350 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

HOW?? The Asari alone were in the citadel for 1000+ years. That's not enough time for a god master race to orchestrate a FTL suicide run on the citadel or any other possible plan while the Catalyst lies there dormant and defenseless?

 

If Sovereign or this cycle's scout caught wind of the foolish idea (which is far more likely than not), he could indoctrinate his own counter-measure army and trace the globes back. The Reapers have been doing this thing for countless cycles.  You can bank on them having contingency plans. 

 

Also, the Citadel is made of Reaper tech.  Bear that in mind. 

[crimzontearz]

If Sovereign or this cycle's scout caught wind of the foolish idea (which is far more likely than not), he could indoctrinate his own counter-measure army and trace the globes back. The Reapers have been doing this thing for countless cycles. You can bank on them having contingency plans.

Also, the Citadel is made of Reaper tech. Bear that in mind.

how would they? So far the Leviathans have had agents in every cycle without being discovered.
their "indoctrination" works as well if not better than the reapers themselves and they were able to One Shot a sovereign class reaper. All it takes is a one time suicide run or an asteroid drop on the citadel adjacent mass relay....note they have MILLENNIA to do this and they have been around FAR longer than the reapers. Unless of course they know the catalyst is not a total tool and he is not actually dormant in the citadel without any control over it. Or unless they are impossibly incompetent themselves either way....someone is

[Dragoonlordz]

Good to hear Mac and Casey are part of the teams still, after reading some of this thread however I question the maturity of many who posted in here whining about his pressence in the video. No matter what you think of the ending of ME3, one bad story, one bad chapter or one bad character does not make someone a bad writer it just means they wrote one bad book, one bad chapter or one bad character and not that every book, chapter or character they ever will write is going to be bad. Some people here need to take a step back, gain some composure and re-evalute that amount of melodrama and hyperbole they are using.

 

Personally I am glad he is part of the project because it gives him a chance to prove that not only he can do better but as a team Bioware can do better, that one mistake a person makes does not define everything that person can do or does do in the future. Instead of being melodramatic, hyperbolic and ignorant how about we wait and see how the next game plays out, judge that game on it's own merits once it is released and not what you 'assume' it will be like years before it even see's the light of day and before you know almost anything about it.

[dreamgazer]

how would they? So far the Leviathans have had agents in every cycle without being discovered.

They also weren't planning a huge suicide rush on the Citadel. That's kind of a big, multilayered deal.

their "indoctrination" works as well if not better than the reapers themselves and they were able to One Shot a sovereign class reaper. All it takes is a one time suicide run or an asteroid drop on the citadel adjacent mass relay....note they have MILLENNIA to do this and they have been around FAR longer than the reapers. Unless of course they know the catalyst is not a total tool and he is not actually dormant in the citadel without any control over it. Or unless they are impossibly incompetent themselves either way....someone is

Right, because Mass Effect has proven that asteroid drops can't be stopped or anything.

You're neglecting the fact that Sovereign could just operate from a distance and navigate his indoctrinated forces to counter this suicide rush, or, more importantly, could signal for the keepers to prematurely open the relay for the entirety of the Reaper fleet. I have the feeling they'll be alright with being woken from their slumber to take on the small remnants of their elusive creators, and to preserve the ever-important Citadel.

The Leviathans likely understood that the Reapers would know they're coming and/or stop their advances, not that the Catalyst has active control over the Citadel's functions.

[crimzontearz]

They also weren't planning a huge suicide rush on the Citadel. That's kind of a big, multilayered deal.


Right, because Mass Effect has proven that asteroid drops can't be stopped or anything.

You're neglecting the fact that Sovereign could just operate from a distance and navigate his indoctrinated forces to counter this suicide rush, or, more importantly, could signal for the keepers to prematurely open the relay for the entirety of the Reaper fleet. I have the feeling they'll be alright with being woken from their slumber to take on the small remnants of their elusive creators, and to preserve the ever-important Citadel.

The Leviathans likely understood that the Reapers would know they're coming and/or stop their advances, not that the Catalyst has active control over the Citadel's functions.

oh no...they just took over a WHOLE SPACE STATION for decades without anyone finding out. COME ON. They are obviously capable of it.

Secondly it is proven their indoctrination can override the reapers's one. Move and counter move, gazer. They could do it especially way early in the following cycle but they do nit because there is no way in hell the Bratalyst leaves himself that exposed and vulnerable with ZERO control on the citadel.

