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[dreamgazer]

Wait, didn't Tali admit they were just defending themselves when the quarians attacked? And once they drove off the planet the geth didn't chase them?
You even have the option to call them out on that. So, points go the Geth.

I thought you wanted evidence pointing towards synthetic's emerging curiosity and the quarians' chaotic nature being the cause of it. A response to this:

Organics are the chaos. Synthetics are the calculating reactors with building curiosity. There's more to the balance than the robots simply picking up their pitchforks.

Which I provided. Like I said, there's more to the balance between organics and synthetics than picking up pitchforks.

No, you just commented on how hard core programming can alter a geth. I commented on how humans can be altered using other methods.
They are very common actually.

Not really. The conflict on Legion's loyalty mission in ME2 is a testament to their difference.

For all we know we might just be potatoes on their back yard. So amazingly dumb to them we appear like plants. This is well withing lovecraft's mistyque.

Except we utilize their technology in intelligence and adaptive ways, and they're concerned enough with advancement to choke it off at systematic intervals. That's a bit more complicated than working through overgrowth in a backyard.

Many, but the geth acted in self defence. They just wanted to live. They didn't want to exterminate their creators. The quarians just got scared geth went self aware.
So points go to the geth again.

Billions, roughly 1% left alive from what's referred to as a "genocide" in Revelation.

Actually the whole point of organics is variation. Someone can change his mind in an instant. Someone else may never change, ever.

The difference, of course, comes in the gap between organic upbringing and neurological response, and responses to hard-bound creator programming that isn't hinged on organic morality.

[CptFalconPunch]

Not really. The conflict on Legion's loyalty mission in ME2 is a testament to their difference.

Yeah, but due to reaper intervention, humans just took advantage of it.

Except we utilize their technology in intelligence and adaptive ways, and they're concerned enough with advancement to choke it off at systematic intervals. That's a bit more complicated than working through overgrowth in a backyard.

It was an analogy not a comparison.

Billions, roughly 1% left alive from what's referred to as a "genocide" in Revelation.

I haven't read/seen "revelations" but again, humans have attemped genocide before. But still you can hold the quarians responsible since they started it and still millions were left to go. The Geth also feared that given the chance, quarians would attempt to kill the Geth again.

The difference, of course, comes in the gap between organic upbringing and neurological response, and responses to hard-bound creator programming that isn't hinged on organic morality.

Unless you're able to modify your core programming based on moral grounds?

[dreamgazer]

Right, so you understand the game to be showing and telling the player that long term peace between synthetics and organics - achieved through reason and understanding - is out of the question? That the only means of managing conflict between the two is to embrace the Catalysts genocidal logic and monstrous solutions?

Under these parameters, it's incredibly debatable, yes. And I wouldn't call pulling the trigger on the Reapers as embracing the Catalyst's genocidal logic. But there are repercussions to that decision (and to folding one's arms and saying "No"), as there should be. BioWare made this a personal and provocative decision, so it's natural to lean towards options with your philosophy, but there are limitations. Just as there always have been in most of ME's "big" decisions.
 

What a vile, wicked message.

Eh. It's a cautionary tale against the development of synthetic life (and hyper-advanced tech) in general, which is rapidly approaching in our technological culture. Far more intriguing than "the Reapers were really the galaxy's saviors the entire time", anyway.
 

And all this to make a case for the quality of ME3's writing?

More of a case of how the ending could've been even worse at reflecting on the rest of the game's lore and themes, and how it's more intriguing than dismantling the story with a refusal military victory or the original writer's intent on making the Reapers indisputable good guys. I'll take this any day, despite being flawed in itself.

[crimzontearz]

Another leap in logic. All the Catalyst would have to do is tweak the tech's infrastructure for any number of reasons (efficiency or flat-out deception to avoid such a problem), the way people who work with technology and engineering frequently do, and your FTL rush is SOL

give an Enthralled plant 50 years for some study under Leviathan's watch and that is not a problem anymore, after all the bratalyst is powerless in the citadel right? And the reapers are not infallible seen as they missed two (one and one individual) prothean colonies in their activities in the previous cycle so such plans if done correctly could go on undetected.

No, I used it as an explanation to what you're seeing going on with the Brute at the end of the DLC, which isn't evidence of superior indoctrination.

