22 réponses à ce sujet

[Bogdanov89]

I read the NWNwiki and similar sources but a lot of stuff i still do not understand about Monks.

I got a couple of questions about the monk class in NWN:

 

1. I see some Monks use Kamas while other Monks use fists (unarmed?) - what is the benefit and draw-back of each of those play-styles?

 

2. I know that regular melee weapons (including Kamas) can pierce enemy damage reductions (and all those other protections) by having weapon enhancements (+1 and bigger) - but how does that work for the unarmed (fist) monk?

Is the unarmed fist monk horrible against opponents with a lot of physical reduction/resistance (and all that other stuff)?

 

3. Aside from increasing the monk's AC and Reflexes, what else does Dexterity do for the monk class?

As far as i know both the Attack Roll and the Damage Roll is based on strength (without weapon finesse feat)... so, aside from AC, what else does Dexterity affect for the monk class?

 

4. I heard that some feats consider Kamas as the "unarmed/fist" weapon so that Kama monks also get the bonuses - but how many of those fist feats support Kamas and how many do not?

Will it be a big loss if i use Kamas and thus can not benefit from those "fist only" feats/passives?

 

5. I know how to make a simple melee-damage class such as the Weapon Master or the Barbarian - but i do not know how to make a monk class do amazing damage in melee?

What are the most important things for a monk melee damage, especially when fighting enemies that are well protected against damage?

 

6. Do monk fists (unarmed) benefit from having all those dual wielding feats like ambi-dexterity and improved-two-weapon-fighting?

Is there any 2handed (not dual wielding) weapon that a monk can use as well as fists/kamas?

 

7. What does Wisdom do for the monk class, aside from increasing the AC through that passive feat?

 

Thank you very much for reading and helping me out!

[Luminus]

1. Unarmed does better damage, especially if you go STR based. Kamas are the way to go for DEX-based Monks that dual-wield.
In high magic modules or servers, you will want to go with Kamas as you can enchant them with extra damage.

Also using Flurry of Blows with two kamas and Improved Two Weapon Fighting gives you many many attacks per round.
So if those are kamas are heavily enchanted, you do lots of damage per round.

Also, you can make a Dex based Monk/Assassin with dual kamas and you will be doing lots of sneak attacks and extra damage from enchantments.

But in modules/PWs that such strong enchantments are not easy to get, you want to go with unarmed since the damage automatically goes up with Monk levels.

2. The unarmed Monk automatically can pierce damage reduction with his fists as he levels up. Ki Strike +3 pre epic and +5 in epics.

3. You can use Weapon Finesse to hit with the DEX bonus. Move Silently and Hide are dependent on Dexterity. Initiative is also DEX based and it makes strike faster in the beginning of combat, than later. Also it increases Tumble and helps you qualify for the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
Also you become better at ranged combat.

4. I'm not sure of that one but I might have forgot after all that time. I think that Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm can be used with kamas but I'm not sure. In general, it seems like a bug in the game.

5. If you want pure damage and you're in a module/campaign/server that doesn't support super enchants like +8 5d6 damage ones, then making a pure STR-based Monk gives you the best damage.

So, at least 16 or higher in STR, 14 Dex, 14 Con, whatever INT (but you might want the skills so at least 10), 14 WIS and whatever CHA.
Get Weapon Focus (unarmed), Improved Critical (Unarmed) and you're good to go. Spam Improved Knockdown and punch them. Get STR items and Monk gloves and Robes and you don't need anything else.
The Monk is a simple class to play. Just charge and punch things.

6. Flurry of Blows works only with Unarmed and Kamas. You can use a Quarterstaff for a weapon but your fists will do much more damage in time. Only good in the beginning.

7. Wisdom increases his Will saves. His Spot and Listen skills. His Heal skill. As well the DC of his Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm. DC = Difficulty Check. As in how hard is to resist that spell/ability.

[Bogdanov89]

Thank you very much for the amazing answer!

