273 réponses à ce sujet

[Assassino01]

Fortunately(?), that works both ways. The elves and Dalish can live up to their darker reputations as well. Murder of innocents? Dark and heathen rituals? Forbidden magics?

 

Well, we know the Dalish don't indulge in "dark heathen rituals" as you call them. That is simply chantry propaganda to keep the city elves from running away. As for the murder of innocents... Yes, I'm sure the Dalish do from time to time. You can do this at the beginning of the Dalish origin after all. As for forbidden magics? Considering that the Dalish don't really consider any magic "forbidden" I'd say they do, and yet they don't.

[Xilizhra]

Fortunately(?), that works both ways. The elves and Dalish can live up to their darker reputations as well. Murder of innocents? Dark and heathen rituals? Forbidden magics?

In no greater proportion than in human society, not actually bad things in and of themselves (at least not the "heathen" part, and "dark" isn't that descriptive), and quite unlikely because the Dalish are actually more restrictive in their magical practices than the Circles in some ways, respectively.

[Gorguz]

 the Dalish are actually more restrictive in their magical practices than the Circles in some ways.

Hm, can you expand this point? in which way the dalish are more restrictive?

[Gwydden]

It's a matter of survival because humans are often threats to the Elvhen - the elven pantheon is outlawed, elven culture is criminalized, human lords or lynch mobs run off the clan if they stay too long in one region, and templars would hunt down the clans for their free mages (which may or may not be an issue now, with the Mage-Templar War). Humans and elves also blame the other for the war that lead to the fall and occupation of the Dales.

 

It's not as though the Dalish being wary of outsiders is without reason, despite how some players dislike the Dalish for being cautious and apprehensive towards the previous two protagonists (who were exceptions to the rule). Cassandra and her people representing a group that the Dalish historical account blames for invading the Dales - and starting the war - is sufficient reason for an elven protagonist to be wary in and of itself.

Oh, sure, they have plenty of reason to be wary. But looking at all humans as enemies is not a good idea. Letting them prove themselves, sure. Distrusting them and watching them closely until they have, even more so. The PC can easily be a racist jerk. But the elves often seem to refuse to accept help from friendly humans simply because they are human.

 

What grated on my nerves the most reading TME, was not only that Briala quickly turned to seeing humans this way, and she couldn't have cared less about the welfare of human commoners who, at best, were slightly better off than the elves. They can play the arrogance card all that they want, but at the end of the day, the elves won't get a think without collaborating with humans. They're best chance in DAI will likely be allying with the Inquisition, a predominately human organization with a potentially human (and likely not elven) leader.

[Xilizhra]

Hm, can you expand this point? in which way the dalish are more restrictive?

In banning or strongly disapproving of all magic having to do with spirits.

 

They're best chance in DAI will likely be allying with the Inquisition, a predominately human organization with a potentially human (and likely not elven) leader.

Not in my universe.

[Gwydden]

Not in my universe.

I did say "potentially" and "likely" 

[Gorguz]

In banning or strongly disapproving of all magic having to do with spirits.

Well then, they are way less restrictive than the Circle. The dalish ban you, if you make a deal with a pride demon. In the Circle mages and templars want your skin. And I'm not talking about possession.

And again, the dalish keepers are quite open to spirits and blood magic. They may say something, but they are acting the other way.

 

Now that I think about it, how did Marethari send us in the fade in act 2? She doesn't tell us, but we know that mages can access the fade with lyrium or blood. Now, Feynriel is a somniari, so rules may be different for him. But I suspect that she used Feynriel blood in the ritual. I mean, to send a mage in the fade, Jowan has to bleed a person dry. What kind of powerful magic did the Keeper use to send 4 people (not even mages) in the fade?

[Xilizhra]

Well then, they are way less restrictive than the Circle. The dalish ban you, if you make a deal with a pride demon. In the Circle mages and templars want your skin. And I'm not talking about possession.

And again, the dalish keepers are quite open to spirits and blood magic. They may say something, but they are acting the other way.

 

Now that I think about it, how did Marethari send us in the fade in act 2? She doesn't tell us, but we know that mages can access the fade with lyrium or blood. Now, Feynriel is a somniari, so rules may be different for him. But I suspect that she used Feynriel blood in the ritual. I mean, to send a mage in the fade, Jowan has to bleed a person dry. What kind of powerful magic did the Keeper use to send 4 people (not even mages) in the fade?

