350 réponses à ce sujet

[ShaggyWolf]

This is the core problem I have with the persistent ME3 haters on here. They explain why ME3 sucks by examples with which the entire series is riddled. (someone give me a better word for riddled, it's wrong in this context... I think. English is not my native language )

 

Well, I don't speak for everyone, but the reason ME3 still doesn't sit well with me are largely issues limited to ME3.

 

1- Forced sacrifice ending. And the fact that a 3 second breath scene is not substantial enough for me to condone the 1 ending that doesn't force a sacrifice.

 

2- The unnecessary and poorly executed deaths of 2 squadmates.

 

3- The autodialogue forcing Shepard's decisions, motivations, and morals into a pattern which contradicts decisions and personality traits I had established in the last two games. I personally never had this problem in ME2. I understand that some do (I saw you mention the Sole Survivor working for Cerberus thing, and I think that's a totally fair criticism to make. There should've at least been more dialogue to explore with that origin)

 

4- Cerberus devolving from an interesting grey-area faction into a narrow-sighted villian group. Sure, Cerberus had been twisted before from a villian faction into an ally in ME2, but I'm able to accept that because in ME1, you never really talk to anyone *inside* Cerberus. You get a lot of outside perspective and other people's interpretations. I never felt like ME2 broke Cerberus lore very much because ME1 frankly didn't establish anything substantial in that regard. Admittedly, this is a personal issue. Put simply though, I liked Cerberus in ME2 and I feel that they could've been a lot better and should've been more intelligent in ME3. Especially because a few of the things TIM says and does contradict things he says and does in the very first scene of ME2, before Shepard is even dead and the Collectors even reveal themselves.

 

5- Renegade choices are the ones you pick if you don't want to win at the War Assets mechanic. Renegade is supposed to be a pragmatic mentality that sacrifices morals in favor of getting an edge. Renegade in ME3 is pretty much about sacrificing the edge to be a jerk.

 

6- Sidelining ME2 companions and LI's. I learned how Ash/Kaidan/Liara-mancers felt in ME2.

 

7- The Reaper's motivations were dumb. I'm not saying the writers were dumb, I'm saying the Reapers are. Their motivations were something we never really got to explore until ME3. I expected more, I expected something more terrifying, demonizing, and relevant. I was disappointed with the path they ultimately chose for them.

 

The key here is that it has nothing to do with the writing. I'll certainly admit that previous Mass Effect installments had their narrative flaws, but it was the decisions to do the things that I listed above at all that ruined the game for me. I couldn't care less about literary quality, in this instance.

 

On topic: I think Mac and Casey belonged in that video. As others have said, they are important contributers to the franchise, and even though they might have been a part of several things I disliked about ME3, they were also a huge part of the massive number of things I liked about the entire trilogy. I can't just sweep that under the rug and focus on the negative, at least not anymore. I'm very excited to see the next Mass Effect title, though I do hope it stays away from the mistakes that I feel were made with ME3.

 

Edit: Oh yeah, Tali's face reveal was bad and disappointing

Modifié par ShaggyWolf, 10 juin 2014 - 06:58 .

[JamesFaith]

You'll get no argument from anyone here that the previous games had their problems dreamgazer. Or that ME3 had it's strengths. Thing is, to what degree should we let people like you tell us that the ending to ME3 wasn't as bad as we think?

 

To same degree we let people tell other that ending of ME3 was as bad as they think?

 

Or one of these group have some special privilege? 

[AlanC9]

Thought I'd better clear this up before we got too many pages away:
 

No idea what Drew has to do with Tali's voice acting. The Reapers did not have a plan that made no sense, their plans and agenda were simply not revealed, other than the fact that they wanted to destroy/enslave all intelligent, spacefaring life in the galaxy, which made them very mysterious. Sounds to me like you just simply have a problem with this type of space opera fiction.

When I spoke of "Tali's silly voice recording" I was referring to her recording of Saren and Benezia's conversation. My bad; I've spent so much time talking to people who realize how silly this plot device is that I wrongly assumed my meaning would be obvious. We can get into the reasons why it's silly, if you like.

And the problem with the Reapers isn't that they want to destroy/enslave all intelligent life. The problem is that their plan for doing so is not rational. Which would have been tolerable if Bio had ever intended them to simply be insane, but Bio never had any intention of doing that. (You can make a serious case that Mac should have recognized that stupid, crazy, and incoherent was the only viable option remaining for the Reapers, but throwing out the original vision for the series -- that there would somehow be some reveal that explained things -- would have been a very tough sell, institutionally.)

