350 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

I believe the Reapers are implanted with (some version/interpretation) of the Catalyst's mandate and it's solution upon creation, so they do what it wants without ever realizing it exists, or questioning why they do what they do. Call it perfect indoctrination, so you will. This is still a form of control, but not an active one.

Like a watch will still point out the time without the watchmaker being there to guide it through it's functioning. It does what it's designed to do.

In the Control ending this implant is replaced by Shepard's.

p.s. that 'collective intelligence' line means, to me, the following: the Catalyst knows all the Reapers know. The Reapers do not necessarily know what the Catalyst knows (or know the same things from Reaper to Reaper)

doubtful, Shepard implies he is actively controlling them and so does the catalyst

"so the reapers will obey me?" "they will be yours to do as you wish"

[crimzontearz]

And yes the reapers seem not to know what the bratalyst knows but that stems from the ME1 vs ME2/3 contradictions

[Farangbaa]

doubtful, Shepard implies he is actively controlling them and so does the catalyst

"so the reapers will obey me?" "they will be yours to do as you wish"

 

Which could very well be done by creating an imprint of Shepard's state-of-mind and beliefs into the Reapers. No need for active control. Shepalyst seems very certain in all his statements in the epilogue of control, as if his beliefs are set in stone.

 

Perhaps the Catalyst/Shepard could even change the imprint at will, erasing the previous one to change behaviour as needed. (but I don't think this is necessary. Both Shepalyst and the Catalyst seem very certain of what they are doing)

 

 

 

I should go back all posts and change 'implant' to 'imprint', but I'm too lazy.

[crimzontearz]

But if that is true then he is pretty much actively controlling them, the difference is negligible besides for the fact that they STILL could go rampant if the bratalyst stopped working because apparently all AIs do.

Which means if the bratalyst allowed himself to be blown up with the citadel he would be risking to eradicate all life in the galaxy....ALL OF IT which goes against his mandate

[Farangbaa]

But if that is true then he is pretty much actively controlling them, the difference is negligible besides for the fact that they STILL could go rampant if the bratalyst stopped working because apparently all AIs do.

Which means if the bratalyst allowed himself to be blown up with the citadel he would be risking to eradicate all life in the galaxy....ALL OF IT which goes against his mandate

 

No? The imprint would still be there, they'd still adhere to it.

[crimzontearz]

No? The imprint would still be there, they'd still adhere to it.

I am sure the geth were programmed NOT to kill Quarians....yet they did. Which is the very reason why the reapers exist no?

[Farangbaa]

I am sure the geth were programmed NOT to kill Quarians....yet they did. Which is the very reason why the reapers exist no?

 

Difference between shackled and unshackled AIs. Shackled AI's can't change their programming.

 

Hell, even the Catalyst is shackled. I doubt the Catalyst, being shackled himself, would create unshackled Reapers.

[crimzontearz]

Difference between shackled and unshackled AIs. Shackled AI's can't change their programming.

Hell, even the Catalyst is shackled. I doubt the Catalyst, being shackled himself, would create unshackled Reapers.

if he was shackled he would have stopped harvesting the leviathans if ordered to

he did not. Same goes for the reapers.

[Farangbaa]

if he was shackled he would have stopped harvesting the leviathans if ordered to

he did not. Same goes for the reapers.

 

Even harvesting the Leviathan is within the Catalyst's programming/mandate. The Leviathan should've given it a bit more of a constrained mandate than 'preserve all life'. Cause the Catalyst is doing exactly that: preserving all life, but in Reaper form. 

 

Even the Leviathan themselves tell you the Catalyst is still performing the task they gave to it.

 

Basically, this is what's happening: 

http://wiki.lesswron...rclip_maximizer    (thanks to.. whoever posted this earlier)

 

Being shackled has nothing to do with doing what you're told. Being shackled means the AI can't change it's programming.

[dreamgazer]

...and they are immune to enthrallment becaaaaause......?

... because they respond only to the Citadel. If they were susceptible to enthrallment/indoctrination and not reliant on Sovereign's signal to the Citadel itself (proof that the Reapers have a link to it without direct control), then we wouldn't have a trilogy.

[crimzontearz]

Are you kidding me? You're serious.. aren't you?

Even harvesting the Leviathan is within the Catalyst's programming/mandate. The Leviathan should've given it a bit more of a constrained mandate than 'preserve all life'. Cause the Catalyst is doing exactly that: preserving all life, but in Reaper form.