A ritual the Circle never had?

[LobselVith8]

@Lobsel: I'm going to play as an elven mage in my first run of DA:I. I'd like ancient elven magic to come back, and to me ancient elves are still the most magically advanced kind on Thedas. If I'm saying that ancient elves maybe similar to magisters, it is because the games and the lore made me think so, not because I don't like elves. Exile is right, all dalish mages we meet have some story with "spirits". Sure, they can say "all spirits are dangerous", but smokers say smoking it's not healty too.

 

Not all Dalish mages, which was my earlier point: the Dalish mages Elora and Aneirin the Healer don't consort with spirits or use magic that involves spirits, and neither does Merrill's replacement as First in Act III.

 

I don't dismiss the fact that some go against the Dalish tradition of avoiding schools of magic that involve spirits (similar to Circle mages who practice blood magic, or templars who cross the line in a multitude of ways) but I don't think those exceptions represent the entirety of Dalish mages, either (any more than they do for the mages or the templars).

[myahele]

Maybe Marethari used a combination of herbs + magic? In TME Felassan used herbs to knock himself out and go to the fade. Then again he's a dreamer and those herbs may have acted to induce sleep.

[LobselVith8]

Oh, sure, they have plenty of reason to be wary. But looking at all humans as enemies is not a good idea. Letting them prove themselves, sure. Distrusting them and watching them closely until they have, even more so. The PC can easily be a racist jerk. But the elves often seem to refuse to accept help from friendly humans simply because they are human.

 

Honestly, I don't think that's necessarily the case with every clan. All the clans are different, and their treatment of humans varies. We have a Dalish clan who adopted a human infant who was abandoned by her child (who became Aveline the Knight), we have the clans signing a treaty to aid the Grey Wardens in protecting human civilization during the Blight; in one clan, we have Zathrian willing to honor the treaty if The Warden can end the curse that has crippled half of his clan with lycanthropy, we have Elora willing to accept aid in helping the halla, Athras is willing to accept help in finding out the truth about Danyla, and even the young Cammen is willing to receive assistance with his romantic endeavor for a young woman he's in love with.

 

It doesn't seem often that a "friendly" non-Dalish encounters the clan. It's likely centuries of hostile encounters with Andrastians attempting conversion to the human religion, mobs of angry humans trying to drive the elves out, or templars hunting mages. The protagonist seems to be the exception to the rule, which is why the demeanor of Zathrian's clan changes once The Warden starts helping Dalish in need (thereby providing that he or she is a friend).

 

What grated on my nerves the most reading TME, was not only that Briala quickly turned to seeing humans this way, and she couldn't have cared less about the welfare of human commoners who, at best, were slightly better off than the elves. They can play the arrogance card all that they want, but at the end of the day, the elves won't get a think without collaborating with humans.

 

To be fair to the character, we also have Celene burning down a plethora of elven men, women, and children to secure her standing with the nobles, who saw her as too soft on the elves (given the heretical play about her and Briala adding fuel to the fire), and Briala was willing to accept that decision. Briala was also deeply in love with Celene, a human, and willing to take risks that endangered her life to help her; she seemed to be in a tough situation where she saw an opportunity to help free her people from a system where they are subservient, and seized it. After all, until Briala realized the role Celene played in the tragedy of her past, she was willing to work for Celene towards the goal of ending the civil war and securing Celene's role as Empress.

 

As Briala says, “I will fight for the others who have no one to champion their cause.”

 

Given the elven historical account about the fall of the Dales and Halamshiral being burned down recently, there's reason for elves to be wary about collaboration with the shemlen. I suppose that will be a task left to the Inquisitor. I'm still curious how the narrative will handle a Dalish protagonist being found by a pseudo-Chantry organization (Cassandra and the fledgling Inquisition who helped her interrogate Varric in Dragon Age II), and hopefully there will be a variety of options and responses to provide.

 

They're best chance in DAI will likely be allying with the Inquisition, a predominately human organization with a potentially human (and likely not elven) leader.

 

I hope allying the Dalish clans with the Inquisition is a possibility with my Dalish Inquisitor, since it seems possible to do so with the mages or the templars.

