413 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcfly616]

Maybe....

 

 

 

With the most advanced technological weapon ever conceived....probably.

[Gtdef]

A pulse that only destroys certain tech is already pretty iffy.

 

I mean, can you create an EMP that will only  fry Android software, and leave everything else alone, but will reach any and all such units, no matter where they run and hide?

 

 

 

Even assuming that reaper tech has a certain signature that the crucible beam will search and destroy, what is the discriminating factor? The material? The coding structure? Both EDI and Geth have reaper tech. The thanix cannon is reaper tech. If it's the reaper material, then EDI been made from reaper materials is new information that is not reflected in the game. It's just too confusing. 

 

And if EDI was infact made from hybrid material, why cerberus doesn't know why collectors harvest organics in the previous game. They had the material, they could analyze it. Are we expected to assume that cerberus made a device with alien materials without knowing their properties?

 

Perhaps some of the questions are not valid. Perhaps the material is just easy to work with and they didn't have to analyze it. It's just that for 10 minutes in game time we have to change everything we know about the particular universe, make wild assumptions and guess the intentions of the writers.

[Iakus]

Maybe....

 

 

 

With the most advanced technological weapon ever conceived....probably.

In other words :

 

A Wizard Did It

[JonathonPR]

I would be happy if the entirety of ME3 and most of ME2 was retconed in the next game. I would only buy the next Mass Effect game if the ending of ME3 raw retconed. The Mass Effect setting is a great setting for video games but it was scared by some pore decisions about core narrative points. If the expanded universe of Star Wars can be retconed than Mass Effect can do similar. 

[Mcfly616]

Except that Star Wars isn't retconning RotJ (and those stupid Ewoks)

[Mcfly616]

In other words :

 

A Wizard Did It

 No....

 

 

I'm pretty sure the collective knowledge of the advanced civilizations over the course of the Reaper cycles did.

[Xilizhra]

I can objectively demonstrate the inherent failure of both Synthesis and Control in regards to the indefinite continuation of galactic civilization as we know it. I've gone into great detail in my Deception Theory thread. I don't like any of the endings. Destroy is not loved by me and I would never choose it as "my ending". It is simply the only viable ending given the assumption of a non-reaper enemy. So don't strawman this into a "placing your own ending on a pedestal" argument. That path skirts dangerously close to personal attack as opposed to a critical evaluation of the presented argument.

The issue with Control is that the Reapers pushed for this in The Illusive Man. He was indoctrinated and this is what he, and therefore the Reapers, wanted. If Control was viable the Reapers would have simply policed the galaxy instead of exterminating organic life. They have millions or billions of years experience and untold cognitive power, but a sole human of 30 odd years is going to figure out what they could not? It's absurd. Policing the Galaxy was actually the Reaper's original mandate; To keep the organic thralls alive and in check was the Leviathan's intent. The Reapers could not facilitate this. Hence the Cycles as a solution. The only outcome of Control is the return of the Cycles down the line. There are other details that are too numerous to post here, but everything about the ending points to Shepard being changed in the transformation from organic to synthetic intelligence.


So the series could continue post Control... BUT!!! Control could work assuming Mass Effect 4 heralds the return to the Cycles. BUT!!!... haven't they said this will be an entirely new threat?

Synthesis shows a lot of things. I don't want to get into all the details, but for synthesis to work the fundamental qualities of what makes organics organic, the very reasons the Reapers claim to do what they do, must be curtailed. A purely physiological alteration will not solve that problem. And let's face it, the physical changes are minor at best. Furthermore, the mannerisms of the people depicted demonstrate a psychological change. Their behavior compared to other endings, their smiles and whatnot show a people too docile toward the beings who just ravaged them. Any player character in such a universe could not function at the behest of the player. You would be, in essence, a reaper program. Part of that synthetic hive mind. It would not make sense for you to have choices. I hope you understand what I'm getting at. Furthermore, if everyone makes up this intergalactic Reaper or these interplanetary diffused Reapers how can conflict exist?

Actually, your first point about Control is not accurate. The Catalyst's purpose (note that the Leviathans did not build the Reapers) was to find a permanent means of securing peace between organics and synthetics, not to run some kind of space patrol. The Catalyst presumably decided that the Leviathans were either the source of the problem or part of it, and killed them all, but made sure to find a way to preserve them in some form. Additionally, the Catalyst does not value individual life, presumably due to being programmed by the Leviathans; the Shepard-Catalyst, on the other hand, was created by Shepard and would share Shepard's values.

