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[shepskisaac]

I just found this lovely image on ME reddit 



Lol. Yeahh sooo, I think the most reasonable thing for Bioware to do is focus on new regions of the Milky Way rather than shoehorn in an entirely different galaxy that belittles all of the history and reputation we learned about our galaxy over the course of the trilogy. 

As long as we don't see any place or ANYONE from the old worlds. 'Cause they could be all affected by Synthesis (that is assuming Synthesis didn't affect the entire galaxy). So the end result is just like moving to Andromeda - none of the old characters and locations would be present.

[Kabooooom]

Yes that's what I meant by "another Citadel". Another major metropolis. The capital of the galaxy and all its life forms. With the ark theory you're not going to have the people and resources to have another "Citadel" with the races we know. It'd be the Citadel for a whole other slew of races. This is probably where personal taste comes in, because all I know is that I'd want my ME4 game to still have the council races make up the majority. Not the minority, not the footnote of a galaxy. I don't want the council races to be what the elcor/hanar/drell etc are to the Milky Way.

I would prefer the opposite, personally. In ME1 you were looking at the galaxy through the eyes of a newcomer. The Asari, Turians, Salarians, Volus, Elcor, Hanar were all new. Around every corner was a new "wtf is that? Fascinating" moment. The Stanford-Torus design of the Presidium, the Wards, Omega which was both immediately alien and reminiscent of Bladerunner to me, speaking to the Geth for the first time- the series was full of moments of discovery and exploration.

And the only way I really see to get that feeling back in a new story is to start almost totally fresh.

The alternative, of course, is to continue exploring unexplored relay space in the milky way- BUT you'd have to canonize an ending. There's no avoiding it. So there's a trade-off solely because Bioware wrote themselves into this corner.

[Drone223]

For (1) and (3), We know that the Reapers pay no attention to the need for supply lines, and given that the war would last a century by Liara's projections, if they DO need to refuel it could easily be a very, very long time. Possibly long enough for a galactic trip.

(2) can easily be addressed, like I pointed out earlier, by reverse engineering Reaper tech.

(4) is easily ignored by cryogenics.

(5) is difficult, yes, but not insurmountable and is easily addresses by a narrative hand wave of "they found a habitable planet(s), and established a new colony/civilization, moving on with the story now"

(6) is easily addressed by putting the setting far enough after colonization that their civilization is somewhat established before first contact is made.

So none of these seem particularly problematic to me.

1-2. There is now way we can reverse engineer reaper tech in such a short amount of time, it would take a good few years to do so, to which the galaxy has already invested its resources into the crucible.

3. Since they'll have no means to replace the decayed element zero they'll pretty much have to carry a lot of it and element zero is very rare, it will be impossible to find that much eezo in such a short time

4. Maintaining the cryogenics will in itself be a challenge since it would mean power will have to be distributed between life support and the systems ruining the ship, also the food supply may eventually decay, doing it for several centuries will be problematic.

5-6. That's another way of saying plot armor which we don't need and they may not luxury of waiting for first contact since they can always come to them and lacking the proper equipment to defend themselves if the species is hostile means they won't survive for very long.

[Kabooooom]

1-2. There is now way we can reverse engineer reaper tech in such a short amount of time, it would take a good few years to do so, to which the galaxy has already invested its resources into the crucible.
3. Since they'll have no means to replace the decayed element zero they'll pretty much have to carry a lot of it and element zero is very rare, it will be impossible to find that much eezo in such a short time
4. Maintaining the cryogenics will in itself be a challenge since it would mean power will have to be distributed between life support and the systems ruining the ship, also the food supply may eventually decay, doing it for several centuries will be problematic.
5-6. That's another way of saying plot armor which we don't need and they may not luxury of waiting for first contact since they can always come to them and lacking the proper equipment to defend themselves if the species is hostile means they won't survive for very long.

You do realize that all of these things are very easily avoided by the sort of hand-wavy narrative that Bioware was prone to throughout the Mass Effect trilogy, right? It didn't bother me each time they did it then, and it won't bother me (or you, I'm guessing) when they do it in the next game. Which I am sure they will, because whether they avoid ME3 or try to address it - both paths will require some degree of hand waving.

I could sit here all day coming up with ways around the points you brought up, and you could sit there all day coming up with ways around mine. It doesn't matter. Either way, Bioware will have to BS some aspects of the story to dig themselves out of the hole that ME3's ending left them in.