Also, can you point me towards the bolded information in the codex? Unless you're referring to the Awakened Collectors, which is a dish of debatable bullshit all its own that exists only in the space of MP.

well there is the MP side with the awakened collectors but no, I am talking about the War Assets description of the enthrallment spec ops teams which specifically says the long term goal is to create an army of reaper creatures dedicated to exterminate their own kind. That not evidence enough, does it need to spell it out for you? "For dreamgazer, yes we are implying those creatures cam be controlled permanently". It DOES say the alliance fears the reapers could develop a countermeasure but that is nit hear nor there since we are not talking about building an army here but using covert plants and snatching one maybe two indoctrinated individuals who would still pretend to be indoctrinated.

You're making a big assumption about the Reaper scout just leaving the observation distance of the Citadel after the extermination. Logic would assert that they'd actively monitor the Citadel's exterior, at least, prior to the conclusion of the cycle, given how they're might be stragglers with a death wish and whether an advanced civilization has arrived on the Citadel. The interior and the Protheans' arrival through the Conduit is a little trickier to explain, though ME1 opens its own plot holes about the Reapers not being thorough enough to purge the keepers of their altered signal when scrubbing the Citadel.

the altered signal was done AFTER the reapers were gone when vigil woke the protheans up. ME1 implies that the reapers, as I said, were not infallible in noticing and purging hidden colonies/cryo arks which then lead to the protheans getting into the citadel to modify the Keeper signal. Now that DOES play in your favor because that means that the Bratalyst did not do anything to stop the sabotage (he MIGHT have allowed it to happen) but that also means he failed to notify Sovereign who could have easily corrected it soon after. So either the Bratalyst is NOT really connected to the reapers OR He let it happen. But it does mean that such a tactic (strike in between cycles) is feasible and has succeeded before. Notice that the protheans did not KNOW the citadel was the very intelligence of the enemies because if they did they could have just blown up the conduit. The conduit is a mass relay. If a full size mass relay can annihilate a whole solar system a small scale one can very likely blow up the citadel.

Sovereign doesn't even have to know about the Leviathans specifically to have a red-flag raised at a plan that pretty much has to exist outside of the Leviathans' home planet

sovereign failed to catch the Protheans sabotaging the keepers post cycle, he failed ALSO to scrub the Mars archives. They are NOT infallible and all knowing.

[dreamgazer]

give an Enthralled plant 50 years for some study under Leviathan's watch and that is not a problem anymore, after all the bratalyst is powerless in the citadel right? And the reapers are not infallible seen as they missed two (one and one individual) prothean colonies in their activities in the previous cycle so such plans if done correctly could go on undetected.

Stopped at the bolded. If so little is still known about the Citadel after all this time, I don't buy this timeline at all.
 

well there is the MP side with the awakened collectors but no, I am talking about the War Assets description of the enthrallment spec ops teams which specifically says the long term goal is to create an army of reaper creatures dedicated to exterminate their own kind. That not evidence enough, does it need to spell it out for you? "For dreamgazer, yes we are implying those creatures cam be controlled permanently". It DOES say the alliance fears the reapers could develop a countermeasure but that is nit hear nor there since we are not talking about building an army here but using covert plants and snatching one maybe two indoctrinated individuals who would still pretend to be indoctrinated.

If you're going to be using it in your suicide rush situation, yes, a definitive piece of lore on that would be necessary.
 

the altered signal was done AFTER the reapers were gone when vigil woke the protheans up. ME1 implies that the reapers, as I said, were not infallible in noticing and purging hidden colonies/cryo arks which then lead to the protheans getting into the citadel to modify the Keeper signal. Now that DOES play in your favor because that means that the Bratalyst did not do anything to stop the sabotage (he MIGHT have allowed it to happen) but that also means he failed to notify Sovereign who could have easily corrected it soon after. So either the Bratalyst is NOT really connected to the reapers OR He let it happen. But it does mean that such a tactic (strike in between cycles) is feasible and has succeeded before. Notice that the protheans did not KNOW the citadel was the very intelligence of the enemies because if they did they could have just blown up the conduit. The conduit is a mass relay. If a full size mass relay can annihilate a whole solar system a small scale one can very likely blow up the citadel.

Bolded is key, especially in relation to the Levianthans' inaction. And while you've faintly convinced me that the Leviathans could conceptualize the idea, you haven't swayed me into believing that they could get any supposed operation off the ground, hidden, and stealth-arrived at the Citadel without triggering suspicion.
 

sovereign failed to catch the Protheans sabotaging the keepers post cycle, he failed ALSO to scrub the Mars archives. They are NOT infallible and all knowing.