Basically, this is what's happening:
http://wiki.lesswron...rclip_maximizer (thanks to.. whoever posted this earlier)

yeah...no. I am fairly sure the Leviathan did program the AI not to turn on them otherwise that would be entirely too idiotic for comfort given that they created it solely to solve the problem of other AIs turning on their creators

[crimzontearz]

... because they respond only to the Citadel. If they were susceptible to enthrallment/indoctrination and not reliant on Sovereign's signal to the Citadel itself (proof that the Reapers have a link to it without direct control), then we wouldn't have a trilogy.

The Signal is the specific order to activate the citadel relay nothing else. I see no proof that they are immune only that the signal is now not working anymore so they go on with their original programming. It is also speculated that the keeper might have been chosen as they were easy to indoctrinate at one point.

[Farangbaa]

yeah...no. I am fairly sure the Leviathan did program the AI not to turn on them otherwise that would be entirely too idiotic for comfort given that they created it solely to solve the problem of other AIs turning on their creators

 

Like I said earlier: the Reapers are stupid in the same way the Leviathan are stupid. 

 

The Leviathan gave their AI only one mandate: preserve all life. <-- this is his entire programming, pretty much. This is the part that's shackled. If it weren't shackled it would probably have said: '&*(@^#*&@^# you guys, I'm going home. There's no solution to this problem'. But it has to find a solution.

 

-First, that's a pretty big mandate for a shackled AI.

-Second, the Leviathan did not (want to) understand that they themselves were part of the problem the Catalyst was trying to solve. It's entirely within the mandate of the Catalyst to harvest it's creators. In it's view it is not killing them, it's is preserving them in Reaper form. The Leviathan saw themselves outside of the scope of their thralls' problems, the Catalyst disagreed and saw them as a vital part of it, so he harvested them first and they became a part of his solution. 

Third, the Leviathan admit without any hesitation that the Catalyst is still doing what it was created to do. It has not broken it's mandate. They don't agree with his solution, but they do agree that it's a solution.

 

again:

http://wiki.lesswron...rclip_maximizer

[dreamgazer]

The Signal is the specific order to activate the citadel relay nothing else. I see no proof that they are immune only that the signal is now not working anymore so they go on with their original programming. It is also speculated that the keeper might have been chosen as they were easy to indoctrinate at one point.

Not sure where you're going with the bolded, since it doesn't affect what I stated. It's proof that the Reapers have a direct link with the Citadel without direct control, and that the keepers respond only to the Citadel itself. If they could still be enthralled (as speculated), then there'd be no need for the signal and the Protheans' hack into their system wouldn't have meant anything.

[crimzontearz]

Like I said earlier: the Reapers are stupid in the same way the Leviathan are stupid.

The Leviathan gave their AI only one mandate: preserve all life. <-- this is his entire programming, pretty much. This is the part that's shackled. If it weren't shackled it would probably have said: '&*(@^#*&@^# you guys, I'm going home. There's no solution to this problem'. But it has to find a solution.

First, that's a pretty big mandate for a shackled AI.
Second, the Leviathan did not (want to) understand that they themselves were part of the problem the Catalyst was trying to solve. Therefore it's entirely within the mandate of the Catalyst to harvest it's creators. In it's view it is not killing them, it's is preserving them in Reaper form. The Leviathan saw themselves outside of the scope of their Thrall's problems, the Catalyst disagree and saw them as a vital part of it.
Third, the Leviathan admit without any hesitation that the Catalyst is still doing what it was created to do. It has not broken it's mandate. They don't agree with his solution, but they do agree that it's a solution.

it remains....who is to say that without the bratalyst the reapers would not think it best to just exterminate life and stop the cycle altogether in a twisted interpretation of the mandate?

[crimzontearz]

Not sure where you're going with the bolded, since it doesn't affect what I stated. It's proof that the Reapers have a direct link with the Citadel without direct control, and that the keepers respond only to the Citadel itself. If they could still be enthralled (as speculated), then there'd be no need for the signal and the Protheans' hack into their system wouldn't have meant anything.

yes there would be because a reaper would likely have to come fairly close to the citadel to exert new orders (if the range was limitless....well there would be other issues) ...the order is "once the signal starts do x"

which kinda makes me wonder why Saren was killing off Keepers.


still, even IF that was the case the keepers would have to know what and were to look which would be impossible for them if the orbs were just in crates....remember, covert op

[Oni Changas]

This is done primarily in a rather ham-fisted attempt to bolster support for the Geth. Regardless, the Geth opted to continue the assault because they were unable to reach a consensus that diplomacy with the Quarians was possible or that any form of truce could be had. This fact is only proven when the Quarian idiotically invade the moment they have the means to do so. In essence, a near genocide of their even species wasn't enough to deter them from war with the Geth.

