273 réponses à ce sujet

[Gervaise]

I should point out that you are judging the ancient elves by your own standards and the standards of the Chantry.   Felassan makes this point to Briala when she says that what the Keeper did in summoning the demon and keeping there is wrong.   He says that the Dalish do not think of demons/spirits as evil but simply dangerous creatures that need to be treated with care (just as if you had captured a lion or bear).   He then suggests a better definition of their actions would be stupid.

 

Based on what he says, I'd assume that it is very likely the ancient elves did use spirits, benign or otherwise, in their magic, just as Tevinter did, and as Merrill rightly says, "all spirits are dangerous".   You only have to look at the Anders/Justice situation to see that.     However, spirit healers couldn't do their stronger healing magic without the aid of spirits.   Even the Chantry acknowledges that.   So I am sure in ancient Arlathan there were "good" mages who used spirits for beneficial means and "bad" mages who used spirits for more harmful ones.   The Keeper in Masked Empire didn't want the demon to do anything bad for him, just give him access to the eluvians, but the price of his co-operation was to make a choice over who would be the demon's victim.    To his credit, up to the point that Briala and company encounter him, the Keeper didn't want to sacrifice anyone so had refused to make a choice.   It may be that he would never have done so, because whilst he might not have had scruples about giving one of his prisoners over, he may have realised this would place the clan in even more danger.   

 

The elves who made the last stand on Sundermount would have been desperate and willing to agree to just about anything to harm the humans closing in on them.   Yet it says something that the demon there was still imprisoned, so whatever reason they had to summon it in the first place, apparently the price it demanded must have been too great for them to agree.   I wonder if that is what made the difference in the war between the elves and Tevinter.      The latter were willing to cross the line and do whatever it took to win.    That's not to say the elves were paragons, just that everyone has their limits.

[myahele]

I am pretty sure each clan is different from one another. With them only converging once every  years to trade stories, goods, people it's no wonder each clan we see is slightly different. But I guess it also depends on the country?

 

In DAO we have the option of killing traveling humans if they encroach too deep into dalish territories. It was mentioned that Antivan Dalish were alot more militant/ xenophobic. Orlaisian Dalish probably alot more xenophobic due to the fact that Orlais is home to Templars, etc. How many clans were slaughtered?

[LobselVith8]

Saying "spirits are dangerous" doesn't mean that she actually understands how spirits can be dangerous. She is blatantly incapable of actually grasping that a demon's plan can involve anything other than the thing directly in front of itself as a target - she treats them like dangerous animals, not dangerous people. 

 

Considering Merrill advises Hawke that you can gather intel from a spirit if you're careful, I don't see it that way.

 

She's the prime example of someone who uses the right words without actually "getting" it. 

 

Actually, I think Merrill gets it. That doesn't mean she's infallible, of course, but I view Merrill as an intelligent person who is quite informed about the dangers of spirits and the Beyond.

 

That has nothing to do with what I've said. Merill can't understand that demons are cunning. She can't even wrap her head around how they are cunning. That's why Audacity played her like a fiddle: because at no point did Merrill ever consider that she was anything but the creature's prime target and, in fact, it's only target for possession. The idea that Audacity was just using her to manipulate Marethari didn't even cross her mind. 

 

This is where you and I disagree. I don't blame Merrill for the actions of another grown adult; I'm not going to act as though Merrill is incapable of knowing how dangerous a spirit can be simply because another person fell prey to a spirit. I also don't expect Merrill to know what's going on in Marethari's mind, especially considering they are apart for years between Act II and III. Marethari was supposed to leave, and Merrill acknowledged her surprise that the clan was still in Sundermount when they were supposed to leave years prior.

 

Merrill had a naive, childish understanding of the situation: Audacity is only targeting her, the only thing it wants is to possess Merrill, and all that Merrill has to do to keep her clan safe is to keep herself away from Audacity. The idea that Audacity is actually targeting both her and Marethari, that all it wants to do is to keep the two separate and to try to manipulate their ill feelings toward one another to score one of them as a meatsuit is completely beyond them.

Merrill isn't at fault because Marethari let Audacity ride her, and I've never said that. Merrill is at fault for, as I've said repeatedly in this post, for not being able to understand or even consider the very sophisticated game that Audacity was playing. 

 

I don't see Merrill as naive or childish for not knowing what would happen in the future. It's not as though Merrill would know that Marethari wouldn't leave when she was supposed to, or that Marethari would release Audacity while Merrill was in Kirkwall. And all I'm reading from your post is that you consider Merrill as such because she didn't know that Audacity was manipulating the Keeper. This is where you and I disagree strongly.

 

There is nothing that requires Merrill to be psychic about Audacity's intent. It's literally using the most basic and elementary form of divide and conquer possible. But since Merril is incapable of wrapping her head around social politics, she's entirely incapable of dealing with any demon more complex than a rage demon, whose basic mode of thinking is "Hulk smash!". 

