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[MisterJB]

Masked Empire Page 47: "Celene had once, in her younger years, hoped to do through marriage what Meghren and his apocryphal mabari had failed to do by force. With the strength of Ferelden behind it willingly, the Orlesian Empire would have had the power to drive back Nevarran agression and even give Tevinter pause."

 

Dragon Age Origins Banter between Loghain and Wynne at Ostagar:

• Loghain: Are you blind, old woman? The plot is plain as day within this letter! Love or no, Cailan was going to cast my daughter aside and wed himself to that ******, Celene. In a single vow, Orlais would claim all that they could never win by war! And what would Ferelden gain? Our fool of a king could strut about and call himself an emperor.
• Wynne: And what of peace? Would it not bring us that, at least?
• Loghain: Peace? I would have thought your age might have granted more wisdom, madam. Peace just means fighting someone else's enemies in someone else's war for someone else's reasons.

[Han Shot First]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Loghain was right. He had legitimate reasons for his being being paranoid about both Celene and Cailan's intentions, but he was also wrong in seeing Orlais as Ferelden's greatest threat instead of the darkspawn. Loghain nearly destroys the nation he thinks he is saving, and would have had the Warden not been around to rescue it. In short, at Ostagar Loghain makes a massive strategic blunder.

[thats1evildude]

But he was totally wrong about an Orlesian plot to invade Ferelden. Celene never had any plans to do so, as confirmed by TME. And had he not betrayed Cailan, Ferelden would have had Orlesian support to fight the darkspawn.

It changes nothing.

[mikeymoonshine]

That's what made him so interesting. His suspicions were spot on and sensible but he underestimated the blight and didn't know that you actually do need Grey Wardens to stop it. 

[Former_Fiend]

Regarding this specific thing(Celene's reasoning for wanting to peacefully conquer Ferelden), Loghain was indeed absolutely right.

 

Something that brought me no end of joy when I first read the book. I even updated The Masked Empire's trope page and Loghain's character sheet on TV tropes to reflect it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's not exactly news that Celene had her eye on Ferelden but it doesn't actually make his particular strategy of dealing with it wise or justified. It also depends on whether Loghain was referring to peace with Orlais in general or peace via the marriage of Celene and Calian.

[Gervaise]

Anora also had it spot on when she said the tragedy was that her father truly believed he was doing the best for Ferelden but his obsession with Orlais had clouded his judgement (or words to that effect).   Loghain was wrong to sacrifice an important part of Ferelden's forces (the Ash Warriors) and the Grey Wardens in order to remove Cailan from the throne.   (It would have been much simpler and less wasteful of lives to have him assassinated).   However, he was right to be suspicious of Orlais and of Cailan's ability to maintain Ferelden independence.   I think he was also right that if they had allowed the Chevaliers in to help in the war, they would have had one hell of a job getting them to leave again - bearing in mind that Gaspard was probably with them.   Loghain was a tragic character of Shakespearean proportions.

 

Initially I always executed him but then I created a Warden character who would have good reasons for sparing him (plus had by that time downloaded the Ostagar DLC so had even better reasons).    In the end I was quite glad that recruiting him gave him the opportunity to redeem himself, particularly as my noble warden married Anora and lived on without having to do Morrigan's wretched ritual.    He died knowing he had left Ferelden in good hands, the Warden as well as Anora.    Having read Masked Empire I am so glad Celene's plans for Ferelden didn't succeed.

[TheViper8234]

Still I'll be choosing Alistair to duel and cut his head off .He's good in the books, but I can't stand him in the game . sorry 

[KC_Prototype]

If he was right, he still be dead with his head rolling on the floor. But he wasn't. He was a traitor to the country he loved and too paranoid of Orlais to see the true threat and he deserved to die for his crimes. Ferelden was protected from him with his demise. 

[Mr.House]

If he was right, he still be dead with his head rolling on the floor. But he wasn't. He was a traitor to the country he loved and too paranoid of Orlais to see the true threat and he deserved to die for his crimes. Ferelden was protected from him with his demise. 

