We are born. We live. We die.
I just summed all of our lives in seven words.
Apparently life is short and generic now.
But we don't inherit magical rift powers. While I generally have great distaste for the term Mary Sue. It's the Inquisitor in a nutshell if that proves accurate.
But we don't inherit magical rift powers.
Well maybe you don't.
In my mind, the only reason you make a character like Hawke is to continue with them for multiple titles(see also, Commander Shepard).
I think Exalted March would have lead in to the third game and would have gone a long way towards explaining why Hawke was stepping up towards bigger things, but I absolutely do not think that it would have been the end of Hawke's story under the original plan.
DA2 still isn't the end of Hawke's story. We probably just wont get to play as him again. BioWare have at multiple occasions hinted on Hawke's (and the Warden for that matter) inclusion in the future stories of Thedas.
Well, while standing by my previous statements, I'm also not entirely convinced the decision to get a different lead character was entirely based on fan reaction to Hawke so much as internal examination of exactly what they wanted to do with the next game and deciding another protagonist, a protagonist without a set origin, served them better.
Of course, I don't know what the catalyst behind the decision was; truthfully I don't know that the decision was made at all. It's completely possible others are right and Hawke was only ever meant for a game and expansion; I don't believe that, but I'm always the first to admit I might be wrong. Still, if I am right, I'm not going to presume to speculate further on the reasoning for the change.
There is always going to be some overlap in the development of game franchises. Sure, they were probably at some point spitballing that Hawke could be the protagonist of the 3rd game. But thena gain, they probably also suggested that the Warden could. It is a common practice of developing the games to go through such options. But they never got beyond that point. Hawke was never set to be the protagonist of DA:I and only changed later during the development.
Cassandra states why she was looking for Hawke in DA2: to serve as a voice of reason to the side they supported at the end of the game.
Which is kind of a shame- I honestly think DA2 would have worked better on some levels had Hawke died as a martyr for the mage revolution if they sided with the mages against the Annullment. It could have played well into the 'no one knows what the Champion actually was' idea that Varric and Cassandra paly around: that no matter what Hawke actually believed, that the martyr persona would have been twisted to suit the purposes and needs of others.
Plus, I appreciate the kick to the guts that it would have given much of the fanbase. Live, and die, by your morality in the face of assured defeat? How lame! Heroes don't die for their cause!
But the obvious drawbacks are obvious. Can't have the Champion serve as the voice of reason if they're already dead, after all. Cassandra's investigation loses much of its relevance afterwards.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
The good thing is, there's no possibility of Hawke being dead. Yet.
The Warden is more screwed. They're going to have to tie up that story eventually for all variations - since many Wardens CAN die. Hawke is hard coded (if you will) to keep living for the time being.
But we don't inherit magical rift powers. While I generally have great distaste for the term Mary Sue. It's the Inquisitor in a nutshell if that proves accurate.
If you're judging Mary Sue-ness by their ability to survive, then all protagonists are Mary Sues by virtue of staying alive throughout the entire game...
If you're judging Mary Sue-ness by their ability to survive, then all protagonists are Mary Sues by virtue of the reload button...
Thats upto the player. I've played games where I've never been killed. It's actually a pretty rare experience for me in an RPG.
I'm measuring it be a series of extreme coincidences that just happen to strike one individual.
Thats upto the player. I've played games where I've never been killed. It's actually a pretty rare experience for me in an RPG.
I'm measuring it be a series of extreme coincidences that just happen to strike one individual.
I'm sorry but how the hell can any main character in a game not have some elements of a Mary Sue? You could say the exact same thing about Hawke, there were a whole load of extreme coincidences their too. At least the Warden and the Inquisitor can be several different people.
I'm sorry but how the hell can any main character in a game not have some elements of a Mary Sue? You could say the exact same thing about Hawke, there were a whole load of extreme coincidences their too. At least the Warden and the Inquisitor can be several different people.
I could swear the earlier definitions of Mary Sueness used to very specifically state the term was not suitable for applying to the protagonist of a story, because they'd all end up being defined as Mary Sues if we did that, and it was more aimed at the 17 year old tragic, stunning supergenius you'd inserted into your Kirk/Spock fanfic.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I could swear the earlier definitions of Mary Sueness used to very specifically state the term was not suitable for applying to the protagonist of a story, because they'd all end up being defined as Mary Sues if we did that, and it was more aimed at the 17 year old tragic, stunning supergenius you'd inserted into your Kirk/Spock fanfic.
Not always fanfic though. Roddenberry himself made a Mary Sue (Marty Stu) when he created Wesley Crusher.
Not always fanfic though. Roddenberry himself made a Mary Sue (Marty Stu) when he created Wesley Crusher.
Hah, I wonder what the odds are that's the character that caused a bit of mission creep in the definition. Still, I tend to think of it more as mary sue's come from fanfic, if the offender is from the original material it's an extremely unfortunate creative decision.
Not always fanfic though. Roddenberry himself made a Mary Sue (Marty Stu) when he created Wesley Crusher.
That wasn't entirely Roddenberry's fault, nor was so at the character's creation.
What happened was they worked up three separate "Wesley saves the day" scripts, figuring that between the three of them, there'd be enough good ideas to merge into a single episode.
Then there was a writer's strike, so they ended up having to use all three.
