is blatantly incapable of actually grasping that a demon's plan can involve anything other than the thing directly in front of itself as a target - she treats them like dangerous animals, not dangerous people. 

 

She's the prime example of someone who uses the right words without actually "getting" it. 

 

 

The fact that Merrill addresses the Profane Abomination as a hunger spirit, and Torpor was a spirit of sloth, would suggest that while they view all spirits as dangerous, they aren't ignorant about the characteristics of spirits. They simply don't divide Spirits and Demons into categorizations of Spirits being the First Children of the Maker, and Demons as Spirits who turned their backs on the Maker and embody different "sins".

 

That has nothing to do with what I've said. Merill can't understand that demons are cunning. She can't even wrap her head around how they are cunning. That's why Audacity played her like a fiddle: because at no point did Merrill ever consider that she was anything but the creature's prime target and, in fact, it's only target for possession. The idea that Audacity was just using her to manipulate Marethari didn't even cross her mind. 

 

 

If Marethari releases Audacity and falls prey to it's machinations, then I'm going to place the blame on Marethari, not Merrill. I also don't share your opinion of viewing her as "incapable" simply because the Keeper fell prey to Audacity's deceptions. Merrill was living in Kirkwall, and as she points out, the clan should have left years prior to Act III. I don't expect Merrill to be psychic, or to expect Marethari to behave so recklessly with her life, and the lives of the men, women, and children who are under her charge.

 

Merrill had a naive, childish understanding of the situation: Audacity is only targeting her, the only thing it wants is to possess Merrill, and all that Merrill has to do to keep her clan safe is to keep herself away from Audacity. The idea that Audacity is actually targeting both her and Marethari, that all it wants to do is to keep the two separate and to try to manipulate their ill feelings toward one another to score one of them as a meatsuit is completely beyond them.

Merrill isn't at fault because Marethari let Audacity ride her, and I've never said that. Merrill is at fault for, as I've said repeatedly in this post, for not being able to understand or even consider the very sophisticated game that Audacity was playing. 

 

There is nothing that requires Merrill to be psychic about Audacity's intent. It's literally using the most basic and elementary form of divide and conquer possible. But since Merril is incapable of wrapping her head around social politics, she's entirely incapable of dealing with any demon more complex than a rage demon, whose basic mode of thinking is "Hulk smash!". 

 

Merrill failed, comically and miserably, in understanding the plot that Audacity was using. She failed to take any steps to counter that plot, and instead played right into its hands and enabled its schemes. She was such an incredible patsy that she enabled a demon trapped for millennia to escape. This is the highest possible order of failure when it comes to bargaining with demons. 

 

 

I've continually pointed out that the clans are varied and different, as the developers themselves have pointed out about the Dalish as a people. I've also never said that the Dalish were perfect, since I've pointed out elven characters who have made mistakes, from Zathrian to Marethari. I'm not willing to vilify all of the Dalish clans all across the continent simply because of the behave of a few people.

 

The lore, on the other hand, has continually pointed out that the Dalish are quite similar in several important ways, particularly in their hypocrisy and xenophobia. Seeing yet another hypocritical and xenophobic Dalish tribe is not a lore breaking moment. 

 

This isn't about vilifying the Dalish - this is about calling a spade a spade. 

 

We have Zathrian, a single person who doesn't condemn his clan simply because of his actions; we have Velanna, who was exiled from her clan for her behavior and actions; we have Marethari, who acted without the knowledge and consent of the others among her clan. I'm not seeing how these individuals should condemn the Dalish as a whole.

 

Only in your head have I condemned anyone. I said that we've seen 4 out of 5 mages deal directly with spirits, contrary to the ostensibly "no spirit" stance of the Dalish. This isn't about blame. This is about literally stating facts that we've seen directly in-game or in the books. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

They embody everything we see from other Dalish in-game, and behave exactly like I (and others) have said that the lore suggests the Dalish behave. I get that you hate the fact that it's evidence your wrong in how you idealize the Dalish, but that doesn't make their portrayal problematic when it's backed up by everything in DA:O and DA2. 

 

This is simply false. We haven't seen any Dalish clans capture and abuse the PC and their party on sight before and then consider just executing them outright  .