 

You're blaming Merrill for not knowing that Marethari was being manipulated (which would require her to know what was going on in another person's head, ergo, being psychic), and for not knowing that bad things would ensue as a result. I'm simply unable to reach a consensus with you about this because I don't see Merrill failing to realize that the Keeper was being manipulated as an example of a failure to grasp "social politics"; it's an example that Merrill is a person who is only capable of so much, despite her intellect.

 

Merrill failed, comically and miserably, in understanding the plot that Audacity was using. She failed to take any steps to counter that plot, and instead played right into its hands and enabled its schemes. She was such an incredible patsy that she enabled a demon trapped for millennia to escape. This is the highest possible order of failure when it comes to bargaining with demons. 

 

The fact that you're essentially blaming Merrill for the actions of another person is where you and I have to, again, disagree. I'm not going to blame Merrill for what Marethari did, I'm going to lay the blame at Marethari's feet. I don't expect Merrill to know everything, or to anticipate what would happen in the future. Her failure to do so simply makes her as fallible as everyone else in existence, even in the fictional realm of Thedas. 

 

The lore, on the other hand, has continually pointed out that the Dalish are quite similar in several important ways, particularly in their hypocrisy and xenophobia. Seeing yet another hypocritical and xenophobic Dalish tribe is not a lore breaking moment. 

 

This isn't about vilifying the Dalish - this is about calling a spade a spade.

 

Actually, the lore reads that the clans can vary quite a bit, which is why one Dalish acknowledges his preference for the nomadic lifestyle, why one Dalish hunters describes how different the clans can be to Gentivi, and even how there are at least two philosophical schools that the Dalish adhere to as a way of life - the Way of Three Trees, and the Way of Peace.

 

Only in your head have I condemned anyone. I said that we've seen 4 out of 5 mages deal directly with spirits, contrary to the ostensibly "no spirit" stance of the Dalish. This isn't about blame. This is about literally stating facts that we've seen directly in-game or in the books. 

 

You're the person who said: "This isn't about vilifying the Dalish - this is about calling a spade a spade." You're citing a few people, and using it to paint all of the Dalish in the same way. I see that as condemning the Dalish as a whole for the actions of a few individuals.

[In Exile]

This is simply false. We haven't seen any Dalish clans capture and abuse the PC and their party on sight before and then consider just executing them outright.

 

No, it isn't. We see every single Dalish clan we meet do something similar.

 

The opening of the DA:O Dalish Origin is about possibility of brutally executing two humans who you and Tamlen had the misfortune of running across. 

 

When you first meet the Dalish in DA:O (e.g. as a CE or human), they threaten you with immediate execution if you do not turn back, relenting only if you either force your way to Zathrian (where the game forces you to reveal you are a GW) or you reveal you are a GW directly. 

 

When you meet the Sabrae clan in DA2, you are again threatened to turn back, until you mention that you're running errands. 

There is also the codex entry that Father Gentivi has about his encounter with the Dalish, which is on the same spectrum,

 

This clan was more directly violent, whereas the other clans we see are more threatening, but the attitude is the same. 

 

 

 

Keeper Thelhen says of the city elves, "The poor creatures in the alienages you think of as elves are but poor cousins, lost to use forever. Some clans might accept a few of them to strengthen their numbers or out of a misguided sense of pity, but they are not our people" and "If you and Gaspard slew each other, and the war killed every human in Orlais, and burned every alienage to the ground... then we would be willing to return to Halamshiral."

 

That is a sentiment we haven't seen from any Dalish Elves before, even ones hostile to City Elves (which not all of them are such as Marethari and Paivel). Velanna has no respect for them because she believes they are spineless and have forgotten who they are. She gives them an elven annulment so they remember. That's a very different sentiment. And Keeper Thelhen explicitly other Dalish clans taking in other elves, the very thing the clans we've seen do.

 

Now this is the part where you are completely wrong, because the DA:O codex is clear that this is a fundamental Dalish belief. From their own city elf codex:

 

"We tell the children that the elvhen are strong, that we are a proud people, but they hear of these city elves who choose to toil under the humans' heavy hand. How do we teach them pride when they know there are others who would allow themselves to be trampled into the dust? So we tell them that these city elves are to be pitied, that they have given up on their people, given up their heritage. We tell them that some people are so used to being controlled that, when freed, they know not what to do with themselves. They are weak and afraid--afraid of the unfamiliar, afraid of our life of wandering. Above all, they are afraid even to hope that one day we may have a home of our own."

 

This is exactly what Thelhen says: that the CEs are pitied, that they are not "evlhen". That is the first part of your quote, the view being fundamental to what the Dalish believe. 