 

As for Synthesis, the only qualities the Catalyst alluded to involved organics seeking power through technology, and the change seems to involve making organics' bodies more easily compatible with technological upgrades, thus reducing the need for potentially dangerous synthetic partners. Meanwhile, the synthetics now have all necessary insight into organics and will be less likely to provoke organics as a whole into a massive war... especially since synthetics and organics can likely now communicate far more easily. The Reapers might take some getting used to, but since the odds of individual angry people destroying them is extremely low and since they've apparently been nothing but helpful, I think peace would come soon enough; people are good at getting used to things.

[Faerlyte]

I don't ever want to think about ME3 ever again. If the endings were never alluded to in any fashion, I'd be thrilled. It was so bad, I can't take it seriously. 

[The Twilight God]

So that's why the Reapers turned on Cerberus when they found out how to control them.

The Reapers were never with Cerberus. I'm not sure what you mean.

They never controlled a Reaper. They were able to control husks and their own soldiers at short range. Which are effectively mindless drones.

[Deebo305]

Except that Star Wars isn't retconning RotJ (and those stupid Ewoks)

Oh god lol, I laugh whenever someone attempts to praise that movie and defend Akakin's "redemption"

[The Twilight God]

The catalyst states that "the solution won't work any more". That means that what happens in ME3 is a game changer. No point in going back to the cycles.

And yet that is exactly what is done in Refuse. The Kid, who is not the Catalyst ("Catalyst" was just a code name the Proteans used for the Citadel), is a demonstrated liar. But that's a whole different subject matter.
 

-It summons Shepard into his home when he clearly has lost the ability to influence the situation any more. He falls unconscious while the reapers decimate the fleet.

It does not summon him. It asked why is he even there depending on EMS.
 

-It wakes him up and tells him that what's done is done but now it's solution won't work any more.

It tells several lies as well. If Shepard does goes down one route and then tries to switch to another, the Reaper fleet reaches and Destroys the Crucible. Basically, he took too much time. (i.e. the entire conversation is the Reapers buying time). The Crucible changed nothing. I go over all this in the Deception Theory thread. It's air tight and I'm not going to retype everything here.
 

-Then it gives him FREE reign to do what he wants. It allows Shepard to kill it. The only reason for it to do that is because it thinks Shepard is better equipped to make this decision.

It can't stop him. It's just an image; possibly in his own head. Not a physical entity. It doesn't "give" him anything. It doesn't "allow" him to anything. It's not in a position to do anything but coax him into one action vs. another.
 

You claim that the last part is absurd. If you think that reapers are so much more advanced and all knowing then you have to accept that Shepard is THE ONLY BEING in the current world that has the ability to make the right decision because they said so.

It isn't Shepard's decisions. Control and Synthesis are the Reapers' decisions. Only Destroy represents his initial intent and it's the first thing the Reapers address and the one painted in the most negative light (negative things that proved to be totally false). Then they swoop in with their (if taken truthfully) objectively superior choices to dissuade Shepard from Destroy.

[The Twilight God]

Even assuming that reaper tech has a certain signature that the crucible beam will search and destroy, what is the discriminating factor? The material? The coding structure? Both EDI and Geth have reaper tech. The thanix cannon is reaper tech. If it's the reaper material, then EDI been made from reaper materials is new information that is not reflected in the game. It's just too confusing. 
 
And if EDI was infact made from hybrid material, why cerberus doesn't know why collectors harvest organics in the previous game. They had the material, they could analyze it. Are we expected to assume that cerberus made a device with alien materials without knowing their properties?
 
Perhaps some of the questions are not valid. Perhaps the material is just easy to work with and they didn't have to analyze it. It's just that for 10 minutes in game time we have to change everything we know about the particular universe, make wild assumptions and guess the intentions of the writers.

The deciding factor is synthesized material. Organic-synthetic organisms would be distinct from say just organic or just synthetic. Reapers are of a distinct and alien construction. As I said, the very endings show this. The husk disintegrate, but not the Dreadnaughts. Because only Synthesized material is effected. This is shown in the ending. The Reaper within the Dreadnaught died. The ships remained. All the datapads, Shepard's implants, Kasumi's implants, Tali's suit, the Normandy's electronics, etc. were unscathed.