 

Keeper Thelhen says of the city elves, "The poor creatures in the alienages you think of as elves are but poor cousins, lost to use forever. Some clans might accept a few of them to strengthen their numbers or out of a misguided sense of pity, but they are not our people" and "If you and Gaspard slew each other, and the war killed every human in Orlais, and burned every alienage to the ground... then we would be willing to return to Halamshiral."

 

That is a sentiment we haven't seen from any Dalish Elves before, even ones hostile to City Elves (which not all of them are such as Marethari and Paivel). Velanna has no respect for them because she believes they are spineless and have forgotten who they are. She gives them an elven annulment so they remember. That's a very different sentiment. And Keeper Thelhen explicitly other Dalish clans taking in other elves, the very thing the clans we've seen do.

 

Believing that City Elves are not "their people" doesn't mean the same thing as "I wish you all would die." And even that is not a universal attitude amongst the Dalish. Merrill even says she considers the plight of the City Elves in the Alienage to be the plight of "our people" in one of her conversation with Fenris. And in another she tells Fenris that the Tevinter slaves should go to the Dalish for help. And in the case of Alarith in the Denerim aleiange, that's basically exactly what happened. And Joshmael tells Tallis "The elves are all one people" in Dragon Age: Redemption.

[In Exile]

I've made the point that the elven Warden can view it as slavery when Leliana describes the Orlesian treatment of elves. However, my point in this thread was that Felassan compares Arlathan to Orlais, not Tevinter.

 

I dislike it when people lie. You used the dialogue option as proof in your argument that Orlesians enslave the elves. But now, of course, that argument is no longer convenient in your backtracking. Don't worry, though. I've bookmarked this post and will bring it up each and every time you try to argue, from now on, that the treatment of elves in Orlais is anything like slavery.

 

We have absolutely no idea where Zathrian learned blood magic, since WoT addresses that the Dalish traditionally avoid using schools of magic that involve spirits, since they view all spirits as dangerous.

 

And we're back to hypocrisy. We have clear evidence from every single time any DA media has portrayed the Dalish that they do use magic involving spirits, and if it wasn't for the ambiguity surrounding Velanna, 100% of the Dalish mages we would have seen would have made deals with spirits or otherwise used them. 

 

The evidence is overwhelming. Zathrian isn't a Circle-trained mage. He knows blood magic. He knows an ancient ritual to bind a forest spirit. His only sources of learning magic, besides training via other Keepers, is the recovery of ancient elven magic/lore. That magic can only be elven. 

 

The elven lore of the Quickening hasn't stopped the Dalish from adopting a human child, signing a treaty to aid humans during the Blight, or interacting with humans on occasion.

 

Only in your head does this irrelevant point - about the Dalish, no less - have anything to do with what I said, which was that the codex reveals that the Arlathan elves expressed a level of racism that is unheard of against humans. 

 

 

We have Zathrian cursing the humans who assaulted his daughter and killed his son, Felassan comparing Arlathan to Orlais, and elven lore that can't be substantiated one way or the other.

 

We have Zathrian using a blood magic ritual - he admits outright that it is blood magic - that he used to pretend that he was immortal (lying and making an absolute mockery of the most cherished beliefs of his people) whose only possible source is ancient elven magic. 

 

We have textual support for the proposition that ancient Arlathan treated a portion of its population as slaves, allowed its military officers to murder them without provocation (recall what the Chevaliers do), and otherwise limited them to ghettos and servant roles in society. We presumably have the same occasional purges that the Alienages are subject to, and the general demeaning attitude directed toward them. 

 

Arlathan had slaves, whether or not they used the word, and whether or not they sacrified them for blood magic rituals.  

 

Immortality and wielding magic isn't idealized to me, and we continually hear the Dalish admit they don't have all the facts about their past. And Merrill acknowledges that the clan isn't certain who summoned Audacity, addressing even they acknowledge the possibility that it could have been the Arlathan elves. If their view of their ancestors was so idealized as you claim, the ancient elves wouldn't even be in consideration for summoning a spirit during the war.

 

You can be in denial about the basic facts as much as you want, but that doesn't change the literal things that Dalish characters say about Arlathan. If you want to pick and choose examples, be my guest. We're done here.