 

Now as for the second part, about the humans all being exterminated so that the Dalish can take over the Dales. That's also a belief that's lifted right out of the DA:O codex: 

 

"In time, the human empires will crumble. We have seen it happen countless times. Until then, we wait, we keep to the wild border lands, we raise halla and build aravels and present a moving target to the humans around us. We try to keep hold of the old ways, to relearn what was forgotten ... For when the human kingdoms are gone, we must be ready to teach the others what it means to be elves."

 

The belief that the humans will collapse on themselves, kill each other, and allow the Dalish to move in is again part of their central belief as a people. The language isn't as inflamatory as the one that Thelhen uses, but it's the exact same belief. 

 

 

Believing that City Elves are not "their people" doesn't mean the same thing as "I wish you all would die." And even that is not a universal attitude amongst the Dalish. Merrill even says she considers the plight of the City Elves in the Alienage to be the plight of "our people" in one of her conversation with Fenris. And in another she tells Fenris that the Tevinter slaves should go to the Dalish for help. And in the case of Alarith in the Denerim aleiange, that's basically exactly what happened. And Joshmael tells Tallis "The elves are all one people" in Dragon Age: Redemption.

 

Thelhen doesn't say that he wishes all of the CEs would die - he says that he wishes all of the humans would die. 

 

And as much as you give examples of specific (and kind) Dalish characters from the games, we have clear codex entries about what the general beliefs of the clains are in the setting.

Sorry, but you're wrong. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Only in your head does this irrelevant point - about the Dalish, no less - have anything to do with what I said, which was that the codex reveals that the Arlathan elves expressed a level of racism that is unheard of against humans.

 

What? How can it be unheard of? The Dalish codex that mentions it in the first place compares it to the racism that City Elves face in the Alienages. And that's a level of racism much lesser than the racism the elves faced in the Tevinter Imperium. World of Thedas makes it quite clear that elven hostility towards humans manifested as generally withdrawing themselves from them.

 

I dislike it when people lie. You used the dialogue option as proof in your argument that Orlesians enslave the elves. But now, of course, that argument is no longer convenient in your backtracking. Don't worry, though. I've bookmarked this post and will bring it up each and every time you try to argue, from now on, that the treatment of elves in Orlais is anything like slavery.

 

 

Arlathan had slaves, whether or not they used the word, and whether or not they sacrified them for blood magic rituals.

 

 

 

I don't know about anyone else, but I've always argued that Orlais servants and Tevinter's slaves are not equivalent.

 

The evidence is overwhelming. Zathrian isn't a Circle-trained mage. He knows blood magic. He knows an ancient ritual to bind a forest spirit. His only sources of learning magic, besides training via other Keepers, is the recovery of ancient elven magic/lore. That magic can only be elven.

 

We have Zathrian using a blood magic ritual - he admits outright that it is blood magic - that he used to pretend that he was immortal (lying and making an absolute mockery of the most cherished beliefs of his people) whose only possible source is ancient elven magic.

 

Or he could have learned it the same way Merrill did.

 

 

[Mistic]

Saying "spirits are dangerous" doesn't mean that she actually understands how spirits can be dangerous. She is blatantly incapable of actually grasping that a demon's plan can involve anything other than the thing directly in front of itself as a target - she treats them like dangerous animals, not dangerous people.

 

That's actually a very interesting interpretation, because it explains two apparently antagonistic views: that Merrill knows very well that spirits/demons are dangerous, and that she is naive. Ok, maybe she does know it, but mistakes the kind of danger they represent. After all, Audacity wasn't the first time she screwed up in that regard (Night Terrors).

 

We also have codex evidence of the virulent, 1939-era Germany racism direct toward humans by the elves of Arlathan. 

 

Sorry, I have to ask: which codex?

 

We have textual support for the proposition that ancient Arlathan treated a portion of its population as slaves, allowed its military officers to murder them without provocation (recall what the Chevaliers do), and otherwise limited them to ghettos and servant roles in society. We presumably have the same occasional purges that the Alienages are subject to, and the general demeaning attitude directed toward them.

 

Wait, wait, wait, what?! What Felassan is doing in chapter 14 of TME is reminding Briala of the reality. The armor piercing question was "who scrubbled the floors?" (still a question that even today we should ask ourselves, mm?). The only way to accept what you say is by taking him literally when he says "every atrocity you seek to avenge for your broken people in the alienages, elven nobles committed upon elven servants". I mean, I no doubt that elven nobles were in general nasty bastards (like most nobles in Thedas, yeah), but it would be far too far-fetched to assume that they were exact copies of Orlesian nobility.

 

For example, it would be stupid to think they had Alienages and ghettos, since those are used to segregate minorities. The best example of a possible Arlathan would be current Halamshiral, where the nobles live in the luxurious sector while the lower class works in the slums. That I can see.