 

Personally, I think the flaw came in when Drew K. stole Frederik Pohl's plot without stealing all of it. We can get into that too, but it'll have to be spoilerrific for the Heechee books.

Protip: you really shouldn't play the "you just don't like space opera" card on me. I've been reading that stuff since before you were born.... unless you're over 40, which I deem unlikely.

[AlanC9]

You'll get no argument from anyone here that the previous games had their problems dreamgazer.

Are you quite sure about that? 

[Iakus]

I don't really agree. I though the entire game was a lot worse than ME1 + ME2. I would have forgiven that, but then came the terrible ending.

 

Oh, I don't think everyone would be singing the trilogy's praises.  There'd certainly be grumbling over this or that.

 

But the pure rage, the massive backlash, that never would have appeared if the endings had even been merely acceptable.

[KaiserShep]

1- Forced sacrifice ending. And the fact that a 3 second breath scene is not substantial enough for me to condone the 1 ending that doesn't force a sacrifice.

 

I'll grant this one, because while I accept that the breath scene is intended to show Shepard's survival, it's just not satisfying imagery in and of itself, and I believe it would not have taken much at all to improve upon this scene without totally rewriting it.

 

 

2- The unnecessary and poorly executed deaths of 2 squadmates.

 

I assume you mean Legion and Thane. If so, then I can't really argue with that, especially Legion. In Thane's defense, however, his death was pretty much dialed in since the beginning. I never expected him to live to see the end of the trilogy regardless. I just think the fight with Kai Leng should have been designed a bit better so that it was more visceral and chaotic so that Thane didn't do a suicide charge with a pistol.

 

 

5- Renegade choices are the ones you pick if you don't want to win at the War Assets mechanic. Renegade is supposed to be a pragmatic mentality that sacrifices morals in favor of getting an edge. Renegade in ME3 is pretty much about sacrificing the edge to be a jerk.

 

I'm not sure where people get this idea that renegade = pragmatism, because that just isn't true. Take Feros, for example. If you go strictly renegade during this mission, you lose the entire colony, because the renegade path is simply to wipe out the colonists rather than use the anti-thorian gas grenades, and you kill Shiala, who would have been helping them. I can't remember everything off the top of my head, but the renegade choices that I do remember that can result in higher numbers on the War Assets pool are conditional, since Wrex must be dead (and Maelon's cure data may have to be destroyed but I don't remember for sure), and then sabotage the genophage so that you get all of clan Urdnot as well as Mordin as an asset. Other than that, renegade seldom results in greater rewards in the games.

 

 

6- Sidelining ME2 companions and LI's. I learned how Ash/Kaidan/Liara-mancers felt in ME2.

 

Too many and too disposable was basically their issue. Problem with ME2's companions was that most of them were irrelevant to the overarching plot of the trilogy, and if you got all but two of them killed, a significant role for them in ME3 would be a void, unless they all got got the equivalent of Padok Wiks. Tali and Garrus benefit greatly by being fan favorites that have existed since the beginning. As for Ash/Kaidan-mancers, I understand their frustration, but as a Liara-mancer, I got quite a lot out of ME2 with LotSB installed.

[Farangbaa]

Well, I don't speak for everyone, but the reason ME3 still doesn't sit well with me are largely issues limited to ME3.

 

1- Forced sacrifice ending. And the fact that a 3 second breath scene is not substantial enough for me to condone the 1 ending that doesn't force a sacrifice.

 

2- The unnecessary and poorly executed deaths of 2 squadmates.

 

3- The autodialogue forcing Shepard's decisions, motivations, and morals into a pattern which contradicts decisions and personality traits I had established in the last two games. I personally never had this problem in ME2. I understand that some do (I saw you mention the Sole Survivor working for Cerberus thing, and I think that's a totally fair criticism to make. There should've at least been more dialogue to explore with that origin)

 

4- Cerberus devolving from an interesting grey-area faction into a narrow-sighted villian group. Sure, Cerberus had been twisted before from a villian faction into an ally in ME2, but I'm able to accept that because in ME1, you never really talk to anyone *inside* Cerberus. You get a lot of outside perspective and other people's interpretations. I never felt like ME2 broke Cerberus lore very much because ME1 frankly didn't establish anything substantial in that regard. Admittedly, this is a personal issue. Put simply though, I liked Cerberus in ME2 and I feel that they could've been a lot better and should've been more intelligent in ME3. Especially because a few of the things TIM says and does contradict things he says and does in the very first scene of ME2, before Shepard is even dead and the Collectors even reveal themselves.