Which isn't to say creators can't come up with Mary Sue's for their own work, happens all the time. Just that Wesley is a complicated example.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
That wasn't entirely Roddenberry's fault, nor was so at the character's creation.
What happened was they worked up three separate "Wesley saves the day" scripts, figuring that between the three of them, there'd be enough good ideas to merge into a single episode.
Then there was a writer's strike, so they ended up having to use all three.
Which isn't to say creators can't come up with Mary Sue's for their own work, happens all the time. Just that Wesley is a complicated example.
I had no idea about that. Nice bit of trivia, I guess.
It's a bit sad how Wes was eventually handled though. After Roddenberry died, the other writer took over and made him a failure of Starfleet. edit: Wait, he eventually had a good end with the "Traveler", right?
He cracks me up when he appears on Big Bang Theory.
I had no idea about that. Nice bit of trivia, I guess.
It's a bit sad how Wes was eventually handled though. After Roddenberry died, the other writer took over and made him a failure of Starfleet. edit: Wait, he eventually had a good end with the "Traveler", right?
Hell if I know; hardly ever watched Star Trek.
Just one of the random bit's of trivia I've picked up on the internet.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Hell if I know; hardly ever watched Star Trek.
Just one of the random bit's of trivia I've picked up on the internet.
That's funny. I've probably watched all 7 seasons 4 or 5 times. /trekkie
And yet you know more than me. 
That's funny. I've probably watched all 7 seasons 4 or 5 times. /trekkie
And yet you know more than me.
Have you ever listened to Wil Wheaton's Memories of the Futurecast podcasts, they've got some interesting bits and pieces on what was going on in the first season.
I could swear the earlier definitions of Mary Sueness used to very specifically state the term was not suitable for applying to the protagonist of a story, because they'd all end up being defined as Mary Sues if we did that, and it was more aimed at the 17 year old tragic, stunning supergenius you'd inserted into your Kirk/Spock fanfic.
Makes sense although I think it is applicable when the main character is just the author implanted in the story. especially if they are loved and worshiped by everyone eg Bella Swan from Twilight.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Have you ever listened to Wil Wheaton's Memories of the Futurecast podcasts, they've got some interesting bits and pieces on what was going on in the first season.
Nope.. haven't actually delved into side material much. So maybe not a diehard trekkie. Just love the shows themselves.
Mary Sues and Marty Stus are defined by your ability to wear them as a pair of pants, a self-insert fantasy character that you can become. The original Superman was a Marty Stu, for instance, because that was kind of the point of comic books at that time, to be a self-insert power fantasy for young boys.
Thus, RPG protags are gonna be a bit Mary Sue/Marty Stuish. That's a given. But how complex your character actually is is entirely dependent on your choices in the game.
Do you really think that Bioware would have made us play a WHOLE GAME in the shoes of a character that, just after becoming one of the most powerful men in all Thedas, was ment to be recruited as a mediator, fail at his task and be replaced by someone else with no experience and no background knowledge of mages/templars matters? All of this off screen after you've played a whole game from his perspective?
"Ok: you've spent 40+ hours of your life just to see how the mages vs templars wars began in the shoes of a character that was little more than a witness. Cool eh? Now forget about him, for the whole DA2 we have hyped up an encounter with Cassandra, but now we are going to leave it off screen. We have built up a plot around Hawke to make him fail exactly when he was finally going to do something himself and not at someone else's orders and we won't even show it. Enjoy this new story with a brand new character instead". Do you really think this was the plan from the beginning?
Ok that DA2 was a crappy game, but I refuse to imagine it was bad to this extent.
We have no idea about the actual origins of the inquisitor. We have no idea if they have no experience in leading people or mediating arguments. We know nothing except the fact that the Inquisitor is marked by the fade during an explosion. Hawke wasn't just a witness to the start, they started the war.
Who knows the Inquisitor could be a second Cole, a spirit who has taken over the life of a person who was killed during the breach. The inquisitor could have been a caterer at the big shindig where it all started. They could have been a dude on his way home from selling some beef in Tevinter. Could be a pirate on the run from the Qunari. Could have been a general or a priest. WE KNOW NOTHING. Stop criticizing crap we don't actually know anything about.
And I liked DA2.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Hawke wasn't just a witness to the start, they started the war.
I didn't start anything. 
Hawke was just some lucky immigrant, who bought maps from a psychopath. Then he couldn't get that psychopath out of his life. Suddenly Anders appears 7 years later and blows up the Chantry. My Hawke is left to pick up the pieces going "WTF?"
We have no idea about the actual origins of the inquisitor. We have no idea if they have no experience in leading people or mediating arguments. We know nothing except the fact that the Inquisitor is marked by the fade during an explosion. Hawke wasn't just a witness to the start, they started the war.
Anders is Nitro and Hawke is this guy.
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I liked Hawke. I don't care if I don't get to play her/him again, but I hope they don't go out like some random punk. They've already had enough trouble.
And I especially hope they don't kill them off just to please people who don't even like Bioware anymore.
I liked Hawke as well.
DA2 had its problems but I don't consider it a bad game.I think a lot of people who rant and rave all the time about bad games have never actually played a bad game.
Come talk to me when you've played Universal Studios Theme Park Adventure, then we'll talk about terrible video games.
I've heard the theory about how Hawke was meant to be Inquisitor before, it makes sense but I don't think that even if it's true that it's going to cripple DA:I in any way.
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