 

The elves who made the last stand on Sundermount would have been desperate and willing to agree to just about anything to harm the humans closing in on them.   Yet it says something that the demon there was still imprisoned, so whatever reason they had to summon it in the first place, apparently the price it demanded must have been too great for them to agree.   I wonder if that is what made the difference in the war between the elves and Tevinter.      The latter were willing to cross the line and do whatever it took to win.    That's not to say the elves were paragons, just that everyone has their limits.

 

Mm, interesting. Maybe it could be that way. We know for sure that Tevinter has been always willing to pay the price in blood (other people's blood, of course) to achieve power.

[In Exile]

 

What? How can it be unheard of? The Dalish codex that mentions it in the first place compares it to the racism that City Elves face in the Alienages. And that's a level of racism much lesser than the racism the elves faced in the Tevinter Imperium. World of Thedas makes it quite clear that elven hostility towards humans manifested as generally withdrawing themselves from them.

 

That was very poor phrasing on my part. When I said humans, I wasn't thinking (and didn't mean) humans in the setting. I meant "us", i.e., the people on the forum, and our 21st century liberal society. 

 

 

Or he could have learned it the same way Merrill did.

 

Putting aside the much greater complexity of the spell that Zathrian used - binding his own life to a spirit, actually summoning a spirit, versus just replacing lyrium - the source for Merrill still had to be Dalish (or ancient elven) lore. That would be the only source available to her, since we know she isn't Circle trained. 

 

That's actually a very interesting interpretation, because it explains two apparently antagonistic views: that Merrill knows very well that spirits/demons are dangerous, and that she is naive. Ok, maybe she does know it, but mistakes the kind of danger they represent. After all, Audacity wasn't the first time she screwed up in that regard (Night Terrors).

 

I think a lot of people in general have a lot of difficulty with the thought of demons as being actually cunning, because actual cunning is so very benign and subtle. Audacity is really the only example of a demon we've ever seen with a thoughtful long-game. Even the Pride demon that's wearing Uldred like a meatsuit had a very inelegant plan: force demons into mages, raise an army, and raise hell. 

 

Wait, wait, wait, what?! What Felassan is doing in chapter 14 of TME is reminding Briala of the reality. The armor piercing question was "who scrubbled the floors?" (still a question that even today we should ask ourselves, mm?). The only way to accept what you say is by taking him literally when he says "every atrocity you seek to avenge for your broken people in the alienages, elven nobles committed upon elven servants". I mean, I no doubt that elven nobles were in general nasty bastards (like most nobles in Thedas, yeah), but it would be far too far-fetched to assume that they were exact copies of Orlesian nobility.

 

For example, it would be stupid to think they had Alienages and ghettos, since those are used to segregate minorities. The best example of a possible Arlathan would be current Halamshiral, where the nobles live in the luxurious sector while the lower class works in the slums. That I can see.

Servant ghettoes were not uncommon historically. We've also seen clear examples IRL of actual caste systems (and we see that in DA:O with the dwarves), so it's not impossible that the Arlathan elves simply had a "servant" caste. 

The majority of atrocities we hear occur in the Alienages are not derivative of race, really. Historically, we see the same thing with class. 

 

Sorry, I have to ask: which codex?

 

It's the Arlathan: Part One Codex Entry:

 

"The humans first arrived from Par Vollen to the north. Called shemlen, or "quicklings," by the ancients, the humans were pitiful creatures whose lives blinked by in an instant ... Our ancestors came to look upon the humans as parasites, which I understand is similar to the way the humans see our people in the cities. The ancient elves immediately moved to close Elvhenan off from the humans, for fear that this quickening effect would crumble the civilization." 

 

This is the kind of language you would hear in propaganda at a KKK meeting, or at a rally led by the National Socialists in Germany. 

[The Ascendant]

My Dalish Mage Inquisitor will respect all elves and admonish any Dalish clan who thinks less of City Elves. They are far more numerous and an easy source of manpower. I will recruit the elven servants as spies to learn all the nobles secrets and use my Dalish card to recruit as many clans as I can. I will support Celene in return for all of the Dales to be given to me. I shall remake the Dales and make it open for all elves. Discrimination shall not be tolerated. Freedom of religion will be guaranteed. And then the Eluvians shall bemine. I shall then rediscover the secrets of immortality and rule the Dales forever. Muwhaha.

[LobselVith8]

I dislike it when people lie. You used the dialogue option as proof in your argument that Orlesians enslave the elves. But now, of course, that argument is no longer convenient in your backtracking. Don't worry, though. I've bookmarked this post and will bring it up each and every time you try to argue, from now on, that the treatment of elves in Orlais is anything like slavery.

 

I've addressed that the elven Warden saw it as slavery when the conversation with Leliana came up, and I was trying to clarify what I thought another poster meant when this line of thought was brought up. I also addressed that Felassan compared Arlathan to Orlais.