[dreamgazer]

oh no...they just took over a WHOLE SPACE STATION for decades without anyone finding out. COME ON. They are obviously capable of it.

Not comparable situations whatsoever.  Do you realize how many moving pieces it would require to orchestrate a suicide rush on the Citadel?
 

Secondly it is proven their indoctrination can override the reapers's one.

Not over organics, it doesn't. Only the Reapers' mindless abominations (which can be Dominated by Shepard, a power existent since ME2), and a surprise stun attack (possibly not an insta-kill) on a Reaper itself.  

 

Show me where a Reaper-indoctrinated organic has been switched to a Leviathan-indoctrinated organic, and we'll talk.  
 

Move and counter move, gazer. They could do it especially way early in the following cycle but they do nit because there is no way in hell the Bratalyst leaves himself that exposed and vulnerable with ZERO control on the citadel.

You're narrowing the parameters further and further, to a point of implausibility.

Prove that Sovereign (or another Reaper scout) wouldn't open the Citadel relay for the entirety of their fleet to counteract this. Prove that they wouldn't thwart this action from the very beginning, considering the amount of chatter it'd require to get it off the ground.  

[crimzontearz]

Not comparable situations whatsoever. Do you realize how many moving pieces it would require to orchestrate a suicide rush on the Citadel?


Not over organics, it doesn't. Only the Reapers' mindless abominations (which can be Dominated by Shepard, a power existent since ME2), and a surprise stun attack (possibly not an insta-kill) on a Reaper itself.

Show me where a Reaper-indoctrinated organic has been switched to a Leviathan-indoctrinated organic, and we'll talk.


You're narrowing the parameters further and further, to a point of implausibility.

Prove that Sovereign (or another Reaper scout) wouldn't open the Citadel relay for the entirety of their fleet to counteract this. Prove that they wouldn't thwart this action from the very beginning, considering the amount of chatter it'd require to get it off the ground.

moving pieces required = 2. 1 scientist to remove the FTL blocks from a spaceship, 1 captain to ram a ship into a vital part of the citadel at maximum speed.

that is just one plan, I am sure the god master race can concoct even more straightforward and effective plans.

also, while I cannot prove that Levi's indoctrination overrides the reapers on sentient beings remember that 1 Shepard can dominate indoctrinated humans in ME2/3 and 2 you cannot prove it does not in spite of the fact that the codex entry suggest it does.

Sovereign does not know and never knew where the Leviathans are in spite of their agents which means that this attack could and most likely would be a total surprise not to mention chatter is NOT required as Leviathans can indoctrinate multiple people and activate them instantaneously to execute without anyone being any wiser.

[dreamgazer]

moving pieces required = 2. 1 scientist to remove the FTL blocks from a spaceship, 1 captain to ram a ship into a vital part of the citadel at maximum speed.

Dude, that's weaker than Star Wars logic. Did the Leviathans discover a droid with master plans to the Citadel?

"Even after thousands of years of occupation, the Citadel retains many secrets. The precise age of the station is not known, nor what resilient material it is constructed from. The location of the Citadel's core and its master control unit, regulating systems such as life support and navigation, remain hidden."

I thought you were referring to the asteroid idea, anyway.

that is just one plan, I am sure the god master race can concoct even more straightforward and effective plans.

Calling them "god master race" isn't getting you very far in this discussion. Lay some other plans on me, then.

also, while I cannot prove that Levi's indoctrination overrides the reapers on sentient beings remember that 1 Shepard can dominate indoctrinated humans in ME2/3 and 2 you cannot prove it does not in spite of the fact that the codex entry suggest it does.

Dominate is temporary. Very temporary. And the burden of proof is on you, sir.

Sovereign does not know and never knew where the Leviathans are in spite of their agents which means that this attack could and most likely would be a total surprise not to mention chatter is NOT required as Leviathans can indoctrinate multiple people and activate them instantaneously to execute without anyone being any wiser.

Yeah, I don't buy it in the slightest. That's too substantial of an attack to remain a secret, especially from the guardian of the Citadel, the relays, and the cycles. And there's absolutely nothing keeping Sovereign from whipping out an army of indoctrinated servants saved for a rainy day, similar to the Collectors, to counter this suicide rush. You're going to have to prove to me that the Leviathans could successfully sneak-attack the mysterious Citadel.

The point about opening the Citadel relay with the keepers and the Reapers ROFLstomping this attack also remains wide open.

[crimzontearz]

Dude, that's weaker than Star Wars logic. Did the Leviathans discover a droid with master plans to the Citadel?