 

Of course everyone else is also welcome to post their own opinions and suggestions ^^

 

Just one tiny question - if i am fighting with my Monk fists (unarmed), do i get benefit from feats like ambidexterity, two-weapon fighting and improved two-weapon fighting?

 

Thank you again!

[Empyre65]

Some research links for you:

The  NWN Wiki to read more about the Monk class and its feats.

The Epic Character Build Search Engine to find some good Monk builds.

The NWN Epic Character Builders' Guild (as well as right here) to ask questions about builds.

[Luminus]

Thank you very much for the amazing answer!

 

Of course everyone else is also welcome to post their own opinions and suggestions ^^

 

Just one tiny question - if i am fighting with my Monk fists (unarmed), do i get benefit from feats like ambidexterity, two-weapon fighting and improved two-weapon fighting?

 

Thank you again!

Unfortunately no. Though I think that you should. Even the official rules don't let you which doesn't make much sense to me.
If one can learn to fight with two weapons efficiently with Improved Two Weapon Fighting, you should be able to increase your attack since you're using four limbs.

Flurry of Blows gives you an extra attack for -2 penalty on attack bonus which is supposed to replace the Two-Weapon Fighting feats.
So go STR based, enable Flurry of Blows, use Improved Knockdown (you get it automatically) and punch stuff to death.

I would also stay a pure Monk. Some argue taking 4 Fighter levels for the extra attack, BAB increase and feats.
But as a pure Monk you'll have better saves, better Spell Resistance and feels less powergamey to me.

The key items for a Monk in my opinion are Gloves of the Hin Fist (sonic damage) and Robes of the Dark Moon (permanent haste), as well as a Periapt of Wisdom or Amulet of Natural Armor.
Also some Monk-only boots.

Pretty much the rest are details.

[WhiZard]

1.  Kamas can be dual-wielded, while fists cannot be.  Fists use gloves for their extra damage and for DR penetration (although the monk can penetrate some DR even without gloves).  Gloves are not as flexible as weapons with their item properties, but do cost less.  Using gloves however, means you are not using bracers for your normal armor bonus and protection (so kama using can make use of another item).

 

2. Gloves have an AB bonus.  This is what penetrates damage reduction.  Monks also get some free feats as they progress in levels, but the feats do not stack with the AB bonus on gloves, making the feats redundant.  In SoU and HotU gloves are almost reliably given a damage bonus in an element, rather than physical damage.  Also gloves in these modules are often available at AB levels higher than weapons found at the same point in the module.  Servers may follow this "balancing," especially if item level restriction is switched on, as item properties on gloves cost less than on weapons.

 

3.  Dexterity doesn't do that much for the class.  Technically monks have dexterity as their primarily ability, thus if a character whose first character level was in monk decided to polymorph into another form, then any standard spells granted to that form would use the dexterity modifier for DC, however, most of these standard spells are of little significance by the time you can get the polymorph form to cast them.  Dexterity does help other classes, like rogue and shadowdancer which can be used to take epic dodge and self concealment, but the monk cannot qualify for these on his own.

 

4. Only flurry of blows is the kama supported feat, though kamas do benefit from the monk unarmed progression.  The others (circle kick, stunning fist, and quivering palm) all require the monk to be unarmed.

 

5.  The monk is amazing in damage.  Even with one kama, his flurry of blow progression rivals the battleaxe due to the sheer number of attacks he can make per round.  Called shot is an amazing feat for the monk, because when he targets the arm, his large number of attacks work to his benefit at decreasing the AB of his attackers.

 

6. You cannot dual-wield fists.  However, the monk AB progression alone is better than the AB progression for dual-wielding by itself.  Kamas, of course, get the best of both worlds.

 

7.  Wisdom gives AC and determines the DC for stunning fist.  It is also used for druids/shifters in qualifying for advanced polymorphs.  These polymorphs will often use creature weapons, which is to the monks benefit.  When using creature weapons, you can penetrate DR up to the level of your own DR.  Thus a monk will often be penetrating +5 or higher DR, get extra attacks, a high AC, a high stunning fist DC, and have the potential for strength, dexterity or constitution (sometimes all three) to be largely increased.