 

And we're back to hypocrisy. We have clear evidence from every single time any DA media has portrayed the Dalish that they do use magic involving spirits, and if it wasn't for the ambiguity surrounding Velanna, 100% of the Dalish mages we would have seen would have made deals with spirits or otherwise used them. 

 

My issue with you is that you're using a few individuals to condemn the entirety of the Dalish.

 

And by "100%", would that include Dalish mages like Aneirin the Healer and Elora? Or Merrill's replacement as First to the Sabrae Clan?

 

The evidence is overwhelming. Zathrian isn't a Circle-trained mage. He knows blood magic. He knows an ancient ritual to bind a forest spirit. His only sources of learning magic, besides training via other Keepers, is the recovery of ancient elven magic/lore. That magic can only be elven. 

 

There's no dialogue saying or implying anything of the kind. Basically, there's no actual evidence for this.

 

We have textual support for the proposition that ancient Arlathan treated a portion of its population as slaves, allowed its military officers to murder them without provocation (recall what the Chevaliers do), and otherwise limited them to ghettos and servant roles in society. We presumably have the same occasional purges that the Alienages are subject to, and the general demeaning attitude directed toward them. 

 

You mean dialogue from one single character who compared Arlathan to Orlais, in contrast to your earlier post comparing Arlathan to Tevinter.

 

Arlathan had slaves, whether or not they used the word, and whether or not they sacrified them for blood magic rituals.  

 

You seem to be inferring quite a bit from the comparison with Orlais.

 

You can be in denial about the basic facts as much as you want, but that doesn't change the literal things that Dalish characters say about Arlathan. If you want to pick and choose examples, be my guest. We're done here. 

 

Actually, I don't think ancient Arlathan criminalizes the modern Dalish clans, regardless of what the truth actually is. The two societies aren't the same. Aside from the lore about the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, I don't see how the modern Dalish are reflected by the actions of their distant ancestors.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

 

No, it isn't. We see every single Dalish clan we meet do something similar.

 

The opening of the DA:O Dalish Origin is about possibility of brutally executing two humans who you and Tamlen had the misfortune of running across. 

 

When you first meet the Dalish in DA:O (e.g. as a CE or human), they threaten you with immediate execution if you do not turn back, relenting only if you either force your way to Zathrian (where the game forces you to reveal you are a GW) or you reveal you are a GW directly. 

 

When you meet the Sabrae clan in DA2, you are again threatened to turn back, until you mention that you're running errands. 

There is also the codex entry that Father Gentivi has about his encounter with the Dalish, which is on the same spectrum,

 

This clan was more directly violent, whereas the other clans we see are more threatening, but the attitude is the same. 

 

Warning someone that somewhere is off limits is not the same as kidnapping and brutalizing someone.

 

Now this is the part where you are completely wrong, because the DA:O codex is clear that this is a fundamental Dalish belief. From their own city elf codex:

 

"We tell the children that the elvhen are strong, that we are a proud people, but they hear of these city elves who choose to toil under the humans' heavy hand. How do we teach them pride when they know there are others who would allow themselves to be trampled into the dust? So we tell them that these city elves are to be pitied, that they have given up on their people, given up their heritage. We tell them that some people are so used to being controlled that, when freed, they know not what to do with themselves. They are weak and afraid--afraid of the unfamiliar, afraid of our life of wandering. Above all, they are afraid even to hope that one day we may have a home of our own."

 

This is exactly what Thelhen says: that the CEs are pitied, that they are not "evlhen". That is the first part of your quote, the view being fundamental to what the Dalish believe. 

 

Now as for the second part, about the humans all being exterminated so that the Dalish can take over the Dales. That's also a belief that's lifted right out of the DA:O codex: 

 

"In time, the human empires will crumble. We have seen it happen countless times. Until then, we wait, we keep to the wild border lands, we raise halla and build aravels and present a moving target to the humans around us. We try to keep hold of the old ways, to relearn what was forgotten ... For when the human kingdoms are gone, we must be ready to teach the others what it means to be elves."

 

The belief that the humans will collapse on themselves, kill each other, and allow the Dalish to move in is again part of their central belief as a people. The language isn't as inflamatory as the one that Thelhen uses, but it's the exact same belief. 

 

 

You act as if the codexes are always meant to universally represent the entirety of a culture's perspective on something rather than the biases of the author. There are other Dalish codexes that have a variety of dissenting opinions. For example, the Dalish Codex on Aravels says:

 

"The Keeper says that one day the Dalish will find a home that we can call our own. But why? Why should we tie ourselves to stone constructions like the humans and the dwarves? What is wrong with the life we have now? We owe nothing to anyone, we have no master but ourselves, and we go where the hall and the gods take us. There is nothing more wonderful than sitting on an aravel as it flies through the forest, pulled by our halla. We are truly free, for the first time in our people's history. Why should we change this?"