"Even after thousands of years of occupation, the Citadel retains many secrets. The precise age of the station is not known, nor what resilient material it is constructed from. The location of the Citadel's core and its master control unit, regulating systems such as life support and navigation, remain hidden."

I thought you were referring to the asteroid idea, anyway.


Calling them "god master race" isn't getting you very far in this discussion. Lay some other plans on me, then.


Dominate is temporary. Very temporary. And the burden of proof is on you, sir.


Yeah, I don't buy it in the slightest. That's too substantial of an attack to remain a secret, especially from the guardian of the Citadel, the relays, and the cycles. And there's absolutely nothing keeping Sovereign from whipping out an army of indoctrinated servants saved for a rainy day, similar to the Collectors, to counter this suicide rush. You're going to have to prove to me that the Leviathans could successfully sneak-attack the mysterious Citadel.

The point about opening the Citadel relay with the keepers and the Reapers ROFLstomping this attack also remains wide open.

Right and the Leviathans are Eons old, you have no clue how much they know given that the bratalyst likely based the citadel on their own tech.

I used the Dominate as ab example because you used it to say it is not implausible. You do not know whether Enthrallment is superior to indoctrination but given Levi's can actively snatch reaper forces PERMANENTLY according to the codex it would seem so.

Other plans I might come up once I am out of Maggiano's...can't focus over the food.

Also I suggested the attack to be early enough in the cycle to avoid risks of detection when you are not dealing with ALL the races looking at it or even BEFORE it is actively discovered.

IF sovereign knew where the Leviathans are he would act, so, unless there is some other master plan at work it is safe to say that a surprise attack could very well be possible especially if the bratalyst is powerless as you say AND if the keeper are programmed as the codex says to welcome the first discoverers including the lovely thralls ready to covertly blow it up

[Oni Changas]

 

Good to hear Mac and Casey are part of the teams still, after reading some of this thread however I question the maturity of many who posted in here whining about his pressence in the video. No matter what you think of the ending of ME3, one bad story, one bad chapter or one bad character does not make someone a bad writer it just means they wrote one bad book, one bad chapter or one bad character and not that every book, chapter or character they ever will write is going to be bad. Some people here need to take a step back, gain some composure and re-evalute that amount of melodrama and hyperbole they are using.
 
Personally I am glad he is part of the project because it gives him a chance to prove that not only he can do better but as a team Bioware can do better, that one mistake a person makes does not define everything that person can do or does do in the future. Instead of being melodramatic, hyperbolic and ignorant how about we wait and see how the next game plays out, judge that game on it's own merits once it is released and not what you 'assume' it will be like years before it even see's the light of day and before you know almost anything about it.

I really dont mind Mac and would agree with you had I not seen the clusterfuckery of the comics.

[Gorguz]

Wait wait wait. There are people who think that the overused "we synthetics beings turn you organics into synthetic beings to be sure other synthetic beings do not kill you organics" ending it is better than the unique "we monuments of other species are turning you into us because you are going to develop a tech which is going to damage the universe in an irreversible way" ending? And that the first ending was suggested from the start because the "IA must not be a thing" citadel law?

No, no you must be all trolls. I need to think that.

 

If you play the trilogy from the start, you can see that DK had a plan. It was crearly stated that the reapers are defeatable only in the void while they are sleeping, and that something strange is consuming the universe. I even think that a large scale war against the reapers wasn't scripted, because the reapers were supposed to be so op to be invincible and to defeat them writers should have pulled out of a hat a magic and cheap device the existence of which is an insult to the intelligence of the players (like the crucible). Mac Walters is the only responsible for ME3 to be incoherent and cheap. DK had his ideas to end the trilogy, and they were good ideas. Mac Walters didn't know what to do, and leaded the team to pull out a gimmick with the war against the reapers and the Heart under siege.

 

And I want to write this again, since mods deleted my post: Mac Walters, unlike DK, isn't a professional writer. He was hired because he did a mod for a bioware game, that's it. There are people in these forums more qualified than him. Look around the internet, you won't find anything about Mac Walters. Because he isn't a writer. He is a fan.

[dreamgazer]

Wait wait wait. There are people who think that the overused "we synthetics beings turn you organics into synthetic beings to be sure other synthetic beings do not kill you organics" ending it is better than the unique "we monuments of other species are turning you into us because you are going to develop a tech which is going to damage the universe in an irreversible way" ending? And that the first ending was suggested from the start because the "IA must not be a thing" citadel law?
No, no you must be all trolls. I need to think that.