[Drone223]

You do realize that all of these things are very easily avoided by the sort of hand-wavy narrative that Bioware was prone to throughout the Mass Effect trilogy, right? It didn't bother me each time they did it then, and it won't bother me (or you, I'm guessing) when they do it in the next game. Which I am sure they will, because whether they avoid ME3 or try to address it - both paths will require some degree of hand waving.

It's alright as long as its reasonable, but it becomes a problem when it becomes ridiculous (LP is a good example) and ark theory will be no better than LP tbh.

[Kabooooom]

"LP"? Unfamiliar with that abbreviation.

Also, what do you think of the "Dark Energy Galaxy" idea, in which that galaxy map IS the milky way, but it is horrendously distorted and torn apart by dark energy accumulation?

[Malanek]

Lazarus Project. (Which incidentally I was OK, if not ecstatic, about)

[Kabooooom]

Lazarus Project. (Which incidentally I was OK, if not ecstatic, about)

Ah, gotcha. Yeah I agree. I loved the Lazarus Project, and even though my background is in biology I didn't have a problem with how it was presented, and lol'd at some of the objections people had to it. It's a sci-fi game for Christsakes.

But, that is exactly the sort of hand-waving I was talking about. And it didn't bother me. Only space magic truly bothered me.

[Drone223]

Ah, gotcha. Yeah I agree. I loved the Lazarus Project, and even though my background is in biology I didn't have a problem with how it was presented, and lol'd at some of the objections people had to it. It's a sci-fi game for Christsakes.

But, that is exactly the sort of hand-waving I was talking about. And it didn't bother me. Only space magic truly bothered me.

I think it was handled baldy, its only purpose was to get Shepard to join Cerberus nothing more and it got so many things wrong, from Shepard's body being intact after reentry to ignoring the experience of being dead (given the character's reaction's I guess dying and coming back from the dead is normal in the MEU), it served no purpose to the story at all (I can give you a whole list why its terrible), ark theory will be just as bad.

[Kabooooom]

I think it was handled baldy, its only purpose was to get Shepard to join Cerberus nothing more and it got so many things wrong, from Shepard's body being intact after reentry to ignoring the experience of being dead (given the character's reaction's I guess dying and coming back from the dead is normal in the MEU), it served no purpose to the story at all (I can give you a whole list why its terrible), ark theory will be just as bad.

Just because you fall from space does not mean that you will necessarily heat up on re-entry. The physics involved with adiabatic heating don't work in a way that "everything that falls from space burns up" like a lot of people seem to think. Granted, in the comics it shows him burning up on re-entry, so I guess that much is canon. Provided that his armor protected him from the worst of that, he would be crushed upon impact with the ground on Alchera...which he was.

I would love to hear your specific objections to Lazarus. PM me with them if you want, because I can probably counter most of them.

Also, why should he address what "being dead" is like? To Shepard, it was simply like losing consciousness and then regaining it. Did you want him to ruminate about the nature of an afterlife or something? If so, I'm glad Bioware avoided that topic like the plague. In fact, discussing it at all would probably be a bad idea, as even the naturalistic explanation (which they seem to favor from cut ME3 dialogue with Ashley) would probably ****** off any players who are religious. And for those like me who have a worldview rooted in science, it would have pissed me off if suddenly my Shepard believed in a fictitious afterlife and deity - especially after I told Ashley her beliefs were BS and to keep them to herself.

[Drone223]

^There are already threads on the biology issue's of LP which will probably explain it better than i can so look at those, here is one of them. (the issue's aren't restricted to science of it, there are story issues as well).

 

http://forum.bioware...azarus +project

 

 

The thing about being dead is that it would have a profound effect on Shepard, the mental trauma of knowing that he'd/she'd actually died would have changed the way he/she would see things in the universe and it wouldn't be something Shepard would casually go over as if it was another day in the office which unfortunately Shepard did (and its unbelievable some one would do so). Back to the point suspension of disbelief has its limits and if people start to find certain aspects too unbelievable (LP and ark theory) then people will have problems with it and it would damage the believability of the series.

[Kabooooom]

^There are already threads on the biology issue's of LP which will probably explain it better than i can so look at those, here is one of them. (the issue's aren't restricted to science of it, there are story issues as well).

http://forum.bioware...azarus +project


The thing about being dead is that it would have a profound effect on Shepard, the mental trauma of knowing that he'd/she'd actually died would have changed the way he/she would see things in the universe and it wouldn't be something Shepard would casually go over as if it was another day in the office which unfortunately Shepard did (and its unbelievable some one would do so). Back to the point suspension of disbelief has its limits and if people start to find certain aspects too unbelievable (LP and ark theory) then people will have problems with it and it would damage the believability of the series.