[The Ascendant]

My goals as a Dalish Mage Inquisitor.
1) Uncover the secrets and mysteries of the Ancient Elves.
2) Uncover who or what is behind the tears in the Veil and close them if possible.
3) End the Mage-Templar war with the mages victorious.
4) End the Orlesian civil war with Celene the victor. Reconcile with Briala if possible.
5) Promote better human/elf relations. Only united can we overcome the Demons, Darkspawn and Qunari.
6) Conquer the Tevinter Imperium.
7) Reform the Chantry.
8) Establish new elven homeland. Preferable the Dales.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, we know the Dalish don't indulge in "dark heathen rituals" as you call them. That is simply chantry propaganda to keep the city elves from running away. As for the murder of innocents... Yes, I'm sure the Dalish do from time to time. You can do this at the beginning of the Dalish origin after all. As for forbidden magics? Considering that the Dalish don't really consider any magic "forbidden" I'd say they do, and yet they don't.

I'm fairly sure the Chantry could call the werewolf curse and life-extending blood magic ritual as a dark heathen ritual.

[Gwydden]

To be fair to the character, we also have Celene burning down a plethora of elven men, women, and children to secure her standing with the nobles, who saw her as too soft on the elves (given the heretical play about her and Briala adding fuel to the fire), and Briala was willing to accept that decision. Briala was also deeply in love with Celene, a human, and willing to take risks that endangered her life to help her; she seemed to be in a tough situation where she saw an opportunity to help free her people from a system where they are subservient, and seized it. After all, until Briala realized the role Celene played in the tragedy of her past, she was willing to work for Celene towards the goal of ending the civil war and securing Celene's role as Empress.

 

As Briala says, “I will fight for the others who have no one to champion their cause.”

I'm not really a fan of Celene. Of the main characters, she ended up the least sympathetic by the end of the novel. I can get Briala's point, but what worries me is that i) she was willing to prolong a bloody civil war and have hundreds if not thousands of human commoners suffer for the sake of the elves and ii) her fallout with Celene, the only human she actually liked, seems to be leading into her caring less and less for humans as a whole and seeing them more as an enemy the elves will have to contend with. I really don't think Fen'Harel is the best role model, whatever Felassan says.

[Xilizhra]

I'm fairly sure the Chantry could call the werewolf curse and life-extending blood magic ritual as a dark heathen ritual.

Ah, to be sure. Do, then, we call Orsino's Harvester ritual a dark monotheist ritual as performed by elves loyal to the Maker?

[Gwydden]

Ah, to be sure. Do, then, we call Orsino's Harvester ritual a dark monotheist ritual as performed by elves loyal to the Maker?

Why do you treat objective statements as opinions? 

 

The Chantry would probably call it that. He never said he would call it that, as far as I remember  

[LOLandStuff]

My theory that maybe the elven gods weren't really gods but powerful demons who came to an agreement with the ancient elves and decided to prolong their lifespan. Then humans showed up, learned magic and made contact with them through the fade.So, these gods shifted their attention towards humans, who were easily influenced and whatnot. That would explain all the "no longer immortal" and "gods stopped answering" parts.

 

Well, just a thought. It's late and a bit too lazy to get into details.

[Dean_the_Young]

Why do you treat objective statements as opinions? 

 

The Chantry would probably call it that. He never said he would call it that, as far as I remember  

 

They're all heathens to me, yub yub.

[Assassino01]

I'm fairly sure the Chantry could call the werewolf curse and life-extending blood magic ritual as a dark heathen ritual.

 

I'm fairly sure they would. But you can't judge an entire race on the actions of one individual, especially one stricken with grief and rage at the loss of his children.

 

Besides, the Chantry can't exactly claim the moral highground.

[Heimdall]

For the record, as if I hadn't said it before but I don't know if I said it in this thread, after finishing Masked Empire I'm half convinced that the antagonist of Inquisition is an ancient elf recently awoken from Uthenera. For that matter, Felassan and possibly Solas are probably ancient elves as well.

[Dayze]

It would be ironic if the dalish and city elves are the descendents of the elven underclass......it might even explain the mystical aspect of elves and humans always being humans, the upper class elves see the underclass elves choosing to live with humans.

 

They think; fine if you want to live among humans and abandon your own than so be it.  Than your children won't be elves anymore since thats what you aren't anymore.

 

Or they did it possibly to mess with alliances but it could also explain a sudden drop in elvish population if the the underclass, probably the majority of elves were mating with humans and finding their children not to be humans and why the elves managed to lose despite the advantage.