[Luminus]

I think that Dexterity is fairly important. I wouldn't advise anything lower than 14. It can be increased with items but Monks get their AC from DEX, WIS and every 5 levels as well as points in Tumble.

That's something I forgot to mention. Every 5 Tumble skill points, you get 1 extra AC. But it doesn't count from items. It needs to be the one you raise on level ups.

Putting skill points in Tumble, getting DEX and WIS items, will give you excellent AC.
And Robes of the Dark Moon give you permanent Haste as I said, which means +4 AC, 1 extra attack and making you run even faster.

[MagicalMaster]

3.  Dexterity doesn't do that much for the class.  Technically monks have dexterity as their primarily ability, thus if a character whose first character level was in monk decided to polymorph into another form, then any standard spells granted to that form would use the dexterity modifier for DC, however, most of these standard spells are of little significance by the time you can get the polymorph form to cast them.  Dexterity does help other classes, like rogue and shadowdancer which can be used to take epic dodge and self concealment, but the monk cannot qualify for these on his own.

 

I would strongly disagree with this.  In many/most environments a monk is dependent on Dex to have their expected AC or else they're significantly behind in that department.  10 more damage per hit versus 10 more AC is vastly tilted in favor of the AV 99% of the time.

 

That said, it isn't impossible to have environments where AC is more or less irrelevant due to gear, healing available, or mob AB being absurdly low...but it matters in many cases and a strength monk will likely get wailed on rather hard.

[WhiZard]

I would strongly disagree with this.  In many/most environments a monk is dependent on Dex to have their expected AC or else they're significantly behind in that department.  10 more damage per hit versus 10 more AC is vastly tilted in favor of the AV 99% of the time.

 

That said, it isn't impossible to have environments where AC is more or less irrelevant due to gear, healing available, or mob AB being absurdly low...but it matters in many cases and a strength monk will likely get wailed on rather hard.

 

 

Without uncanny dodge, monks really have no advantage in the dexterity department over other classes.  It doesn't need to be that many levels of multiclassing, but monk by itself doesn't offer anything enticing for the dexterity.  You could just as easily make a wisdom build with zen archery and keep the AC benefits without having to worry about becoming flatfooted.  Throw in some druid and shifter, and you have a melee presence as well.  Monks have more options than simply strength or dexterity.

 

Remember also the OP said "aside from AC."

[Elhanan]

Know little about this class from experience; rarely played one. However, I do recommend skipping Circle Kick for Cleave or something else, as this feat causes the Monk to possibly re-direct attacks on other targets which can create some problems, esp when pause functionality is not available.

 

And m/c is helpful in shoring weaknesses and adding even more versatility.

[Bogdanov89]

Thank you all for replying!

 

I got a tiny off-question if you fellas can answer me:

 

Rogue's sneak attack rises by an additional +1d6 every TWO levels after the first rogue level.

 

But, as far as i can read nwnwiki, the blackguard's sneak attack is a lot weaker than rogue's - since your sneak attack only gains +1d6 every THREE levels as blackguard??

 

Also, how does the Assasssin's death attack (their version of sneak attacK) scale when leveling?

Is it +1d6 every TWO levels or every THREE levels for the Assassins?

 

Thank you again ^^

[Shadooow]

However, I do recommend skipping Circle Kick for Cleave or something else, as this feat causes the Monk to possibly re-direct attacks on other targets which can create some problems, esp when pause functionality is not available.

True by default, however if you have my unofficial patch (and I think you have) and you also using NWNCX, then the circle kick is one of the best options because it adds you one more attack per round anytime you are surrounded by more than 1 enemy.

 

(btw cleave is monks free feat but I know how you meant it)

[Elhanan]

No; meant Great Cleave, and do not have the patch, but I do appreciate the clarification for the OP.

[Gruftlord]

sneak increases every two levels for assassins. Blackguards have higher BAB than rogue and Assassin, so lower sneak attack is fine by me.