 

Does this mean that the Dalish as a whole actually don't ever want to settle down? No. It means there are conflicting opinions.

 

There are a lot of Chantry centric codex entries, but entries by Sister Petrine and Brother Genetivi don't always have the same perspective. And if the author's of codexes disagree with the Dalish characters, that doesn't mean one overrides the other. The Hahren of one clan in one age who is the source behind a codex is not more authoritative than the Hahren of another that we see in person and vice versa. Particular in the case of someone like the Dalish where we are told that all clans are different.

 

And of course they would want to wait for the human empires to collapse. Human nations are what prevent them from setting up in any one place. That doesn't mean the codex hopes for a  time "once the humans are all dead." In fact that wouldn't make any sense considering that Hahren Paivel tells the player in the Dalish Origin (Origins are just as important for introducing the player to the culture) that the city elves are important because they will teach the Dalish to understand the humans so they can live in peace. That wouldn't make sense if the humans are dead.

 

Thelhen doesn't say that he wishes all of the CEs would die - he says that he wishes all of the humans would die. 

 

And as much as you give examples of specific (and kind) Dalish characters from the games, we have clear codex entries about what the general beliefs of the clains are in the setting.

Sorry, but you're wrong. 

 

 

Of course he does. He says if alienages would burn down the Dalish would return. Aleianges are full of city elves. He also says that City Elves are lost to them "forever."  The hope of reunification with the city elves to teach them the old ways is completely absent from his world view. What Thelhen says is that City elves are pitied but it is misguided pity. He holds them only in contempt.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Putting aside the much greater complexity of the spell that Zathrian used - binding his own life to a spirit, actually summoning a spirit, versus just replacing lyrium - the source for Merrill still had to be Dalish (or ancient elven) lore. That would be the only source available to her, since we know she isn't Circle trained.

 

Merrill says she learned it directly from a demon.

[LobselVith8]

My Dalish Mage Inquisitor will respect all elves and admonish any Dalish clan who thinks less of City Elves. They are far more numerous and an easy source of manpower. I will recruit the elven servants as spies to learn all the nobles secrets and use my Dalish card to recruit as many clans as I can. I will support Celene in return for all of the Dales to be given to me. I shall remake the Dales and make it open for all elves. Discrimination shall not be tolerated. Freedom of religion will be guaranteed. And then the Eluvians shall bemine. I shall then rediscover the secrets of immortality and rule the Dales forever. Muwhaha.

 

The hatred goes both ways; some of the City Elves see their brethren who leave the Alienage as "flat ears", and look upon the Dalish as savages. Remember the City Elf Origin? There are also the plethora of racist humans who, as Duncan points out, view the elves as "less than people", and can't be dissuaded from those racist leanings (as Duncan admits he's tried in the past).

 

Thedas can be a very ugly place.

[Mistic]

I think a lot of people in general have a lot of difficulty with the thought of demons as being actually cunning, because actual cunning is so very benign and subtle. Audacity is really the only example of a demon we've ever seen with a thoughtful long-game. Even the Pride demon that's wearing Uldred like a meatsuit had a very inelegant plan: force demons into mages, raise an army, and raise hell. 

 

True. Chantry people don't fare better in that regard.

 

Servant ghettoes were not uncommon historically. We've also seen clear examples IRL of actual caste systems (and we see that in DA:O with the dwarves), so it's not impossible that the Arlathan elves simply had a "servant" caste. 

The majority of atrocities we hear occur in the Alienages are not derivative of race, really. Historically, we see the same thing with class. 

 

Well, yeah, but you weren't wondering, you were stating, and you used only Orlais as the template for Arlathan. Truh be told, I agree that Orzammar could provide a better example.

 

It's the Arlathan: Part One Codex Entry:

 

"The humans first arrived from Par Vollen to the north. Called shemlen, or "quicklings," by the ancients, the humans were pitiful creatures whose lives blinked by in an instant ... Our ancestors came to look upon the humans as parasites, which I understand is similar to the way the humans see our people in the cities. The ancient elves immediately moved to close Elvhenan off from the humans, for fear that this quickening effect would crumble the civilization." 

 

This is the kind of language you would hear in propaganda at a KKK meeting, or at a rally led by the National Socialists in Germany.

 

Ah, yes, that codex. Very illustrative. Of course, between the "quicklings because they aged and died" and the "parasites" parts, don't forget the parts about:

-Elves trying to use diplomacy to deal with the humans to no avail.

-Humans bringing diseases to elven lands.

-And of course, the quickening.

 

The first two are very similar to the European colonization of the Americas. Of course, the "elves are diplomats, humans are warriors" is a common trope in fantasy and can be considered whitewashing from the elves' side, but the diseases thing I can buy. As for the Quickening, that's the most divisive issue here.