You can think they're trolls all you'd like. But, yes, the idea of synthetics rebelling against their creators has been a theme since the beginning of the Battlestar Galactica-inspired trilogy (nobody's saying it was intended from the start, since the writers have admitted that there was no concrete plan), and the "unique" idea of the mecha-Cthulhu villains turning into outright galaxy-saving good guys because of "techno-science magic" at the end is significantly worse and more problematic / contradictory with the rest of the lore.

[dreamgazer]

'The created will always rebel against the creators.'

Ask yourself - is that what the game is showing and telling you? Is it not the case that the Geth didn't rise up against their creators but were instead attacked and fought back in self-defence? Is it not true that, when Shepard finally convinces both sides to stop shooting and start talking, the Quarians and Geth immediately start making inroads towards rebuilding and resettling Rannoch together?

Since the beginning, yeah, in ways.

Organics are the chaos. Synthetics are the calculating reactors with building curiosity. There's more to the balance than the robots simply picking up their pitchforks. There's a conflict of ideology, which deepens with the discussion about synthetics' purpose of creation. And I don't consider the tentative truce between the geth and quarians, during wartime and after one Space Jesus yelled at them, as evidence to there not being an inevitable problem. EDI herself mentions that the geth's consensus could flip on a dime later on, since they're not static programs guided by organic morality.
 

As for EDI, her journey is one that can actually lead to her and Joker falling in love with each other. Hardly a ringing endorsement of the Catalysts logic now is it?

Not really a persuasive one, either. Though, in a way, EDI does ultimately rebel against her creators (Cerberus).

[CptFalconPunch]

Ask yourself

This is the core problem.

I agree though, the catalyst doesn't make sense in the mass effect universe.

[CptFalconPunch]

Organics are the chaos. Synthetics are the calculating reactors with building curiosity. There's more to the balance than the robots simply picking up their pitchforks.

Russels teapot.
 

There's a conflict of ideology, which deepens with the discussion about synthetics' purpose of creation. And I don't consider the tentative truce between the geth and quarians, during wartime and after one Space Jesus yelled at them, as evidence to there not being an inevitable problem.

Again speculation. Some time, some where things might go wrong. This is an instint reaction rather than a logical one. They're different that us!
Conflicting ideology is what makes humans fight each other, betray, kill and much worse.
 

EDI herself mentions that the geth's consensus could flip on a dime later on, since they're not static programs guided by organic morality.

You mean like humans change sides all the time?

 

Not really a persuasive one, either. Though, in a way, EDI does ultimately rebel against her creators (Cerberus).

Don't be simple. She rebelled because of other reasons. She didn't power up one day and say: "Must rebel creators".


Robots in mass effect are life. And life shouldn't be squandered based on wild speculation. Unless they're different

[dreamgazer]

Right and the Leviathans are Eons old, you have no clue how much they know given that the bratalyst likely based the citadel on their own tech.

Another leap in logic. All the Catalyst would have to do is tweak the tech's infrastructure for any number of reasons (efficiency or flat-out deception to avoid such a problem), the way people who work with technology and engineering frequently do, and your FTL rush is SOL.

I used the Dominate as ab example because you used it to say it is not implausible. You do not know whether Enthrallment is superior to indoctrination but given Levi's can actively snatch reaper forces PERMANENTLY according to the codex it would seem so.

No, I used it as an explanation to what you're seeing going on with the Brute at the end of the DLC, which isn't evidence of superior indoctrination.

Also, can you point me towards the bolded information in the codex? Unless you're referring to the Awakened Collectors, which is a dish of debatable bullshit all its own that exists only in the space of MP.

Also I suggested the attack to be early enough in the cycle to avoid risks of detection when you are not dealing with ALL the races looking at it or even BEFORE it is actively discovered.

You're making a big assumption about the Reaper scout just leaving the observation distance of the Citadel after the extermination. Logic would assert that they'd actively monitor the Citadel's exterior, at least, prior to the conclusion of the cycle, given how they're might be stragglers with a death wish and whether an advanced civilization has arrived on the Citadel. The interior and the Protheans' arrival through the Conduit is a little trickier to explain, though ME1 opens its own plot holes about the Reapers not being thorough enough to purge the keepers of their altered signal when scrubbing the Citadel.

IF sovereign knew where the Leviathans are he would act, so, unless there is some other master plan at work it is safe to say that a surprise attack could very well be possible especially if the bratalyst is powerless as you say AND if the keeper are programmed as the codex says to welcome the first discoverers including the lovely thralls ready to covertly blow it up

Sovereign doesn't even have to know about the Leviathans specifically to have a red-flag raised at a plan that pretty much has to exist outside of the Leviathans' home planet.

