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Are you at peace with ME3?


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#401
AlanC9

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The level of destruction doesn't matter, because frankly, I don't want to visit the setting anymore based on these outcomes. I'm not massively, willing to crush anyone and everyone beneath my boot in the name of the "greater good"

Wait... I thought we were talking about Shepard's decision, not your level of emotional distress. What does whether or not you want to visit the setting anymore have to do with Shepard's decision? Remember, we got here because you said "you see any choice as failure anyway" with respect to Refuse. Did you mean that the "you" there was iakus rather than Shepard, and you're considering making Shepard destroy the galaxy because you feel bad about the choices? If so, we're talking past each other in the thread.

And if you think I'm being irrational, you can always ignore my posts.

Sure, but this is more fun.
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#402
dreamgazer

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I do wonder how Control works with Shepard somehow being physically absorbed into the Citadel system. 

 

Something like this.



#403
MassivelyEffective0730

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Along with how his body is somehow disintegrated. I still find that part unbelievable. 

 

But then again, that's an executional flaw with the whole things, not necessarily a categorical one.


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#404
ImaginaryMatter

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What were your questions, and did you ever find answers?

I'm with KaiserShep here. Underwhelmed I get, confusion... not so much.

 

I find it confusing in the same way the Star Wars prequels are confusing. For example, you're watching it and you think, "Hmm, how exactly is this galactic senate structured? What's with Qui-Qon's decision making?" Same thing with the Catalyst conversation.



#405
Humakt83

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Along with how his body is somehow disintegrated. I still find that part unbelievable.

You do now? What if breath scene occurred after every "victory" vision aka ending? Would you still believe the endings real?

What are the chances that Shepard's body wouldn't simply disintegrate if the destroy endings were real? I believe Nyreen demonstrated that for us.

#406
Gkonone

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I am at peace now mostly, although I still believe the ending and the extended cut are horrible and will stay that way, like polishing a turd, it's still a turd. The Mehem mod did fix most of my concerns now.



#407
Iakus

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Wait... I thought we were talking about Shepard's decision, not your level of emotional distress. What does whether or not you want to visit the setting anymore have to do with Shepard's decision? Remember, we got here because you said "you see any choice as failure anyway" with respect to Refuse. Did you mean that the "you" there was iakus rather than Shepard, and you're considering making Shepard destroy the galaxy because you feel bad about the choices? If so, we're talking past each other in the thread.
 

 

Because I despise what the game forces Shepard, and thus me, to do.  The world-states at the end of the game fill me with disgust, and that is a direct result of Shepard's decision.  To me, these states leave the galaxy so broken that burning it down strikes me as as good an option as any.  All of these options feel like the "bad endings", outcomes you get because you didn't go in properly prepared, or otherwise frakked up along the way.  

 

Red: It Would be Rude to Say "Genocide"

Blue: The Evils of Free Will

Green" Utopia Justifies the Means

 

Given these choices, might as well kick back and have a front row seat to Armageddon.  

 

As I've said before, if this was a real life situation, yeah, I'd probably shoot the tube.  But I'd really hope the blast killed me.  After what I'd just done, I'd deserve it.  A game, a form of entertainment, should not invoke these kinds of feelings in a "good outcome"

 

And this is, of course, aside from the logical and narrative problems the endings cause.  See Sanderson's   Three   Laws   for that.



#408
MassivelyEffective0730

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You do now? What if breath scene occurred after every "victory" vision aka ending? Would you still believe the endings real?

What are the chances that Shepard's body wouldn't simply disintegrate if the destroy endings were real? I believe Nyreen demonstrated that for us.

 

Is this somebody's alt who likes to go around and hit people with the ******* stick? I've been seeing you going around doing that lately.



#409
MassivelyEffective0730

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Because I despise what the game forces Shepard, and thus me, to do.  The world-states at the end of the game fill me with disgust, and that is a direct result of Shepard's decision.  To me, these states leave the galaxy so broken that burning it down strikes me as as good an option as any.  All of these options feel like the "bad endings", outcomes you get because you didn't go in properly prepared, or otherwise frakked up along the way.  

 

Red: It Would be Rude to Say "Genocide"

Blue: The Evils of Free Will

Green" Utopia Justifies the Means

 

Given these choices, might as well kick back and have a front row seat to Armageddon.  