The Geth have no Reaper tech. Just because a Reaper makes some programing changes doesn't make the program Reaper tech. Just like if a Microsoft took some Apple software and altered it the software wouldn't become Microsoft software. Or would a better example be, if a Reaper genetically modified a human to have stronger muscles (purely organic), the human doesn't cease to be human. Humans do this to their own soldiers. No matter what that Reaper did it would still be ones and zeros. They aren't synthesized. They aren't even physical. They are programs. They are programs housed in every day materials. EDI's quantum blue box was made of Soveriegn's "brain matter". There is a difference.

[The Twilight God]

Actually, your first point about Control is not accurate. The Catalyst's purpose (note that the Leviathans did not build the Reapers) was to find a permanent means of securing peace between organics and synthetics, not to run some kind of space patrol. The Catalyst presumably decided that the Leviathans were either the source of the problem or part of it, and killed them all, but made sure to find a way to preserve them in some form. Additionally, the Catalyst does not value individual life, presumably due to being programmed by the Leviathans; the Shepard-Catalyst, on the other hand, was created by Shepard and would share Shepard's values.

The Shepard overlord was created by the Reapers. Shepard didn't do anything but commit suicide. He didn't build the device, he didn't know the specs and didn't consciously break down his own atoms and convert his own memories to digital. The Reapers did. And who knows what exactly came out the other end. The fact that it claims to be immortal, infinite, etc. tells me all I need to know. The device was preinstalled by the Reapers. They planned it BEFORE the Crucible ever docked. It's a failsafe option in case anyone actually made it.

As far as the Reapers valuing individual life, they don't value any life. Seeing as they exterminate life. They don't take a sample, build a Reaper and then leave the rest to "inevitably" kill themselves. They completely eradicate advanced life.
 

As for Synthesis, the only qualities the Catalyst alluded to involved organics seeking power through technology, and the change seems to involve making organics' bodies more easily compatible with technological upgrades, thus reducing the need for potentially dangerous synthetic partners. Meanwhile, the synthetics now have all necessary insight into organics and will be less likely to provoke organics as a whole into a massive war... especially since synthetics and organics can likely now communicate far more easily. The Reapers might take some getting used to, but since the odds of individual angry people destroying them is extremely low and since they've apparently been nothing but helpful, I think peace would come soon enough; people are good at getting used to things.

Why do organics make synthetics in the first place?

Moving on.

If the Reapers are the product of some Intelligence, then the Reaper's modus operandi is that of said Intelligence. It created the Proto-Reapers to facilitate its own objective. That objective being to preserve life. It could not do this. Hence the Cycles and the Reapers. The Reapers are just an extension of the Intelligence. The obvious first option to prevent these supposed genocidal wars is to simply prevent organics from making synthetics through force. Or control both parties through force. If I ask a five year old how do I keep foxes from eating the hens I guarantee you "kill then all, turn them to meat jelly or taxidermy them and "preserve" them in hen and fox replicas" is not going to be the first, second or third idea that pops up in their head. Or anyone's head.

To claim that they were not intended to be space police at some point is absurd. What is the most obvious means at their disposal to keep organics and synthetics in check? You'd have me believe that within all those millions or billion of years, with all the computational power, that the Reapers never once considered just policing everyone? So they are stupid is what you are saying? That any human child is smarter than the collective intelligence of trillions of AI programs? Otherwise, your statement doesn't hold up. They already know Control is unfeasible (or more likely the Kid's reasoning was a lie) and the Control device indoctrinates the person into the Reaper mindset. They used the same lighting effect as depicted in the comics (written by ME3's lead writer) for Reaper transformation machines. Plus all Reapers are a product of similar process. They are all organic to synthetic minds. And they all went from opposing the Reapers to being the monster they opposed. There is no way around the problems with Control and Synthesis.


The "Catalyst" is just a codename the Protheans used to hide the Citadel's connection with their Crucible device. The Kid cannot be the Cataylst. The Protheans did not know about any "Star Child". Claiming itself to be "The Catalyst" was a bold faced lie to convince Shepard that it was relevant to the situation. The entire ending is an indoctrination attempt. The Reapers essentially want to turn you to their way of thinking. Every part of the scene borrows from the Codex entry on Indoctrination. The very fact that the Kid looks like that kid in the beginning shows it's in Shepard's head. That is what Synthesis and Destroy represent: Being indoctrinated. The final boss is Indoctrination. It's kind of brilliant in a way.