Yeah, but with the Quarians attacking I can totally side with. I'd be pissed too if some guy I brought up took my home from me and never allowed me back peacefully (this up until Legion is met with). And considering they were breaking their collective feet out of the geth's proverbial asses, they'd have succeeded had the reapers not been around. When you take Legion out of the equation I couldn't care less if the geth are wiped out. I'm of the belief that one can't replace an organic race once lost (the same can nearly be said when you take the geth's individual personalities into consideration, but their bodies can be replicated with the same voices).

[dreamgazer]

yes there would be because a reaper would likely have to come fairly close to the citadel to exert new orders (if the range was limitless....well there would be other issues) ...the order is "once the signal starts do x"

Sorry, you're not convincing me here.

still, even IF that was the case the keepers would have to know what and were to look which would be impossible for them if the orbs were just in crates....remember, covert op

If something's directly throwing off the synergy of the Citadel in one form or another, it's made clear that the keepers are going to locate it and quickly rectify the situation to further normal habitation. Energy orbs emitting enthrallment signals over the organics residing there, whether they're "covered" or not and given their response only to the Citadel's functions, wouldn't be too difficult for them to pinpoint and resolve. If they had shields like the one in Bryson's office, it'd be another thing altogether. But: 1) that'd be a huge crate; and 2) the effectiveness of the spheres would be nixed whenever it was shut off.

[Farangbaa]

and you that of an amoeba. If the shackles (which you say were in place for the bratalyst) were so infallible (and present at all) we would not have a trilogy at all unless the Leviathan god race thought it smart to leave the door open to philosophically justify killing all of them and turning them into goo

 

They did exactly that, everything in the Leviathan DLC points to it. Most prominently them telling you that it's still doing what it's programmed to do:

 

There was no mistake, it still serves it purpose.

 

You can not like this all you want, it's in the game.

[crimzontearz]

Sorry, you're not convincing me here.



If something's directly throwing off the synergy of the Citadel in one form or another, it's made clear that the keepers are going to locate it and quickly rectify the situation to further normal habitation. Energy orbs emitting enthrallment signals over the organics residing there, whether they're "covered" or not and given their response only to the Citadel's functions, wouldn't be too difficult for them to pinpoint and resolve. If they had shields like the one in Bryson's office, it'd be another thing altogether. But: 1) that'd be a huge crate; and 2) the effectiveness of the spheres would be nixed whenever it was shut off.

uh...the orbs are not THAT and it would not be throwing off the synergy of the cytadel until execution.

Remember Durrrrrberus managed to do JUST that.

[crimzontearz]

They did exactly that, everything in the Leviathan DLC points to it. Most prominently them telling you that it's still doing what it's programmed to do:

There was no mistake, it still serves it purpose.

You can not like this all you want, it's in the game.

That says that the Leviathan believes it is acting according to what the bratalyst BELIEVES to be the mandate not that, like I said, said mandate was wrongly interpreted and the shackles just did not work as intended (if they were ever on) which leads us to then have to wonder if, assuming what you are hypothesizing is true, the reaper would not eventually themselves follow the same route.

[Oni Changas]

Ah give it a rest already. The plot sniffs booty. Leviathan makes it even worse by trying to justify a turd. Leave it at that.

[dreamgazer]

Ah give it a rest already. The plot sniffs booty. Leviathan makes it even worse by trying to justify a turd. Leave it at that.

You're right: the central plot of Mass Effect does, by and large, sniff booty as a whole.  

 

There are holes from the beginning, just like there are holes all over the place in other beloved space operas.

[Iakus]

Ah give it a rest already. The plot sniffs booty. Leviathan makes it even worse by trying to justify a turd. Leave it at that.

The fear is that Bioware will somehow continue to try and justify it.

 

Or worse, keep trying to build upon it.

 

Until it is truly gone, the stench will hang there over the franchise.

[crimzontearz]

The fear is that Bioware will somehow continue to try and justify it.

Or worse, keep trying to build upon it.

Until it is truly gone, the stench will hang there over the franchise.

remember....we did not like the ending because we did not understand it....right?