Indeed, the presence of the relay monument is a silly hole in ME1. Mars archives? Eh, it was well-buried data. Didn't care for the way the plans was introduced in ME3, really, but the idea of the Crucible has persisted in cycle after cycle, seemingly disregarded by the Reapers for one reason or another (probably looked at as a tax on the galaxy's resources, since it couldn't get off the ground without the relays flipped on). Mighty big difference between that and amassing a suicide rush against the Citadel.

[crimzontearz]

Stopped at the bolded. If so little is still known about the Citadel after all this time, I don't buy this timeline at all.
 

If you're going to be using it in your suicide rush situation, yes, a definitive piece of lore on that would be necessary.
 

Bolded is key, especially in relation to the Levianthans' inaction. And while you've faintly convinced me that the Leviathans could conceptualize the idea, you haven't swayed me into believing that they could get any supposed operation off the ground, hidden, and stealth-arrived at the Citadel without triggering suspicion.
 

Indeed, the presence of the relay monument is a silly hole in ME1. Mars archives? Eh, it was well-buried data. Didn't care for the way the plans was introduced in ME3, really, but the idea of the Crucible has persisted in cycle after cycle, seemingly disregarded by the Reapers for one reason or another (probably looked at as a tax on the galaxy's resources, since it couldn't get off the ground without the relays flipped on). Mighty big difference between that and amassing a suicide rush against the Citadel.

Right but my point is that they are indeed FALLIBLE and they did fail three times already AND they did fail to notice a huge data cache on Thessia left by a prothean containing vital info not to mention they fail to take care of Liara's time capsule in the refuse ending.

 

That said the war assets codex does say that the artifacts's long term use is to make an army of reaper killing reaper units....which means the control is permanent or else ....well they could never make an army could they? only sporadic units.

 

Finally...to the original point,,,,,Either you are right and the bratalyst is powerless in the citadel....and the Leviathans are idiots. Or I am right and he has full control but he is a total moron iven some of the facts we know.

 

but what is more important is....Mac inherited ME1 and well, some of ME2 given that Drew did not write all of it and if I remember right left mid production....and he took that and added a CRAPLOAD of plot holes written against the lore/situations that were already established...why? Unknown. But it DOES show that he is no professional writer as all he had to do was go with the path that he inherited....but nooooooooooooooooooooooooo 

[dreamgazer]

Right but my point is that they are indeed FALLIBLE and they did fail three times already AND they did fail to notice a huge data cache on Thessia left by a prothean containing vital info not to mention they fail to take care of Liara's time capsule in the refuse ending.

Fallible? Sure. So fallible that they'll let the Leviathans suicide rush the Citadel? Nah.
 

That said the war assets codex does say that the artifacts's long term use is to make an army of reaper killing reaper units....which means the control is permanent or else ....well they could never make an army could they? only sporadic units.

Which is precisely what Dominate does. Sporadic.
 

Finally...to the original point,,,,,Either you are right and the bratalyst is powerless in the citadel....and the Leviathans are idiots. Or I am right and he has full control but he is a total moron iven some of the facts we know.

Or, the answer behind Door #3 (which isn't too far off from Door #1): the Leviathans know they can't succeed in destroying the Citadel because the Reapers would foil their plans (not directly because of the Catalyst's control of the Citadel), so they act entirely in character by staying under(water)cover while cycle upon cycle plays out.
 

but what is more important is....Mac inherited ME1 and well, some of ME2 given that Drew did not write all of it and if I remember right left mid production....and he took that and added a CRAPLOAD of plot holes written against the lore/situations that were already established...why? Unknown. But it DOES show that he is no professional writer as all he had to do was go with the path that he inherited....but nooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Eh, if perceived lore inconsistencies, holes, and retcons make an unprofessional writer (or writers), then that's not saying too many nice things about those responsible for ME2. Talk about dropping the ball with what was inherited.

[crimzontearz]

Fallible? Sure. So fallible that they'll let the Leviathans suicide rush the Citadel? Nah.
 

Which is precisely what Dominate does. Sporadic.
 