And when Ferelden was back under Orlais grab, Loghain and Maric would be laughing their asses off at that idiot king called Cailan who just threw away everything.

[MisterJB]

If he was right, he still be dead with his head rolling on the floor. But he wasn't. He was a traitor to the country he loved and too paranoid of Orlais to see the true threat and he deserved to die for his crimes. Ferelden was protected from him with his demise. 

You've just been presented with indisputable truth that he was right in the matter of Cailan's and Celene's plans.

Whether he made the right decision in abandoning Cailain is not what is being discussed.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Is there a reason Ferelden SHOULDN'T become part of the Orlesian Empire?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Because they don't want to.

People don't know what they want or not.

 

It would probably advance Ferelden well beyond their current standards, economically, militarily, politically and culturally. The only "downside" is that they would lose their vaunted independance.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Is there a reason Ferelden SHOULDN'T become part of the Orlesian Empire?

Trade as far only sane but flawed country for another super corrupted country nah i think that tevinter ,orlais and antiva are enough.

[ShadowLordXII]

So he was right, but for the wrong reasons?

 

Doesn't justify him or his in the slightest. Particularly since neither he nor players have any way of confirming this until now. Even so, it also doesn't change how the Fifth Blight threatened Ferelden far more and all of Thedas beyond that.

[Han Shot First]

Is there a reason Ferelden SHOULDN'T become part of the Orlesian Empire?

 

If Celene and Cailan had married the union of the two countries would have either involved the freeholders and nobility of Ferelden losing some of their traditional rights, or the nobility in Orlais losing some of theirs. In either case you are going to have some very disgruntled nobles, and I can't see the union between the two nations lasting very long. Sooner or later Ferelden and Orlais would tear themselves apart again, and likely after another bloody war. The nations are far too different.

 

Also a union with Orlais would be very bad for the average person in Ferelden if that involved Ferelden moving towards a more Orlesian style of rule. The rights of the lower classes would be practically nonexistent, whereas in Ferelden at least those who own land have some rights, as the various Banns need to occasionally pander to them and court their favor.

[EmperorSahlertz]

If Celene and Cailan had married the union of the two countries would have either involved the freeholders and nobility of Ferelden losing some of their traditional rights, or the nobility in Orlais losing some of theirs. In either case you are going to have some very disgruntled nobles, and I can't see the union between the two nations lasting very long. Sooner or later Ferelden and Orlais would tear themselves apart again, and likely after another bloody war. The nations are far too different.

 

Also a union with Orlais would be very bad for the average person in Ferelden if that involved Ferelden moving towards a more Orlesian style of rule. The rights of the lower classes would be practically nonexistent, whereas in Ferelden at least those who own land have some rights, as the various Banns need to occasionally pander to them and court their favor.

An annexation doesn't happen over night. Ferelden would have been a vassal state or satrapy for a couple of generations, before they would be completely absorbed by the Orlesian Empire. The current generation of Fereldans wouldn't even have noticed any difference.

And the freeholders in Ferelden have rights sure.... But the banns are still free to slaughter them like cattle if the freeholders happen support another bann.. Don't fool yourself, Ferelden is NOT a nice place.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's still slightly nicer than Orlais. Ferelden doesn't have the same level of brutal political intrigue for example.

[godModeAlpha]

Big difference ... Orlesians look down on ferelden, who would likely get second choice on spoils had they married.

Also Celine is a control freak, plays the game, would likely eventually poison Cailain so it looks like he died of natural causes. After all would not be the first time she did such to get more power.

But you are right about Loghain's logic there.

Killing Loghain, which I did always, was though especially knowing how much he helped Maric. In the long run I think his daughter summed it well, as someone mentioned.

[MisterJB]

Being a vassal state before being absorbed are hardly appealing options.

[Steelcan]

Good guy Loghain, always with an eye on those sneaky orlesians