[Xilizhra]

The Shepard overlord was created by the Reapers. Shepard didn't do anything but commit suicide. He didn't build the device, he didn't know the specs and didn't consciously break down his own atoms and convert his own memories to digital. The Reapers did. And who knows what exactly came out the other end. The fact that it claims to be immortal, infinite, etc. tells me all I need to know. The device was preinstalled by the Reapers. They planned it BEFORE the Crucible ever docked. It's a failsafe option in case anyone actually made it.

The Leviathans were the ones who built the Catalyst, and I'm fairly sure the Citadel; since the device seems directly hooked into the Catalyst, it seems rather unlikely and convoluted that the Reapers built it as opposed to the Leviathans. Given the Leviathans' mania for control, I actually would consider most likely that the Catalyst's personality imprint was that of a lifelong and loyal thrall uploaded into the AI computer network; such a setup would also possibly make the most sense for a being supposed to create permanent peace between synthetic and organic.

 

As far as the Reapers valuing individual life, they don't value any life. Seeing as they exterminate life. They don't take a sample, build a Reaper and then leave the rest to "inevitably" kill themselves. They completely eradicate advanced life.

The point being that the Reapers not only want to upload all the minds they can into new Reapers, they want to remove the possibility of robot wars that might wipe out all organic life permanently.

 

If the Reapers are the product of some Intelligence, then the Reaper's modus operandi is that of said Intelligence. It created the Proto-Reapers to facilitate its own objective. That objective being to preserve life. It could not do this. Hence the Cycles and the Reapers. The Reapers are just an extension of the Intelligence. The obvious first option to prevent these supposed genocidal wars is to simply prevent organics from making synthetics through force. Or control both parties through force. If I ask a five year old how do I keep foxes from eating the hens I guarantee you "kill then all, turn them to meat jelly or taxidermy them and "preserve" them in hen and fox replicas" is not going to be the first, second or third idea that pops up in their head. Or anyone's head.

That was not the objective. The objective was to make peace between organics and synthetics so the Leviathans would stop having their tribute interrupted. And apparently just trying to stop synthetics from being built didn't work, otherwise the Leviathans wouldn't have built the Catalyst to figure out a lasting solution; why it didn't work is another question altogether, but it's possible that the Leviathans simply couldn't control enough of the galaxy directly.

 

To claim that they were not intended to be space police at some point is absurd. What is the most obvious means at their disposal to keep organics and synthetics in check? You'd have me believe that within all those millions or billion of years, with all the computational power, that the Reapers never once considered just policing everyone? So they are stupid is what you are saying? That any human child is smarter than the collective intelligence of trillions of AI programs? Otherwise, your statement doesn't hold up. They already know Control is unfeasible (or more likely the Kid's reasoning was a lie) and the Control device indoctrinates the person into the Reaper mindset. They used the same lighting effect as depicted in the comics (written by ME3's lead writer) for Reaper transformation machines. Plus all Reapers are a product of similar process. They are all organic to synthetic minds. And they all went from opposing the Reapers to being the monster they opposed. There is no way around the problems with Control and Synthesis.

I think it's because the Catalyst is either shackled, or the thrall who was used in its creation is so conditioned that it operates the same way. The way it makes the most sense to me is that the Leviathans tried the space patrol route once and it failed; either that, or they just didn't want to expend any effort keeping it up. Either way, they made the Catalyst and ensured that it could only have one mandate: to create lasting peace between organics and synthetics. As for why it uses the Reapers to harvest the various cycles, I think it's clearing out each cycle so that the next cycle will be different and might have the characteristics that would ultimately lead to lasting peace. Either way, Shepard doesn't have the same shackles, and the Catalyst has realized that its stopgap will no longer work in the future, so it offers Shepard the chance of doing what she will.

 

The "Catalyst" is just a codename the Protheans used to hide the Citadel's connection with their Crucible device. The Kid cannot be the Cataylst. The Protheans did not know about any "Star Child". Claiming itself to be "The Catalyst" was a bold faced lie to convince Shepard that it was relevant to the situation. The entire ending is an indoctrination attempt. The Reapers essentially want to turn you to their way of thinking. Every part of the scene borrows from the Codex entry on Indoctrination. The very fact that the Kid looks like that kid in the beginning shows it's in Shepard's head. That is what Synthesis and Destroy represent: Being indoctrinated. The final boss is Indoctrination. It's kind of brilliant in a way.