Or, the answer behind Door #3 (which isn't too far off from Door #1): the Leviathans know they can't succeed in destroying the Citadel because the Reapers would foil their plans (not directly because of the Catalyst's control of the Citadel), so they act entirely in character by staying under(water)cover while cycle upon cycle plays out.
 

Eh, if perceived lore inconsistencies, holes, and retcons make an unprofessional writer (or writers), then that's not saying too many nice things about those responsible for ME2. Talk about dropping the ball with what was inherited.

why not? that's a LOT of crap they missed not to mention the Calendon's Rift weapon leaving behind a reaper orpse, I mean...come on the evidence is piling up. a COVERT suicide run 9/11 style (which happened in universe once if I remember correctly) or an in between cycle strike are completely pluaisble especially if the catalyst is not active in the citadel. Of course they could be acting on the assumption that he IS in control of it and thus refuse to act out of fear. But if that is the case, really, that would not prevent the suicide rush plan completely.

 

Sporadic = not an army. the entry specifically says "to create an army of reaper creatures for the purpose of killing their own kind". that implies permanent condition

 

could be as I said in point #1 BUT, then again as I said if it was a covert strike I doubt it

 

 

I am not saying ME2 was perfect I honestly hated many things about it

[Iakus]

give an Enthralled plant 50 years for some study under Leviathan's watch and that is not a problem anymore, after all the bratalyst is powerless in the citadel right? And the reapers are not infallible seen as they missed two (one and one individual) prothean colonies in their activities in the previous cycle so such plans if done correctly could go on undetected.

 

 

Heck smuggle a few indoctrination orbs and deposit them in the right places, like the C-Sec offices, and you wouldn't even need to zerg rush the Citadel.  You can take it over from within.

[CronoDragoon]

Eh, if perceived lore inconsistencies, holes, and retcons make an unprofessional writer (or writers), then that's not saying too many nice things about those responsible for ME2. Talk about dropping the ball with what was inherited.

 

Since people tend to get defensive when other ME games are pointed out, I'd like to expand that to "those responsible for most stories" in general. No one crafts a story thinking "I really hope this holds up under logical scrunity from a band of hardcore fans with nothing better to do than play Monday-morning-N7 agent for 2 years". They make stories to build a fantastic world, to make memorable characters, thought-provoking philosophical themes. If we're going to point out ME3's failings, I personally think the most useful place to start is why ME3 fails for people on these terms, such that they actually started going back and caring about this other stuff whereas they don't for other stories (yep, including ME1 and ME2).

[dreamgazer]

Heck smuggle a few indoctrination orbs and deposit them in the right places, like the C-Sec offices, and you wouldn't even need to zerg rush the Citadel.  You can take it over from within.

Sounds like a job for the keepers, assuming the orbs could actually make it onto the Citadel in volume and to those strategic points.

[Oni Changas]

Technically the Council started the Morning War with their laws against (unshackled) AI. Quarians panicked and did the only thing they could; shut the geth down. Still, not like 1% of Quarians was against this, but geth just decided to kill off nearly all quarians. Yet in ME3 rather than admitting they knew what they did was wrong in organic morals, they're painted as innocent.

[CronoDragoon]

I'm sure geth did most of the killing, but other quarians accounted for some of that 99%.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Technically the Council started the Morning War with their laws against (unshackled) AI. Quarians panicked and did the only thing they could; shut the geth down. Still, not like 1% of Quarians was against this, but geth just decided to kill off nearly all quarians. Yet in ME3 rather than admitting they knew what they did was wrong in organic morals, they're painted as innocent.

 

This is done primarily in a rather ham-fisted attempt to bolster support for the Geth. Regardless, the Geth opted to continue the assault because they were unable to reach a consensus that diplomacy with the Quarians was possible or that any form of truce could be had. This fact is only proven when the Quarian idiotically invade the moment they have the means to do so. In essence, a near genocide of their even species wasn't enough to deter them from war with the Geth.

[Cainhurst Crow]

There;s a lot of bashing going on in this thread for a thread thats not suppose to be about bashing.

[crimzontearz]

Sounds like a job for the keepers, assuming the orbs could actually make it onto the Citadel in volume and to those strategic points.

...and they are immune to enthrallment becaaaaause......?

[Farangbaa]

The Reapers are not aware of the Catalyst.

The Catalyst does not directly control the Reapers.

The Catalyst  can't do anything on the Citadel. Or rather, he won't do anything.

 

This is to keep up the illusion to the Reapers that:

"My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness. You cannot grasp the nature of our existence."