 

5- Renegade choices are the ones you pick if you don't want to win at the War Assets mechanic. Renegade is supposed to be a pragmatic mentality that sacrifices morals in favor of getting an edge. Renegade in ME3 is pretty much about sacrificing the edge to be a jerk.

 

6- Sidelining ME2 companions and LI's. I learned how Ash/Kaidan/Liara-mancers felt in ME2.

 

7- The Reaper's motivations were dumb. I'm not saying the writers were dumb, I'm saying the Reapers are. Their motivations were something we never really got to explore until ME3. I expected more, I expected something more terrifying, demonizing, and relevant. I was disappointed with the path they ultimately chose for them.

 

The key here is that it has nothing to do with the writing. I'll certainly admit that previous Mass Effect installments had their narrative flaws, but it was the decisions to do the things that I listed above at all that ruined the game for me. I couldn't care less about literary quality, in this instance.

 

On topic: I think Mac and Casey belonged in that video. As others have said, they are important contributers to the franchise, and even though they might have been a part of several things I disliked about ME3, they were also a huge part of the massive number of things I liked about the entire trilogy. I can't just sweep that under the rug and focus on the negative, at least not anymore. I'm very excited to see the next Mass Effect title, though I do hope it stays away from the mistakes that I feel were made with ME3.

 

Edit: Oh yeah, Tali's face reveal was bad and disappointing

 

These are all fine points, except 5 which just isn't true. Some I don't really agree with, but they are a matter of taste (#1 for instance. No problem at all with forced sacrifice). But you're not the kind of person I was refering to, exemplified by the bolded, underlined sentence.

 

A lot of people use bad writing as their reason for hating ME3. All that bad writing applies to ME1 and ME2 aswell.

[AlanC9]

As for Ash/Kaidan-mancers, I understand their frustration, but as a Liara-mancer, I got quite a lot out of ME2 with LotSB installed.

Though the ME3 coup is a bit more interesting with an A/K romance. Especially if you've managed to get Kirrahe and Thane killed. Of course, that's OT since we're talking about an ME2 problem anyway, but at least Bio managed to put the imposed distance between Shepard and the VS to some use.

[dreamgazer]

Though the ME3 coup is a bit more interesting with an A/K romance. Especially if you've managed to get Kirrahe and Thane killed.

 

Yeah, there are a lot of different ways that the Cerberus coup can be made interesting through variation.  

 

Had they executed the Leng battle better and emphasized Cerberus as "indoctrinated servants" a bit more to highlight their motivation, it'd be great.

[dreamgazer]

These are all fine points, except 5 which just isn't true. Some I don't really agree with, but they are a matter of taste (#1 for instance. No problem at all with forced sacrifice).

 

ME1 had two forced sacrifices, and the option to commit genocide in lieu of unleashing a dangerous alien race on the galaxy.

[SolNebula]

Yeah, there are a lot of different ways that the Cerberus coup can be made interesting through variation.  

 

Had they executed the Leng battle better and emphasized Cerberus as "indoctrinated servants" a bit more to highlight their motivation, it'd be great.

 

Don't forget also a missed car chase sequence ala Shadow Broker that we never got.

[AlanC9]

I'm debating whether to get Kirrahe and Thane killed in my current ME run. This Shep's a colonist/sole survivor, so having Virmire turn into a bloodbath is kind of appropriate. I'll have to see if I can control my completionist tendencies enough to have a chance of actually having to shoot Ash.

[dreamgazer]

Don't forget also a missed car chase sequence ala Shadow Broker that we never got.

 

Ohhhh, no no no.  Had enough of that in Shadow Broker, thankyaverymuch.

[Seishoujyo]

Yes, I get it. It is Drew Karpyshyn's fault that Mass Effect 1 and 2 had crappy writing, which in turn forced Mac Walters to write a ridiculous ending for ME3, which that fans of course hated. It is completely irrelevant that the fans had no problem with the writing until ME3.