 

btw: all this is indeed information available on NWN wiki, which you state you visited. be sure to check the hyperlinks for more indebth information about feats and other such things. just search for a class, and once you are on that site, any aspect that might be interesting, but is a bit too complext to be explained on the class site itself will by linked within the text.

[HipMaestro]

[The following pertains to benefits of the PURE class only.  Multiclassing is a whole other discussion IMO.]

 

I also disagree with a monk's lack of need for DEX, especially vs. high-level casters.  Often times, their capacity to win stealth checks can make a difference between "a" chance and "no" chance in PvP.  What makes them an especially effective sneaker is not the sneak attacks like a rogue/assy has, but monk speed (and stacking with haste) to close on a target quicker than any other PURE class.  Though super speed can have it's price.  A monk can miss locating traps a lot even with high INT levels and high investment in Search because it can miss the OnHeartbeat check until well into the trap field.

 

And that (re: ability focus) is usually the base decision when you design your monk.  STR-based for high AB & damage, DEX-based for high AC/high AB & stealth or WIS-based for high unconditional AC and elevated stunning fist DC.  Once you decide which way to go, it will make the fists vs. kamas debate a bit easier to resolve.  Oft times, especially on high-magic servers, the item props available on gloves vs. kamas can also influence what is finally settled.  I do like the point of gloves taking up the gauntlet slot, though.  It can prevent other item props from being incorporated into the combat effectiveness.  But there is always some trade-off.

 

I've always liked the versatility of monk damage types, one intrinsic as bludgeoning fists and the kama's slashing which is also nice with a party member who can keen them for you.  The only downside of kamas IMO is the lame crit range but the progression and APR feats seem to more than compensate for it. 

 

Apologies if I wandered off the OP's original questions.  It's a curse.

 

 

[MagicalMaster]

Without uncanny dodge, monks really have no advantage in the dexterity department over other classes.

 

Except unlike other classes monks cannot go strength and wear heavy armor to compensate for the lack of dex AC.  I don't see why you're fixated on uncanny dodge, you shouldn't be flat footed anyway.

 

In other words, monks are even more reliant on dex than a rogue is because a full plate rogue gone strength will have better AC.

 

So monks depend on Dex for AB, AC, Reflex saves, and potentially Stealth.  Going Str as a monk is a dangerous choice and very environment dependent.

 

But, as far as i can read nwnwiki, the blackguard's sneak attack is a lot weaker than rogue's - since your sneak attack only gains +1d6 every THREE levels as blackguard??

 

Also, how does the Assasssin's death attack (their version of sneak attacK) scale when leveling?

Is it +1d6 every TWO levels or every THREE levels for the Assassins?

 

Blackguards only gain 1d6 sneak per 3 levels but they also gain more AB, meaning their sneak attacks are more likely to actually HIT.

 

A level 18 rogue has 13 BAB and 9d6 sneak attack.  A level 8 rogue/10 blackguard has 16 BAB and 7d6 sneak attack.

 

Assassins get death attack every 2 levels just like a rogue.

[Luminus]

A Monk shouldn't care for traps. They get Evasion at level 1 and Improved Evasion at level 9. They also get high Reflex saves and have Spell Resistance, as well as Immunity to Poison and Diseases.

For the OCs, I would recommend going STR based. You get a crap-ton of magic items and it's better to hit hard with each fist than going too defensive.  The Monk already is quite defensive.

For servers, I would go DEX-based and get a Shadowdancer level probably to get Hide in Plain Sight.

Don't forget, Grimgnaw was STR based and was destroying everything left and right with no problems. Imagine a better equipped Player Character.

I played a Monk in the NwN1 OC and went mostly STR based and I had no issues. I was playing on Hardcore/Very Difficult with Tony K's AI too.

Also going WIS-based in vanilla NwN1 is absolutely garbage. You won't be able to hit anything. But if you made an archer with Zen Archery, that's another story.

[MagicalMaster]

Don't forget, Grimgnaw was STR based and was destroying everything left and right with no problems. Imagine a better equipped Player Character.