 

Almost a cutting off your nose to spite your face kind of thing.

 

As for Merill she was kind of naive and child-like, varric had to pay people to protect her after all...I mean if you asked her she probably would have told you that of course cities are dangerous; much like she realizes demons/spirits are dangerous.

 

Could the ancient elves have sealed away the old gods?  Well; they did know how to seal away dragons beneath the stone/underground back then.....an old god is basically just a bigger dragon....so its certainly not far from what we know they can already do.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm fairly sure they would. But you can't judge an entire race on the actions of one individual, especially one stricken with grief and rage at the loss of his children.

I never said you should.  It's just the same argument (and the same wise caution) can apply to Dalish views of Humans and Human views of Dalish.
 

 

Besides, the Chantry can't exactly claim the moral highground.

 

Sure it can.

 

It helps that the Chantry is distinct from the Andrastians who actual enact and carryout most policies, and commit most of the crimes. The Chantry can tell nations to take in Dales refugees, but it can't make the nations integrate and treat the city elves fairly.

[Assassino01]

 

Sure it can.

 

It helps that the Chantry is distinct from the Andrastians who actual enact and carryout most policies, and commit most of the crimes. The Chantry can tell nations to take in Dales refugees, but it can't make the nations integrate and treat the city elves fairly.

 

Considering that it was the Chantry which ordered the extermination of the Dales after the elves nearly won against Orlais, and considering that the Chantry is just an extension of the Orleasian court and Orleasian power I hardly think that point is valid. 

 

You also have to consider that it was the Chantry that made certain the elves were to be treated as second class citizens, and that they've never made any effort to help the elves. 

 

Added to their treatment of mages, templars and even most common humans... No, I wouldn't say the Chantry is a very moral organisation.

[Dean_the_Young]

Considering that it was the Chantry which ordered the extermination of the Dales after the elves nearly won against Orlais, and considering that the Chantry is just an extension of the Orleasian court and Orleasian power I hardly think that point is valid. 

 

Sure it is. We don't know who ordered the destruction of the Dales as a polity (and it really can't qualify as an extermination campaign), the Chantry isn't an extension of the Orlesian court, and the Chantry is a power separate but independent of Orlais.

 

 

You also have to consider that it was the Chantry that made certain the elves were to be treated as second class citizens, and that they've never made any effort to help the elves. 

 

 

The Chantry said take the elves in- that's hardly making certain the elves were to be treated as second class citizens. There's also nothing to suggest that the Chantry has never made any efforts to help the elves.
 

 

Added to their treatment of mages, templars and even most common humans... No, I wouldn't say the Chantry is a very moral organisation.

 

In a rather short post I've noticed what you would say about the Chantry says more about you than things it actual does and does not do, let alone the reasons it does them.

[Assassino01]

Sure it is. We don't know who ordered the destruction of the Dales as a polity (and it really can't qualify as an extermination campaign), the Chantry isn't an extension of the Orlesian court, and the Chantry is a power separate but independent of Orlais.

 

As it was the Chantry that came to lead the war against the Dales after they curbstomped Orlais I think it is fairly obvious to assume the Divine at the time ordered the Dales anexed.

 

And what else would you call an exalted march than a war of extermination? They very purpose of the Chantry's exalated marches are to enforce their will and exterminate heathens. 

 

The Chantry very much is an extension of Orlais. It was founded by the very same person whom brought Orlais to greatness if I remember my lore correctly. its headquarters are situated in the Orleasian capital and the officials of both courts mingle frequently. While the Chantry is technicaly "inderpendent" it's quite obvious that the secular power, and the clergy share many of the same goals and influence each other extensivly. 

 

There's a reason the second most powerful human nation in Thedas broke with the Orleasian chantry after all.

The Chantry said take the elves in- that's hardly making certain the elves were to be treated as second class citizens. There's also nothing to suggest that the Chantry has never made any efforts to help the elves.

 

 

The Divine at the time of the Exalted march on the Dales outlawed the Dalish religion and established the first Alienage. Passages in the Chant of Light have been removed if they looked favourably on the elves, and elves need a permit to marry. Holding them as slaves is while illegal more or less acceptable in Orlais.

 

In a rather short post I've noticed what you would say about the Chantry says more about you than things it actual does and does not do, let alone the reasons it does them.

 

 

Well, pray tell, what does the Chantry have speaking in favour of it, except some local level support of poor humans?