 

As I've said before, if this was a real life situation, yeah, I'd probably shoot the tube.  But I'd really hope the blast killed me.  After what I'd just done, I'd deserve it.  A game, a form of entertainment, should not invoke these kinds of feelings in a "good outcome"

 

Are you so craven?

 

Seriously your disgust is badly misguided at best and outright terrifyingly foolish at worst.

 

It's beyond your control. Anything that happens is not the consequence of your own actions but that of the group that put it upon you. There's no need to feel any guilt.

 

And guilt is a weakness anyway.


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#410
Humakt83

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Is this somebody's alt who likes to go around and hit people with the ******* stick? I've been seeing you going around doing that lately.

Right......

No, I'm not someone's alt. That should be obvious from my join date. And my questions were genuine, not attempts to troll or flame if that is what you are insinuating.

#411
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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Normally, I'd agree with lakus on ending stuff, but destroy shouldn't make you feel guilty. It was the only option at hand, really. 

Nobody in the whole galaxy would want control, and synthesis would cause a whole lot of controversy and some cases of mass suicide. Refuse is just stupid. 

I don't feel guilty at the endings, not like killing Mr. House in NV, but they are still stupid, incoherent pieces of narrative garbage. 



#412
MassivelyEffective0730

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Right......

No, I'm not someone's alt. That should be obvious from my join date. And my questions were genuine, not attempsts to troll or flame if that is what you are insinuating.

 

Well I don't care enough to go check a join date (or care enough to think you're awesome because you're account is old).

 

Seems more like you're trying to be aggressive then. Seeing your grammar though, before I say anything further, is English your native language?



#413
Iakus

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Normally, I'd agree with lakus on ending stuff, but destroy shouldn't make you feel guilty. It was the only option at hand, really. 

Nobody in the whole galaxy would want control, and synthesis would cause a whole lot of controversy and some cases of mass suicide. Refuse is just stupid. 

I don't feel guilty at the endings, not like killing Mr. House in NV, but they are still stupid, incoherent pieces of narrative garbage. 

Given the least bad option is Shepard annihilating  an entire form of life, I reserve the right to feel bad about it 



#414
MassivelyEffective0730

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Given the least bad option is Shepard annihilating  an entire form of life, I reserve the right to feel bad about it 

 

I shall probably fail, but I'm going to attempt a Socratic argument to show you why your feelings are irrational.

 

Why do you feel bad about it?


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#415
Humakt83

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Well I don't care enough to go check a join date (or care enough to think you're awesome because you're account is old).
 
Seems more like you're trying to be aggressive then. Seeing your grammar though, before I say anything further, is English your native language?


It is not, but feel free to go ahead and correct my grammar. I trust "you're account" was misspelled, right? Errore humanum est.

My initial questions are aggressive only if trying to make person question his or her interpretation of the game's ending is viewed as aggressive. In which case, we can stop here, because I doubt anything fruitful would come out of this.

#416
AlanC9

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Because I despise what the game forces Shepard, and thus me, to do.  The world-states at the end of the game fill me with disgust, and that is a direct result of Shepard's decision.  To me, these states leave the galaxy so broken that burning it down strikes me as as good an option as any.

As I've said before, if this was a real life situation, yeah, I'd probably shoot the tube.


OK. Then we really have been talking about different things. It happens a lot with this kind of topic. There's an ambiguity in the way we talk about RPGs. "I" can mean either the player or the character, which causes confusion when the two aren't thinking alike.

But I'd really hope the blast killed me.  After what I'd just done, I'd deserve it.  A game, a form of entertainment, should not invoke these kinds of feelings in a "good outcome"



Why not? Why shouldn't a game put us face-to-face with the fundamental amorality of the universe; the indifference of heaven, as the song says. Other media can do this, so why not games? You'd have a better case if you were arguing that ME shouldn't have been that kind of game.

#417
Iakus

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I shall probably fail, but I'm going to attempt a Socratic argument to show you why your feelings are irrational.

 

Why do you feel bad about it?

Because I am betraying allies.  They pledged themselves to my cause when they were under no obligation to.  Sure they could die facing the Reapers, but that is death at the hands of the enemy.  That's the threat everyone faces.  

 

Shepard choosing to shoot the tube, however, is Shepard deliberately choosing to destroy all synthetic life.  This isn't sending them into a fight where they are likely to die.  This isn't an omission of action.  This is actively choosing to kill your allies.  And not giving them a say in the matter.