Lol, from what I just read of that thread, there were maybe two people in it with sufficient understanding of biology to know what the hell they were talking about. That's the problem with discussions like that. I'm not a historian, for example, so I'm not going to get into an Internet discussion about the validity of the portrayal of the Battle of Thermopylae in the movie 300. Why people who aren't knowledgeable in a given field spout nonsense online, I will never understand. So again, as a biologist I do not have a problem with the way the Lazarus Project was portrayed in a science fiction story, provided hand waving of futuristic technology and hand waving of how his brain was intact.

I was actually considering writing a thread awhile back on exactly how such a feat might be accomplished, but I figured it is too late after ME2 to be interesting to anyone.

[Drone223]

^People still have issue's with it, so I sure people we be interested in discussion it, but they should have at least given us an explanation of how it worked the instead of saying "advance tech" and "lots of resources" it might have been hard to understand but at least it would be some sort of explanation but that's another topic.

[squidney2k1]

Only way that would work is if the Reapers somehow put up relays outaide of the Galaxy. They never allowed species to evolve enough to do intergalactic travel.

[durasteel]

...
The problem with that, though, is canonizing an ending is unavoidable. And as was already said, this seems much, much worse than just avoiding the endings altogether - because when you canonize one, THAT'S where you belittle choices to the point of not mattering. ...

 

I think they pretty much did that the moment the Star Child Reaper God Catalyst started talkin'.

 

Canonizing might seem "much, much worse" to you, but there are a fair number of us who regard it as a best case scenario, and the last best hope for Mass Effect.

 

They killed the Blue Rose of Illum with nothing more than a line or two of text. Now you're suggesting that they should kill Illum, too--along with every other place we've ever visited or wanted to visit in Mass Effect. The entire galaxy should be sealed away, and we should never see it again, because it would just be such a damn shame if "refuse" or "synthesis" were "belittled" as player selected world states.

 

It boggles my mind to think that given the choice between preserving the synthesis ending or the entire known Mass Effect universe, you would prefer to hang on to the possibility of green space magic. 

[DextroDNA]

It's conceptual footage, how can you look so far into what is obviously conceptual artwork for a Galaxy Map?

Pls no Andromeda. Can we visit the other 99% of the Milky Way first?

copy+paste quote from Twitter thread: One thing that makes me think even less of the ark theory is that Casey said "travel to the other side of the Galaxy". I seriously doubt Andromeda has Relays, so how would we be travelling from one side of the Galaxy to the other?

If we're going to make all these wild assumptions and speculations from concept art, then we can't disregard that vital information.

Seriously though, concept art of Galaxy = completely outlandish ark theory? BSN pls.

[tg0618]

It's most likely still going to be in the Milky Way.  Casey says "Pick a planet across the other side of the galaxy." Which would leave one to assume that "the" galaxy he is speaking of is the Milky Way, seeing as that's the only galaxy ever mentioned or involved in any of the Mass Effect lore. He never says anything about a different galaxy. Also it's ME cannon that the Milky Way isn't even a full percent explored. Why go to another galaxy when we haven't even explore 1% of our own?

 

Most likely that picture isn't even in the context of what many are thinking it is. I could be a cluster, a nebula, heck, it probably won't even make it to the "final cut". It's just a "conceptual prototype".

 

But for the record, I think the Ark Theory would be pretty cool, as like , a spin off game or something, perhaps in an alternate universe/reality.

[Dubozz]

Pretty sure in the beginning of the ME4 relays are not working and you are on the other side of the galaxy. In the end you will reach the Earth. Two game will be fixed at the same time.

[Heimdall]

It's conceptual footage, how can you look so far into what is obviously conceptual artwork for a Galaxy Map?
Pls no Andromeda. Can we visit the other 99% of the Milky Way first?
copy+paste quote from Twitter thread: One thing that makes me think even less of the ark theory is that Casey said "travel to the other side of the Galaxy". I seriously doubt Andromeda has Relays, so how would we be travelling from one side of the Galaxy to the other?
If we're going to make all these wild assumptions and speculations from concept art, then we can't disregard that vital information.
Seriously though, concept art of Galaxy = completely outlandish ark theory? BSN pls.

Easy, either the more advanced technology Casey mentioned means the species have reached a point where they can construct their own Mass Relays or they encounter a new species building an analogous network. Or maybe FTL is fast enough now that Relays are unnecessary. There are so many unknowns here, you can't possibly take "travel to the other side of the galaxy" as proof of being in the MW. Indeed, that would be a bit odd when talking about new space, since we could already do that in previous games.