 

If it's pure legend, the elves who believe it are a bunch of racists that can't understand how the world works. However, if it's real, then think about it, how would we react if suddenly elves appeared and because of their presence our lifespans were cut in half?

[The Ascendant]

After much soul searching I have come to the following conclusion. As much as I love the city elf origin, my love for magic surpasses the sympathy for the elves. So here is my new canon.

1) Elf Mage Warden, romance Morrigan. Chantry perspective on magic

2) Mage Hawke, romance Merrill. Apostate view on magic

3) Dalish Mage Inquisitor, romance Vivienne(if possible). Dalish view on magic

This way I can support both mages and elves. Magic is Might!

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I know the question was on the last page now, but I found that the reference to the Old Gods encouraging the Magisters to attack Arlathan is in that  one big informative Gaider post we keep going back to.

[myahele]

Interesting information....what if Ancient Elves (with the help of thier gods) sealed the Old God's away?

 

If they (and humans) can seal Forbidden Ones, why not the Old God's? I think they may have been sealed while they were hibernating deep underground. Their consciousness/soul, etc is stuck in the Fade and can't enter their bodies to awaken as a result?

[The Ascendant]

I've been playing as a Sith Inquisitor in swtor and one thing has really interested me in the force is the concept of essence transfer. Essentially the soul of a Sith would possess a body and live while their original body died due to old age, assassination or corruption of the dark side. We know Archdemons do this if they are killed by anyone other than a Grey Warden and we know Corypheus used this to escape. What if the elven dreamers did this? If their bodies were killed they could exist in the Fade and possess a new body like a spirit or a demon? Just an idea.

[LobselVith8]

After much soul searching I have come to the following conclusion. As much as I love the city elf origin, my love for magic surpasses the sympathy for the elves. So here is my new canon.

1) Elf Mage Warden, romance Morrigan. Chantry perspective on magic

2) Mage Hawke, romance Merrill. Apostate view on magic

3) Dalish Mage Inquisitor, romance Vivienne(if possible). Dalish view on magic

This way I can support both mages and elves. Magic is Might!

 

That's one of the apparent benefits of the Dragon Age Keep: the ability to reshape your protagonist's narrative during the Fifth Blight and their actions as you see fit. I romanced the same two companions with my prior canon protagonists. My Surana Warden didn't share the Chantry's perspective on magic, however, and I played him as an atheist (so he didn't see eye to eye with the organization on quite a bit).

 

I'm also looking to play as a Dalish Inquisitor with a traditional view on magic: avoiding schools of magic that involve spirits, and viewing all spirits as dangerous. I don't think I'll be romancing anyone, however. I find it appealing to play as a Dalish elf helping his elven brethren, being in an unlikely alliance with Cassandra and her people - a group who have been enemies of the Elvhen for centuries, and traveling to the Dales (especially the Emerald Graves).

 

I've been playing as a Sith Inquisitor in swtor and one thing has really interested me in the force is the concept of essence transfer. Essentially the soul of a Sith would possess a body and live while their original body died due to old age, assassination or corruption of the dark side. We know Archdemons do this if they are killed by anyone other than a Grey Warden and we know Corypheus used this to escape. What if the elven dreamers did this? If their bodies were killed they could exist in the Fade and possess a new body like a spirit or a demon? Just an idea.

 

I figured Corypheus was able to do it because he's technically a darkspawn, and he jumped into the body of a person with the taint.

[The Ascendant]

Don't forget Flemeth did this to her daughters to survive. Wait a minute what if Flemeth is an Ancient Elf! Think about it. Morrigan saidthat she wwasn't an abomination, blood mage or human. She could be an elf who changed her appearance to that of a human. Remember all offspring of a human/elf union are human. This would also explain her connection to the Dalish. Probably unlikely but still I wonder.

[Assassino01]

Well, instead of throwing myself into battle (aka debate) just yet I think I'll just throw in my two cents on the original topic.

 

While I haven't read The Masked Empire I've read enough comments on it while lurking around on this forum to get a general sense of its comments upon elves, prsent and past, and I've made up my mind about it to an extent.

 

To me it makes sense for the Ancient elves to have had class differences in their society. All real cultures develope them. Everyone can't be a noble or wealthy. Someone has to do the menial dirty work, somebody has to be soldiers or merchants and the host of other roles a propper society demands.

 

But even so I still think the elven society was more "good" than the current countries in Thedas. At least Tevinter and Orlais. We've got no evidence that the ancient elves practiced slavery, nor is there any indication that they used their servants in vile blood Magic rites or some such. All we know is that some nobles mistreated their underlings. Which will happen in any society no matter how advanced.