Sure, so the evidence provided to the player by the game isn’t persuasive if said player rejects the evidence provided to him\her by the game? Marvellous contribution.

If it's not proper, strong evidence and there's more compelling evidence throughout the rest of the narrative, yes.

And thank you for the compliment about my contribution.

[dreamgazer]

Russels teapot.

Care to elaborate, or should I link to Tali's info-dump about the geth from ME1?
 

Again speculation. Some time, some where things might go wrong. This is an instint reaction rather than a logical one. They're different that us! Conflicting ideology is what makes humans fight each other, betray, kill and much worse.

Yeah, but there's not much in the way of preventative measures that can be done about organic-organic chaos (outside of brainwashing), though it's not a stretch to think that the advancement of ultimate self-destructive technology in general correlates with the development of synthetic technology. Two birds with one stone, in a way. The Reapers can still be seen as antagonists, though, and you absolutely don't have to agree with or appreciate their warped perspective. It beats a non-debatable motive.

Anyway, the lack of ultimate extermination in the MEU due to organic conflicts is proof that those things work themselves out. The geth were two small steps away from eliminating the entire quarian race because of the conflict, one slightly different mechanical number-crunch away.
 

You mean like humans change sides all the time?

They don't do it because of an immediate and non-emotional flip in processes. Which, after all, can be manipulated based on brute-force programming.
 

Don't be simple. She rebelled because of other reasons. She didn't power up one day and say: "Must rebel creators".

Neither did the geth.

[dreamgazer]

And you don't find it compelling because saying things like 'tentative truce' and 'Space Jesus' somehow invalidates the blatant contradictions offered up by that particular story arc?

It is a tentative truce, though, under extenuating circumstances, and it wouldn't have happened without Shepard's magical powers of persuasion. That one burst of yelling at the two sides wouldn't stick forever, let alone for very long. Unless Space Jesus hand-waved their eternal cooperation.

[CptFalconPunch]

Care to elaborate, or should I link to Tali's info-dump about the geth from ME1?

Russels teapot is basically science slang for "the burden of proof falls to you"
You're in a schience fiction story, one that revolves around the cooperation and the indifference between organics and machines. Not their eternal conflict.

Yeah, but there's not much in the way of preventative measures that can be done about organic-organic chaos (outside of brainwashing), though it's not a stretch to think that the advancement of ultimate self-destructive technology in general correlates with the development of synthetic technology. Two birds with one stone, in a way. The Reapers can still be seen as antagonists, though, and you absolutely don't have to agree with or appreciate their warped perspective. It beats a non-debatable motive.

There is, and one of them is called leadership. Just how many wars were fought by men who really didn't want to? I could go on here but you know what I mean. You only look on machines "as something that can be stopped" due to the instincts you have within you clouding your judgement of something that has never happened solely on the fact that we're different.

I think we both know that there is a difference between ME1 reapers to ME2 and ME3 reapers. The reapers were god-like creatures based on lovecraft's image of a God. In the best case indifferent and ignorant of lesser beings and in the worst harmful.

Anyway, the lack of ultimate extermination in the MEU due to organic conflicts is proof that those things work themselves out. The geth were two small steps away from eliminating the entire quarian race because of the conflict, one slightly different mechanical number-crunch away.

The Geth never wanted to harm the quarians. They only acted in self defence. There is literally no evidence that the geth wanted quarians dead. They wanted them gone. The burden of proof once again falls on you and you have absolutely no evidenc eon it.

They don't do it because of an immediate and non-emotional flip in processes. Which, after all, can be manipulated based on brute-force programming.

Right, because organics can't be persuaded to change sides with brute force, brain washing, torture, or logic.
The Geth resemble organics more and more as the games progress. They will at some point, if they haven't already, reached a point where science hasn't gotten to.

Neither did the geth.

Yeah, just like humans... You believe in a different GOD? DIE!

[dreamgazer]

It may be a tentative truce. It may not be. Either way the game tells the player that peace between organics and synthetics through reason and understanding is possible. That's all I'm saying dreamgazer. Same goes for EDI and Joker. Right? Both arcs explicitly contradict and undermine Macs hastily - horribly - cobbled together ending and there's just no talking around it I'm afraid.

There's plenty of talking about it, and many elements that counteract this undermining you're referring to.