"Catalyst" was not a term invented by the Protheans; it turned up far earlier in the line of the cycles who tried to build the Crucible. Presumably the term was coined by those who first tried to interface the Crucible with the Citadel; the Catalyst seems to know of them, and something happened there that would have taken too long to explain (which is something, considering how long the Catalyst speaks). It may have changed its name from "Intelligence" to "Catalyst" during that time period, but we can't really know.

 

What we can know is that everything in the EC blatantly disproves indoctrination. For your theory to be correct, Bioware would not only have to be far more brilliant and subtle than they've ever demonstrated themselves to be (including spreading false rumors about the closed nature of the ending's writing), but they'd have to utterly squander it by lying to fans for years on end, tainting their brand identity for a false flag ending that hasn't had any payoff for over two years now. Do you think EA would ever allow that? Do you think that Bioware would willingly tar themselves with the hatred of fans for a scheme this bizarre? Who could possibly gain from it? Certainly not the vast majority of the game's target audience; hell, any game's target audience.

[Schmonozov]

I would rejoice in happiness...

[DanishViking]

Honestly im over it 

if they want to mention the ending im ok with it

i use to be angry about it but now i just

 

[durasteel]

Honestly im over it 

if they want to mention the ending im ok with it

i use to be angry about it but now i just

 

[let it go gif]

 

I'll be over it as soon as the MEU moves on. Once there is another story that takes me to the Citadel and the ME galaxy, set after the trilogy so that I'm looking at characters on my screen that are "over it," I doubt I'll care much about the steaming pile of ending.

 

Also, I answer your meme gif with a jpeg...

 

 

And a link:

Mass Effect Frozen Parody “I Should Go”

[Nuclear]

If the real ending was Destroy I would be extremely pleased.

[DanishViking]

If the real ending was Destroy I would be extremely pleased.

Agreed !

[Xilizhra]

If the real ending was Destroy I would be extremely pleased.

If the real ending was Control, I would also be extremely pleased.

[Vegeta93]

If bioware do it will be the red ending its the easy thing to do.

[durasteel]

If bioware do it will be the red ending its the easy thing to do.

 

Nah, blue would actually be easier from a story perspective. Red leaves Shepard coughing up blood on a pile of rubble, so you have to put your sequel far enough down the timestream for Shep to die of old age, 'cause if you survive that ain't nothin' gonna kill you 'til you clock out. Blue, you can just say that after fixing a few things (like relays) and warning the races of the galaxy to eat their vegetables, Cyber Shepard and the Reapers vanished into the darkness between the stars, never to be seen again, like Arthur sodding off to Avalon until the UK wins the World Cup.

[Vegeta93]

Nah, blue would actually be easier from a story perspective. Red leaves Shepard coughing up blood on a pile of rubble, so you have to put your sequel far enough down the timestream for Shep to die of old age, 'cause if you survive that ain't nothin' gonna kill you 'til you clock out. Blue, you can just say that after fixing a few things (like relays) and warning the races of the galaxy to eat their vegetables, Cyber Shepard and the Reapers vanished into the darkness between the stars, never to be seen again, like Arthur sodding off to Avalon until the UK wins the World Cup.

I get your point but like in the blue ending i don´t think cyber shep is going to leave. Like he said he will give everyone a future or if his a renegade no one will get in his way. I don´t see him leaving unless the races ask him to and he accepts there wish.   Red all you have to do is go forward 50 60 years and shep will be gone But it might be a prequel.

[Nuclear]

Nah, blue would actually be easier from a story perspective. Red leaves Shepard coughing up blood on a pile of rubble, so you have to put your sequel far enough down the timestream for Shep to die of old age, 'cause if you survive that ain't nothin' gonna kill you 'til you clock out. Blue, you can just say that after fixing a few things (like relays) and warning the races of the galaxy to eat their vegetables, Cyber Shepard and the Reapers vanished into the darkness between the stars, never to be seen again, like Arthur sodding off to Avalon until the UK wins the World Cup.

I disagree, I believe Red would be easier. From a story perspective you would want it to occur in a time when Shepard is not around, since this is not Shepard's story and Shepard's continued existence may be overshadowing in the game. Having it perhaps a century later would do the trick.