[Heimdall]

It's most likely still going to be in the Milky Way.  Casey says "Pick a planet across the other side of the galaxy." Which would leave one to assume that "the" galaxy he is speaking of is the Milky Way, seeing as that's the only galaxy ever mentioned or involved in any of the Mass Effect lore. He never says anything about a different galaxy. Also it's ME cannon that the Milky Way isn't even a full percent explored. Why go to another galaxy when we haven't even explore 1% of our own?
 
Most likely that picture isn't even in the context of what many are thinking it is. I could be a cluster, a nebula, heck, it probably won't even make it to the "final cut". It's just a "conceptual prototype".
 
But for the record, I think the Ark Theory would be pretty cool, as like , a spin off game or something, perhaps in an alternate universe/reality.

There's no reason to assume "the galaxy" they're speaking of is the MW, not when they're being so cagey about details in general.

It doesn't really matter that the MW is unexplored. It matters that the entire galaxy is affected by the ME3 endings wherever there are mass relays. That's what makes Ark Theory desirable. If we were to take a trip to areas far outside the relay network within the MW, cut off from the endings and the possible effects of the Crucible, the effect would be similar.

[Heimdall]

I think they pretty much did that the moment the Star Child Reaper God Catalyst started talkin'.
 
Canonizing might seem "much, much worse" to you, but there are a fair number of us who regard it as a best case scenario, and the last best hope for Mass Effect.
 
They killed the Blue Rose of Illum with nothing more than a line or two of text. Now you're suggesting that they should kill Illum, too--along with every other place we've ever visited or wanted to visit in Mass Effect. The entire galaxy should be sealed away, and we should never see it again, because it would just be such a damn shame if "refuse" or "synthesis" were "belittled" as player selected world states.
 
It boggles my mind to think that given the choice between preserving the synthesis ending or the entire known Mass Effect universe, you would prefer to hang on to the possibility of green space magic.

I see the Ark Theory as preserving everything and destroying nothing. It simply let's the MW and effects of the Reaper War be their own thing without forcing canonization or improbable homogenization while allowing a separate new storyline to take off.

You seem to want a continuation, durasteel, but I think Bioware has made it clear that their leaving the trilogy behind for a fresh start.

[DextroDNA]

Easy, either the more advanced technology Casey mentioned means the species have reached a point where they can construct their own Mass Relays or they encounter a new species building an analogous network. Or maybe FTL is fast enough now that Relays are unnecessary. There are so many unknowns here, you can't possibly take "travel to the other side of the galaxy" as proof of being in the MW. Indeed, that would be a bit odd when talking about new space, since we could already do that in previous games.

I'm sorry, if we can't take "travel to the other side of the Galaxy" as proof of being in the MW, then there's no way we can take "new region of space" as meaning another Galaxy.

[Senior Cinco]

There's no reason to assume "the galaxy" they're speaking of is the MW, not when they're being so cagey about details in general.

It doesn't really matter that the MW is unexplored. It matters that the entire galaxy is affected by the ME3 endings wherever there are mass relays. That's what makes Ark Theory desirable. If we were to take a trip to areas far outside the relay network within the MW, cut off from the endings and the possible effects of the Crucible, the effect would be similar.

 
I agree completely. The purpose of a conceptual video is to bring forth the ideas they have in play. While some are not going to make the final cut, others will. Jos Hendriks chimed in on another thread with this reply...
 
 
 

Not to be cynical, but I'm pretty sure it was all just trailer-material concept imagery, a display of engine capability. The likelihood of each of these obscure images of having importance in the final product isn't high.
 

Some of that is as-is work in progress in-engine stuff. Some of it technical tests for capability, some of it actual work.

 

Therefore there is no reason to say their intent was meant, without question, we are to remain in the MW. It does suggest that it is a fair speculation just as any other aspect of the video clips and verbiage.

[Vortex13]

I just found this lovely image on ME reddit 



Lol. Yeahh sooo, I think the most reasonable thing for Bioware to do is focus on new regions of the Milky Way rather than shoehorn in an entirely different galaxy that belittles all of the history and reputation we learned about our galaxy over the course of the trilogy. 

 

 

Over the course of the Mass Effect trilogy we have discovered/explored less then 1% of the Milky Way Galaxy.

 

Even if we round up and say that 3 ME titles = 1 % of the galaxy being discovered, that sill leaves 99 more trilogies; or 297 more games before we completely explore the entire galaxy and see what it has to offer.

[MattFini]

I was actually considering writing a thread awhile back on exactly how such a feat might be accomplished, but I figured it is too late after ME2 to be interesting to anyone.

 

Do it. I'd love to read it.