EDI's personality is a debatable element. The geth's programming unpredictability is a debatable element. Shepard's few stray lines of yelling during wartime as the foundation of their truce is an incredibly debatable element. The heretic geth are a debatable element. The lore actively makes their conflict an integral and debatable element, and the ending has always allotted for resistance to the idea, even more so with the EC. But there are repercussions to pulling that trigger (like there are repercussions for choosing whether the council lived or died in ME1), as there should be for removing the entities responsible for, at the very least, tens of millions of years of existence and the basis for organic life's technology.

[dreamgazer]

Russels teapot is basically science slang for "the burden of proof falls to you"
You're in a schience fiction story, one that revolves around the cooperation and the indifference between organics and machines. Not their eternal conflict.

I'm very well aware of Russel's teapot, and again I direct you to Tali's info-dump about the geth in ME1.

There is, and one of them is called leadership. Just how many wars were fought by men who really didn't want to? I could go on here but you know what I mean. You only look on machines "as something that can be stopped" due to the instincts you have within you clouding your judgement of something that has never happened solely on the fact that we're different.

You're going to have to lead me through your thought-process here. Are you suggesting the Reapers should influence leadership?

I think we both know that there is a difference between ME1 reapers to ME2 and ME3 reapers. The reapers were god-like creatures based on lovecraft's image of a God. In the best case indifferent and ignorant of lesser beings and in the worst harmful.

"Impose order on the chaos of organic life" isn't something new in ME2 and ME3. There's always been something beyond Lovecraftian mystique.

The Geth never wanted to harm the quarians. They only acted in self defence. There is literally no evidence that the geth wanted quarians dead. They wanted them gone. The burden of proof once again falls on you and you have absolutely no evidenc eon it.

Are you aware of how many quarians were killed during the Morning War and on Rannoch?

Right, because organics can't be persuaded to change sides with brute force, brain washing, torture, or logic.
The Geth resemble organics more and more as the games progress. They will at some point, if they haven't already, reached a point where science hasn't gotten to.

Not so easily they can't, no. Whether geth get to true organic processes or not is wildly debatable, but ME2 Legion suggests not ascribing benign anthropomorphism to them.

Yeah, just like humans... You believe in a different GOD? DIE!

Yes, there are organic conflicts over organic ideologies, and there always will be.

[dreamgazer]

That you cant bring yourself to even acknowledge such a straightforward contradiction is all kinds of telling dreamgazer. Once more, the game shows and tells the player that peace between organics and synthetics through reason and understanding is possible. That's all. Is any of this getting through?

Probably as much as my counter-argument is "getting through" to you. I understand your rationale perfectly fine; I simply don't agree with it.

The issue was made to be debatable and conflicting through the examples I listed and how it relates to the positive and negative perceptions across the entire trilogy, not the black and white resolution to the idea in the way you're suggesting. One tentative truce during wartime after Shepard's yelling is not a ironclad contradiction. Truces are broken all the time, organics overreact, and synthetics can (will) change their consensus opinion at the cold and clinical flip of a switch.

Is the truce a ray of hope? Sure, but that's a ray of hope for the future post-Destroy, if they decide to recreate synthetic lives with that kind of programming in mind.

[CptFalconPunch]

I'm very well aware of Russel's teapot, and again I direct you to Tali's info-dump about the geth in ME1.

Wait, didn't Tali admit they were just defending themselves when the quarians attacked? And once they drove off the planet the geth didn't chase them?
You even have the option to call them out on that. So, points go the Geth.

You're going to have to lead me through your thought-process here. Are you suggesting the Reapers should influence leadership?

No, you just commented on how hard core programming can alter a geth. I commented on how humans can be altered using other methods.
They are very common actually.

"Impose order on the chaos of organic life" isn't something new in ME2 and ME3. There's always been something beyond Lovecraftian mystique.

For all we know we might just be potatoes on their back yard. So amazingly dumb to them we appear like plants. This is well withing lovecraft's mistyque.

Are you aware of how many quarians were killed during the Morning War and on Rannoch?

Many, but the geth acted in self defence. They just wanted to live. They didn't want to exterminate their creators. The quarians just got scared geth went self aware.
So points go to the geth again.

Not so easily they can't, no. Whether geth get to true organic processes or not is wildly debatable, but ME2 Legion suggests not ascribing benign anthropomorphism to them.

Actually the whole point of organics is variation. Someone can change his mind in an instant. Someone else may never change, ever.
Yeah it is debatable, however it doesn't disprove any theories.