 

People sometimes compare the choice to Virmire, but there are several major differences:

 

1) Scale.  Virmire involves saving a single human life, and perhaps a small number of salarians.  Wile the choice there sucks (or doesn't, if you don't care about those involved) it pales in comparison to the scope of an entire form of life.  Not even a single species, but all species of a given type.  

 

2) Choice.  In the case of Virmire, both characters know the score, and are okay with laying down their life for the cause.  In the case of Destroy, nobody knows the effect shooting the tube will trigger.  While people might be willing to lay down their lives for a cause if asked, killing them with a bolt from the blue (or red in this case) without even letting them know why they are being killed strikes me as very cold.

 

3) Acceptance of responsibility:  Virmire allows Shepard to apologize to the one being left behind or even claim to try to rescue both (which isn't really believed) and afterwards, has the chance to own up to the character's death afterwards.  Frankly, I find joyous celebration after so many of your own allies have been annihilated to be quite the disturbing image.  Perhaps understandable, given they were facing destruction just beforehand, but from my pov, it leaves me cold.  Especially with the epilogue where the geth are essentially unpersoned.

 

Yeah, I know no ending should be perfect, acceptable losses, and whatever.  But you know what?  Those who die so you can live ought to be remembered and honored.  I don't see that at the end of ME3.  Nobody cares that a powerful ally fell saving Earth, even the whole galaxy.  Edi gets her name on the memorial wall, whoopie!  I fine remembrance for someone who had Shepard's back for two whole games.  Loghain in DAO gets greater recognition.  

 

But hey, at least he gets to volunteer to be archdemon bait.


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#418
Iakus

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OK. Then we really have been talking about different things. It happens a lot with this kind of topic. There's an ambiguity in the way we talk about RPGs. "I" can mean either the player or the character, which causes confusion when the two aren't thinking alike.
 

*shrug*  I am willing to let my characters work within a set of choices.  But I have never been able to really do evil, or amoral.  Which is why "choose your atrocity" really frosts me.

 

Seriously I've done all the DAO endings, including Ultimate Sacrifice, and saw merit in all of them.  But nothing with ME3's choices.

 

 

 

Why not? Why shouldn't a game put us face-to-face with the fundamental amorality of the universe; the indifference of heaven, as the song says. Other media can do this, so why not games? You'd have a better case if you were arguing that ME shouldn't have been that kind of game.

 

Given ME1 and ME2 weren't that kind of game, why should ME3 have been?  It just seems that Bioware has been taking all the wrong lessons from people crying that their games should be more like The Witcher.

 

In addition, it's a bit of a paradox to claim "Your choices matter!  Shape the story!  This is your Shepard!" And then wrap it up with "And in the end, the universe doesn't care who you are or what you did"


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#419
q5tyhj

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Lol, since when does Brandon Sanderson get to come up with "laws"?  :lol:



#420
MassivelyEffective0730

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Because I am betraying allies.  They pledged themselves to my cause when they were under no obligation to.  Sure they could die facing the Reapers, but that is death at the hands of the enemy.  That's the threat everyone faces.  

 

Shepard choosing to shoot the tube, however, is Shepard deliberately choosing to destroy all synthetic life.  This isn't sending them into a fight where they are likely to die.  This isn't an omission of action.  This is actively choosing to kill your allies.  And not giving them a say in the matter.

 

People sometimes compare the choice to Virmire, but there are several major differences:

 

1) Scale.  Virmire involves saving a single human life, and perhaps a small number of salarians.  Wile the choice there sucks (or doesn't, if you don't care about those involved) it pales in comparison to the scope of an entire form of life.  Not even a single species, but all species of a given type.  

 

2) Choice.  In the case of Virmire, both characters know the score, and are okay with laying down their life for the cause.  In the case of Destroy, nobody knows the effect shooting the tube will trigger.  While people might be willing to lay down their lives for a cause if asked, killing them with a bolt from the blue (or red in this case) without even letting them know why they are being killed strikes me as very cold.

 

3) Acceptance of responsibility:  Virmire allows Shepard to apologize to the one being left behind or even claim to try to rescue both (which isn't really believed) and afterwards, has the chance to own up to the character's death afterwards.  Frankly, I find joyous celebration after so many of your own allies have been annihilated to be quite the disturbing image.  Perhaps understandable, given they were facing destruction just beforehand, but from my pov, it leaves me cold.  Especially with the epilogue where the geth are essentially unpersoned.