I get it, seriously. It's all Drew's fault, even though he had nothing to do with Mass Effect 3, which simply makes Mac Walters a victim of circumstances. Mac Walters is the best writer ever and will now prove it after he miserably failed in Mass Effect 3.

 

No Mac is a good writer period, like it or not it is how it is.

 

He did one mistake with Casey and it was the ending of ME3 (they thought at the moment it was a good idea, so what ? You are all perfect here ? Never do a mistake in your life ?). ME2 was awesome and he wrote Cerberus (and TIM I think), best thing ever in the entire trilogy. Even ME3 is awesome.

 

Leave the guy alone, he will do an excellent job on ME Next, now he knows we don't like space magic and he won't do it again.

[Raizo]

Right but he didn't have complete control until ME3.

Exactly. I don't mind Mac Walters being apart of the Next Mass Effects creative/writing team since he is a very good character writer and I feel like he could contribute a lot to the Next Mass Effect game but. Hope to god that someone else is in charge of the Next Mass Effect's overall story. When it came to ME3 it felt like Michael Bay had taken over as lead writer and creative lead of the project.

[Sanunes]

Exactly. I don't mind Mac Walters being apart of the Next Mass Effects creative/writing team since he is a very good character writer and I feel like he could contribute a lot to the Next Mass Effect game but. Hope to god that someone else is in charge of the Next Mass Effect's overall story. When it came to ME3 it felt like Michael Bay had taken over as lead writer and creative lead of the project.

 

I really don't even think he had that much control over Mass Effect 3, he was just the person that management went to first. David Gaider talked about what his position is like at BioWare and if I remember the blog post correctly he really doesn't have that much influence on the story and I can see the same thing for Mac Walters.

[SimonTheFrog]

I really don't even think he had that much control over Mass Effect 3, he was just the person that management went to first. David Gaider talked about what his position is like at BioWare and if I remember the blog post correctly he really doesn't have that much influence on the story and I can see the same thing for Mac Walters.

 

That is a hopeful thought.

 

What i felt during ME2 and ME3 was that the rule of cool was chosen much more often rather than continuity or suspension of disbelief. This made me lose interest in the franchise more and more to the point where it got so absurd that i had to stop playing (and buying DLC's). Which was very annoying because ME started out so brilliant and unlike anything else that i have experienced before in that genre (That mixture of personal character arcs, heart string tugging and space exploration on pseudo-scientific basis (which i mean in a good way).

So, yeah, that was highly disappointing. And somehow, by reading quotes, the comics and watching interviews, I got the overall impression, that this direction was very closely correlated to Mac Walters growing influence. Plus his smugness in the light of so many heart-broken fans was a bit difficult to process. So, anyway... 

 

I'm hoping that my assumptions are wrong. And if they are not that people at Bioware let him write a character or two but not the main arc and not the scientific glossary and documents

[chris2365]

I really don't even think he had that much control over Mass Effect 3, he was just the person that management went to first. David Gaider talked about what his position is like at BioWare and if I remember the blog post correctly he really doesn't have that much influence on the story and I can see the same thing for Mac Walters.

 

This is even more true now that he's been upgraded to ''Narrative Director''. His job will be composed more of overseeing and saying ''looks great'' or ''I'm not sure this fits with the Mass Effect theme''. Besides, for all the complaints he gets, you need someone like him, who's written the original trilogy, in order to guide these new writers (who have never written in the ME universe) and show them. We need to keep this a Mass Effect game, and that's his job. For those worrying, he might not even be involved that much, and if he is, it'll probably be in a regular writing role (not lead). This is a guy who's written characters like Garrus in ME2. Do we really want to disregard that?

[felipejiraya]

If I'm not mistaken Mac is working more on the new IP and just a overseer (like Casey) on the new ME.

[Sanunes]

That is a hopeful thought.

 

What i felt during ME2 and ME3 was that the rule of cool was chosen much more often rather than continuity or suspension of disbelief. This made me lose interest in the franchise more and more to the point where it got so absurd that i had to stop playing (and buying DLC's). Which was very annoying because ME started out so brilliant and unlike anything else that i have experienced before in that genre (That mixture of personal character arcs, heart string tugging and space exploration on pseudo-scientific basis (which i mean in a good way).

So, yeah, that was highly disappointing. And somehow, by reading quotes, the comics and watching interviews, I got the overall impression, that this direction was very closely correlated to Mac Walters growing influence. Plus his smugness in the light of so many heart-broken fans was a bit difficult to process. So, anyway... 