 

Furthermore, while we know very little of how the Ancient elven empire truly functioned it seems to me like it was far less warlike than the human empires that replaced it. Given that it allowed human nations to flourish for thousands of years on lands they had previously held, before they began to clash With Tevinter. It seems to me that the most rational course of action for the elves would have been to attack the humans almost as soon as they arrived in Thedas. Given the impact it had on the elves' lifespans. Instead the elves gave up lands retreated and allowed human Kingdoms to flourish for centuries before tensions became war.

 

That isn't to say I belive the Ancient elves were perfect. But it seems people take a few comments from some character in a single novel to mean the Ancient elves were horrible and comparable to ancient Tevinter.

 

Just my thoughts though.

 

And do excuse any spelling mistakes (unless they're truly terrible). It's been a while since I last wrote anything in English longer than a sentence or two.

[Gwydden]

That's one of the apparent benefits of the Dragon Age Keep: the ability to reshape your protagonist's narrative during the Fifth Blight and their actions as you see fit. I romanced the same two companions with my prior canon protagonists. My Surana Warden didn't share the Chantry's perspective on magic, however, and I played him as an atheist (so he didn't see eye to eye with the organization on quite a bit).

 

I'm also looking to play as a Dalish Inquisitor with a traditional view on magic: avoiding schools of magic that involve spirits, and viewing all spirits as dangerous. I don't think I'll be romancing anyone, however. I find it appealing to play as a Dalish elf helping his elven brethren, being in an unlikely alliance with Cassandra and her people - a group who have been enemies of the Elvhen for centuries, and traveling to the Dales (especially the Emerald Graves).

You know, this kind of attitude is exactly what I don't like about many elves. Their tendency to see all humans as the enemy is not only quite problematic in and of itself, it is also self damaging.

[LobselVith8]

You know, this kind of attitude is exactly what I don't like about many elves. Their tendency to see all humans as the enemy is not only quite problematic in and of itself, it is also self damaging.

 

It's a matter of survival because humans are often threats to the Elvhen - the elven pantheon is outlawed, elven culture is criminalized, human lords or lynch mobs run off the clan if they stay too long in one region, and templars would hunt down the clans for their free mages (which may or may not be an issue now, with the Mage-Templar War). Humans and elves also blame the other for the war that lead to the fall and occupation of the Dales.

 

It's not as though the Dalish being wary of outsiders is without reason, despite how some players dislike the Dalish for being cautious and apprehensive towards the previous two protagonists (who were exceptions to the rule). Cassandra and her people representing a group that the Dalish historical account blames for invading the Dales - and starting the war - is sufficient reason for an elven protagonist to be wary in and of itself.

[Gorguz]

@Lobsel: I'm going to play as an elven mage in my first run of DA:I. I'd like ancient elven magic to come back, and to me ancient elves are still the most magically advanced kind on Thedas. If I'm saying that ancient elves maybe similar to magisters, it is because the games and the lore made me think so, not because I don't like elves. Exile is right, all dalish mages we meet have some story with "spirits". Sure, they can say "all spirits are dangerous", but smokers say smoking it's not healty too.

[Mistic]

It's not as though the Dalish being wary of outsiders is without reason, despite how some players dislike the Dalish for being cautious and apprehensive towards the previous two protagonists (who were exceptions to the rule). Cassandra and her people representing a group that the Dalish historical account blames for invading the Dales - and starting the war - is sufficient reason for an elven protagonist to be wary in and of itself.

 

That's actually true and something that many players overlook. And I wouldn't rule out the PCs as exceptions. Depending on the characters' actions, every fear that the Dalish have about outsiders can come true.

-DA:O: The outsiders can end up siding with the werewolves and wiping out or turning the entire clan.

-DA2: If the wrong choices are made, Hawke can end up killing the remaining clan members. Interestingly enough, the correct choice is "I'll take responsibility". No negotiation, no trying to be more badass than the others, just owning up and admitting that sometimes you have to yield, even if you think you're right, to avoid further problems.

 

TME provides us with another example. Yes, the clan members were jerks to Celene and company, yes, they were stupid enough to summon a demon, but let's not forget that it was the otusiders who thought it was a good idea to make a deal with a demon and in the end caused the deaths of the whole clan. Even worse, Gaspard was following the trail, and in the end reached the campsite, so demon or not, Celene and her group were already bringing the troubles of war to them, exactly what the clan feared.

 

The Dalish we've seen so far tend to be jerks or neutral to outsiders. Since people forget neutral every time, they look like jerks in general. I know that when we play games we don't like when people are jerks to our protagonists without reason (I guess that's because in real life people tend to be jerks to each other with little reason too and we're sick and tired of it). However, being jerks doesn't mean that they can't be right. That's a logical fallacy. The trope Jerkass Has A Point exists for a reason.

[Dean_the_Young]

Fortunately(?), that works both ways. The elves and Dalish can live up to their darker reputations as well. Murder of innocents? Dark and heathen rituals? Forbidden magics?