 

Which is only because the OC is insanely undertuned.  So like I said, very environment dependent.

[Elhanan]

I did play a Monk/ Rogue for one mod series, for the Skills and versatility. This allowed Search as a class skill among others, which can be helpful in many environments. And it can be nice to be able to re-arm devices that cannot be shrugged away by Evasion and high ST's; an observation made when I kinda killed a Monk with traps on our campaign server (part of a quest; long story).

[WhiZard]

I also disagree with a monk's lack of need for DEX.

 

I don't get what and who people are disagreeing with.

 

The following is the exact indexed question which I was answering

 

3. Aside from increasing the monk's AC and Reflexes, what else does Dexterity do for the monk class?

As far as i know both the Attack Roll and the Damage Roll is based on strength (without weapon finesse feat)... so, aside from AC, what else does Dexterity affect for the monk class?

 

In other words the OP is looking to see if there is some special feature with dexterity that a monk has that would not be part of the generic strength versus dexterity comparison.  I know he only mentioned AC and reflex, versus strength and damage and not other features like stealth that might also be part of a generic strength versus dexterity comparison, but for a monk there is no armor check penalty, making the point rather moot.

 

 

Except unlike other classes monks cannot go strength and wear heavy armor to compensate for the lack of dex AC.  I don't see why you're fixated on uncanny dodge, you shouldn't be flat footed anyway.

 

In other words, monks are even more reliant on dex than a rogue is because a full plate rogue gone strength will have better AC.

 

So monks depend on Dex for AB, AC, Reflex saves, and potentially Stealth.  Going Str as a monk is a dangerous choice and very environment dependent.

 

Yet the very things that the OP asked for me not to address in answering his question I am being accused of unfairly ignoring.  And full plate is not an issue (though a shield would be) because a monk with 14 dex, 14 Wis, and 20 levels can easily outdo the full plate base plus max dexterity.  Full plate by itself is not a reason why even a strength based  monk would lag behind AC-wise.  Even so, you are just arguing how strength lags, not how dexterity gives further benefits to the monk class than the normal conditions.

 

Why did the OP ask the question if he is ruling out the major benefits? Might be because he saw that dexterity was a monk's primary ability from a wiki article. Maybe he wanted a dexterity versus wisdom rationale. My reply adequately showed that there are no special considerations that give monks significantly more power than when giving dexterity to another class.  So far all I am seeing for responses to my post are people taking the post out of context so that they can argue with it.  If you are going to do that why not argue with the points that are wrong from the previous post, such as "I think that Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm can be used with kamas but I'm not sure".  Easy to say no to that.  I bring up that dexterity doesn't give much innately to the monk class once the usual strength versus dexterity reasons are dismissed, and I am accused of dismissing the benefits of AC in a reply where AC is specifically stated not to be considered.  Good luck arguing for argument's sake.

[Bogdanov89]

All amazing replies, thank you very much ^^

 

Just to point out as the OP, yes i am aware that the "cloth wearing" monks rely heavily on AC and that Dex (and Wis) can significantly help increase the AC.

 

I just wanted to see was there some absolutely crucial benefit to Dexterity for Monks (aside from AC and obvious Dex-based skills).

 

Of course even more replies are always welcome, but no need to argue over semantics - i do understand that a monk should not have 6 Dexterity xD

[Luminus]

Also with 14 Dex, Dodge, Mobility and the required skills, you can get 1 Shadowdancer level to be able to escape if you need to.

I once played Hordes of the Underdark solo with a STR based Monk/Assassin with a Katana and alternate "assassin stance" combat animations.

Totally a fun build based on Tatsumaru from Tenchu 2 but he kicked ass and still very very effective. He had no trouble taking down anything even when soloing.

[MagicalMaster]

I just wanted to see was there some absolutely crucial benefit to Dexterity for Monks (aside from AC and obvious Dex-based skills).

 

They get AB as well with Weapon Finesse.  So both AB and AC while Str monks get AB and damage.  Most of the time the AC is far more valuable than the damage.