 

I'm hoping that my assumptions are wrong. And if they are not that people at Bioware let him write a character or two but not the main arc and not the scientific glossary and documents

 

Since you seemed interested in what I was saying here are a few links from David Gaider's blog regarding being a lead writer, I do recommend his blog for I find a lot of his posts insightful for why they make some decisions they do and I would think this would apply pretty close to what is happening with the Mass Effect team.

 

On Being "Lead Writer"

On Who's in Charge

Game Writing (Part 1 of 5)

[Blad3Zer0]

We're almost in the middle of 2014 and people still overreact about Mac Walters.

Mainly because we can.

[Oni Changas]

Could've fooled me

 

Like him or hate him, hes been apart of all 3 games so he belongs there. One misstep doesn't demonize a person for life. Also, not everyone hated these "criticizied" parts. So, expect to see more of him around whether you like it or not

Add the comics and you've got like 20 missteps.

 

 

 

 

 

..What? I'm being generous.

[chris2365]

If I'm not mistaken Mac is working more on the new IP and just a overseer (like Casey) on the new ME.

 

Which is perfect for everyone in my opinion. Those who don't want Casey or Mac will be happy to know they won't be involved in day to day affairs or writing much content for the game. For others, it's great to have 2 of the main visionaries of the Mass Effect universe stay on and make sure they guide the new team in the right direction: to make a good Mass Effect game.

[durasteel]

This is more for others in the thread less accustomed to the usual arguments, but

 

"Dark Energy was something that only organics could access because of various techno-science magic reasons we hadn't decided on yet."

"Maybe the Reapers kept wiping out organic life because organics keep evolving to the state where they would use biotics and dark energy and that caused an entropic effect that would hasten the end of the universe. Being immortal beings, that's something they wouldn't want to see."  - Drew K

 

Ladies and gentlemen, the guy who would have written ME3 so much better than Mac Walters!

 

Yeah.

 

 

Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, but it is really complete bull crap to compare the two-sentence recollection of a an idea of a storyline to a finished, shipped product. Yes, in the form in which it was articulated it sounds pretty silly, but it is asinine to assume that Drew wouldn't have worked on it a hell of a lot beyond that form if he were writing the actual plot for the third game.

 

Drew Karpyshyn is a competent professional who has produced some really quality work for BioWare over the years. Deriding him as if he were not is a worse reflection on you than it is on him.

 

BioWare has a lot of talented writers, and while I could be completely wrong, my understanding from what I've seen and read is that Drew was a lot better at working collaboratively than Mac was, which is what lead to Mac's ending not getting any sort of peer review or feedback which it obviously and desperately needed. If I'm correct, then I suspect there has been a pretty thorough examination of processes and controls at BioWare, and clearly there has been some reorganisation of the team--I suspect that a primary goal was to make sure that no one person was in a position to torpedo a project going forward.

[frylock23]

For the most part I enjoy playing ME3 ... right up until I ascend to parlay with Godchild at the end and the whole experience comes right off the rails. All I can do is think that this is a completely unknown and unreliable source trying to tell me how to fix the massive Reaper problem in the galaxy. I also wonder why this thing didn't show up the first time around or just unlock the gate to let the Reapers in the first time around if it's been in the Citadel the whole. I also wonder why, if what it says is always true, the Reapers haven't rebelled against it. It did, after all, create them to be its solution. If the created always rebel against their creators ... shouldn't Harby and the gang have turned on it a long time ago?

 

Ah well, my problems with the Mass Effect trilogy began with ME2 where I was killed in the opening minutes of the game so they could try to force an entirely new crew down my throat. It felt like they were saying, "Here! These are way cooler squad mates and more of them. You'll love them better. Really. LOVE THEM!" As a result, the entire main story was lost in daddy issues and mental trauma, and I actually haven't been back to play a new Shepard since slogging through with four of my main Sheps. I just plain dread ME2 that much.

 

I have serious reservations about a new game. I'd like to think maybe I'll get to play my Four HorseSheps of the Apocalypse again because they all live through ME3, but ... those two? Really? They broke my heart with what they did to the game. Maybe they should watch Lord of the Rings and see how a true master dealt with a mysterious and overwhelming threat without actually having to force any of main characters to sacrifice themselves in a stupid manner even though all were more than willing to die if they had to.