 

Yeah, I know no ending should be perfect, acceptable losses, and whatever.  But you know what?  Those who die so you can live ought to be remembered and honored.  I don't see that at the end of ME3.  Nobody cares that a powerful ally fell saving Earth, even the whole galaxy.  Edi gets her name on the memorial wall, whoopie!  I fine remembrance for someone who had Shepard's back for two whole games.  Loghain in DAO gets greater recognition.  

 

But hey, at least he gets to volunteer to be archdemon bait.

 

You aren't 'betraying' your allies. You're sacrificing them for the cause. You have to sacrifice people for the greater good sometimes. If anything, there deaths should make the choice more meaningful, giving you full reign over what you're buying with their deaths. You aren't wasting them. You're spending them. That's something you should learn, instead of complaining about emotional distress at having to make a hard decision that weighs on your conscious. That's what leaders do. That's what all Soldiers do. If you can't understand that, then it means you're too weak to stand for something, to truly stand for it. You have to be willing to sacrifice what you love for the sake of what you both fight for.

 

It's not actively choosing to end synthetics, it's choosing to end the Reapers and acknowledging that the loss of synthetics is a necessary consequence for that goal. They don't need a say. Freewill is a bane as much as it is a boon. Do you really think I'd warn my allies I was sending them to their deaths if it meant buying me an advantage to win the war? Once more, it's not heroism or honor or goodness that motivates you. It's cowardice. You are a coward. You deserve no say over your fate, and no say or right to question the actions of others. 

 

Scale is hardly of consequence here. You can temporarily end that entire domain of life, or you can accept the entire end of most forms of advanced sapient life. As I said, it's cowardice. 

 

Emotional distress on your part. You do what you have to do, or you die. Frankly, according to your decisions, you deserve to fail miserably because you choose to hold onto some misplaced ideal of honor and compassion that will only end in even more suffering. So yeah, you're also a sadistic and evil wretch as well as a coward for choosing to bring suffering, misery, and terror all so you can feel ok with yourself because 'at least I didn't do anything mean to win and survive'.

 

Responsibility? Whose responsibility? This goes hand in hand with the last one. You don't need to apologize to people for sending them to death, even when they can live. Christ, you're as bad with David with the whole 'heroism' stick. Yes, there'd be joyous celebration, because they live. Because they get to continue and go on. You know the worst way to honor someone? To sit around and mope about it and how sad and disgusted you are. Instead of doing that, why don't you try honoring their memory by living life to the fullest and making their sacrifice meaningful? Why don't you enjoy the life you saved instead of mourning the life you killed? That makes you come across as pathetically narcissistic and self-centered. So you're a sadistic, self-centered coward. That's my summation right there of you and your emotional distress and 'bad feelings'.

 

You're certainly not honoring any body by complaining about how they're dead. So you're a hypocrite too. Instead of enjoying the life (the best possible honor to their memory), you choose to insult it by moping and whining about it.

 

That's just sad, and infinitely more evil than anything you complain about. You should strike that quote from your signature. You don't deserve to be called a hero. You're the worst villain of them all; the one who perpetuates evil in the name of false virtue.

 

As I said:

 

Are you so craven? 


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#421
von uber

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Well if you look at it one way, the Geth doomed themselves by accepting the poisoned chalice of Reaper tech to change their fundamental nature of existence.
If they had stuck as they were originally existing (and perfectly happy as before me3 hit them like a rewriting sledgehammer) then it would only be EDI on the scrapheap.

#422
KaiserShep

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Because I am betraying allies.  They pledged themselves to my cause when they were under no obligation to.  Sure they could die facing the Reapers, but that is death at the hands of the enemy.  That's the threat everyone faces.  

 

Shepard choosing to shoot the tube, however, is Shepard deliberately choosing to destroy all synthetic life.  This isn't sending them into a fight where they are likely to die.  This isn't an omission of action.  This is actively choosing to kill your allies.  And not giving them a say in the matter.

 

This is only really true if it was possible to choose between killing the reapers alone and killing the reapers plus all other synthetic life. That the ally's fate is tied to the fate of the enemy does not make the option to kill the enemy a betrayal. 