Leaving a scout behind to monitor the state of the galaxy also plays into this. The Reapers have to carry out the cycles all by themself so they can continue to believe:  

"We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure"

The Catalyst is merely the initiator and the observer of the Cycles. (Why do the Reapers do what it wants? They are perfect in their design. Figure out the rest for yourself. Think about the control ending)
 

[crimzontearz]

The Reapers are not aware of the Catalyst.
The Catalyst does not directly control the Reapers.
The Catalyst can't do anything on the Citadel. Or rather, he won't do anything.

This is to keep up the illusion to the Reapers that:
"My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness. You cannot grasp the nature of our existence."
Leaving a scout behind to monitor the state of the galaxy also plays into this. The Reapers have to carry out the cycles all by themself so they can continue to believe:
"We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure"
The Catalyst is merely the initiator and the observer of the Cycles. (Why do the Reapers do what it wants? They are perfect in their design. Figure out the rest for yourself. Think about the control ending)

there is a number of issues with that including the fact that in ME1 the bratalyst had not been thought of yet. A lot of the stuff from ME2/3 does like the fact the reapers did not need the citadel to be activated to arrive and it took them only a few months from ME2 to the beginning of ME3 to get to earth with little problem

still, if its safety was at risk do you not think the star brat would really not do anything and be destroyed to preserve the illusion?

[Farangbaa]

still, if its safety was at risk do you not think the star brat would really not do anything and be destroyed to preserve the illusion?

 

Yes.

[crimzontearz]

Yes.

which, given his beliefs, means he would be actively letting everyone in the galaxy die.

[Farangbaa]

which, given his beliefs, means he would be actively letting everyone in the galaxy die.

 

Why? The Reapers aren't aware of it. They'd just continue the Cycles.

[CptFalconPunch]

The Reapers are not aware of the Catalyst.

The Catalyst does not directly control the Reapers.

The Catalyst  can't do anything on the Citadel. Or rather, he won't do anything.

 

This is to keep up the illusion to the Reapers that:

"My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness. You cannot grasp the nature of our existence."

Leaving a scout behind to monitor the state of the galaxy also plays into this. The Reapers have to carry out the cycles all by themself so they can continue to believe:  

"We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure"

The Catalyst is merely the initiator and the observer of the Cycles. (Why do the Reapers do what it wants? They are perfect in their design. Figure out the rest for yourself. Think about the control ending)
 

 

This makes sense actually. So the reapers are just dumb dumb dumb machines with mind control abilities. Made to believe they are superior in every way.

Makes sense but I still don't like it. It feels like it cheapens the experience throughout all the games. Oh well.

[crimzontearz]

Why? The Reapers aren't aware of it. They'd just continue the Cycles.

Because the Starbrat is their collective intelligence and controls them (according to the control ending). If he goes no one knows what would happen but it seems likely they would just power off or stop functioning. Then there is the problem of them being synthetics without control who could just decide to whipe out all organic life because...you know...that is what synthetics are bound to do according to the bratalyst no?

[Farangbaa]

Because the Starbrat is their collective intelligence and controls them (according to the control ending). If he goes no one knows what would happen but it seems likely they would just power off or stop functioning. Then there is the problem of them being synthetics without control who could just decide to whipe out all organic life because...you know...that is what synthetics are bound to do according to the bratalyst no?

 

I believe the Reapers are implanted with (some version/interpretation) of the Catalyst's mandate and it's solution upon creation, so they do what it wants without ever realizing it exists, or questioning why they do what they do. Call it perfect indoctrination, so you will. This is still a form of control, but not an active one.

 

Like a watch will still point out the time without the watchmaker being there to guide it through it's functioning. It does what it's designed to do.

 

 In the Control ending this implant is replaced by Shepard's.

 

p.s. that 'collective intelligence' line means, to me, the following: the Catalyst knows all the Reapers know. The Reapers do not necessarily know what the Catalyst knows (or know the same things from Reaper to Reaper)

[Farangbaa]

This makes sense actually. So the reapers are just dumb dumb dumb machines with mind control abilities. Made to believe they are superior in every way.

Makes sense but I still don't like it. It feels like it cheapens the experience throughout all the games. Oh well.

 

They're dumb in the same way the Leviathan are dumb. In everything else they are far superior to everyone else, just like the Leviathan.