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#423
Iakus

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Well if you look at it one way, the Geth doomed themselves by accepting the poisoned chalice of Reaper tech to change their fundamental nature of existence.
If they had stuck as they were originally existing (and perfectly happy as before me3 hit them like a rewriting sledgehammer) then it would only be EDI on the scrapheap.

 

I do not buy that the geth uploading Reaper code is the reason for their destruction.  The Catalyst specifically says "all synthetic life will be targeted"  That would include the geth (upgraded or not) any shackled AI in use, the virtual aliens, even any beings from beyond the borders of explored space.

 

Reaper code is foolish for entirely different reasons



#424
Iakus

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You aren't 'betraying' your allies. You're sacrificing them for the cause. You have to sacrifice people for the greater good sometimes. If anything, there deaths should make the choice more meaningful, giving you full reign over what you're buying with their deaths. You aren't wasting them. You're spending them. That's something you should learn, instead of complaining about emotional distress at having to make a hard decision that weighs on your conscious. That's what leaders do. That's what all Soldiers do. If you can't understand that, then it means you're too weak to stand for something, to truly stand for it. You have to be willing to sacrifice what you love for the sake of what you both fight for.

 

It's not actively choosing to end synthetics, it's choosing to end the Reapers and acknowledging that the loss of synthetics is a necessary consequence for that goal. They don't need a say. Freewill is a bane as much as it is a boon. Do you really think I'd warn my allies I was sending them to their deaths if it meant buying me an advantage to win the war? Once more, it's not heroism or honor or goodness that motivates you. It's cowardice. You are a coward. You deserve no say over your fate, and no say or right to question the actions of others. 

 

Scale is hardly of consequence here. You can temporarily end that entire domain of life, or you can accept the entire end of most forms of advanced sapient life. As I said, it's cowardice. 

 

Emotional distress on your part. You do what you have to do, or you die. Frankly, according to your decisions, you deserve to fail miserably because you choose to hold onto some misplaced ideal of honor and compassion that will only end in even more suffering. So yeah, you're also a sadistic and evil wretch as well as a coward for choosing to bring suffering, misery, and terror all so you can feel ok with yourself because 'at least I didn't do anything mean to win and survive'.

 

Responsibility? Whose responsibility? This goes hand in hand with the last one. You don't need to apologize to people for sending them to death, even when they can live. Christ, you're as bad with David with the whole 'heroism' stick. Yes, there'd be joyous celebration, because they live. Because they get to continue and go on. You know the worst way to honor someone? To sit around and mope about it and how sad and disgusted you are. Instead of doing that, why don't you try honoring their memory by living life to the fullest and making their sacrifice meaningful? Why don't you enjoy the life you saved instead of mourning the life you killed? That makes you come across as pathetically narcissistic and self-centered. So you're a sadistic, self-centered coward. That's my summation right there of you and your emotional distress and 'bad feelings'.

 

You're certainly not honoring any body by complaining about how they're dead. So you're a hypocrite too. Instead of enjoying the life (the best possible honor to their memory), you choose to insult it by moping and whining about it.

 

That's just sad, and infinitely more evil than anything you complain about. You should strike that quote from your signature. You don't deserve to be called a hero. You're the worst villain of them all; the one who perpetuates evil in the name of false virtue.

 

As I said:

 

Are you so craven? 

And that sacrifice isn't acknowledged once in the original or EC.  They are unpersoned.  No one acknowledges their death, no one cares.

 

And yes, they deserve a say.  Or at least a warning that the end was nigh.  Give Joker and EDI a chance to say goodbye.  If they are truly your allies, they will understand.  

 

I find all too often "do what you have to do" is an excuse to act in a sociopathic manner.  "What you have to do" should only be done at the utmost end of need, and then only with great regret.  It's not something to revel in, or celebrate.  It's a necessity, and should be reflected on as such.  That's why I say if it were a real situation, I'd shoot the tube and hope to die alongside the geth.  This isn't a victory to be proud of.  It's an act of absolute necessity, not entertainment.

 

And if you're going to have a debate with me in the future, I'll thank you to not stoop to personal attacks.



#425
Iakus

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Lol, since when does Brandon Sanderson get to come up with "laws"?  :lol:

Since he can write magic systems that are more consistent and make more sense than Mass Effect's "science fiction"