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[dreamgazer]

There is no space magic in ME1. Space magic is a machine that paints the galaxy red, green or blue, with a beam of light.

Wait, color is important? Ohhhh.




 
And yup, the ability to touch a mind and cram it full of the collective unconscious of the Protheans is absolutely space magic, along with everything else we've discussed. You're simply choosing to not see it as such.
 

The Cipher is just the ability to understand the Prothean warning in the beacon. I'm sorry, but I have never heard anyone complaining about the Cipher before. It establishes nothing except that Protheans were very alien in relation to humans, asari, turians etc.

Do you know about its transference, or creation, or what having the "collective unconscious of the Protheans" implies? The cipher's knowledge could, probably should, have delivered better info than "Ilos" too, after all.
 

Space Casper allows you to win. Congrats, hero, you just saved the galaxy. With a Reaper off button. Talking to a ghost child. Yaaaaay... So much resolution, so much gratification...

Yes, you completed the plot after an artificial intelligence told you where to go and what to do with a vague, time-sensitive prototype Prothean device that could have feasibly done anything. Where have I heard that before?


 

As for the Crucible, it's supposed to have been built by a collaboration of completely different races over millions of years, it has three radically different functions, possibly with horrifying consequences that can be unleashed by an unspecified person in an unknown time and at the same time "is little more than a power source". It is effectively a Reaper off button. It's asinine.

ReaperSaren and Vigil's DEM datafile were Sovereign's "off button".

And yes, desperate times call for desperate measures, which includes placing faith in the Protheans' technology ... which is far from an alien concept in the MEU. There's a reason why they ultimately decided to trust the device, after all.
 

The things you call magical hand-wavey stuff don't affect matters on that scale. Like I said before, in ME1 and 2 suspension of disbelief is sustained. In Trainwreck, it is broken. It's as simple as that. Not just with the Crucible, but with many plot elements. Not just with plot elements, but with a combination of terrible plot, pacing, tone, structure, execution and theme elements.

 
Heh. The cipher, Benezia's "reawakening" from indoctrination, and the Mako's tumble onto the Citadel can be plenty immersion-breaking in the right eyes, and let's not get started with Shepard's asinine railroaded decisions that get him spaced and magically resurrected in the first half-hour of ME2. "Ah yes, Reapers" was the nail in that coffin, along with the forced Collector ship ambush and that Normandy evacuation. And I'll avoid Cerberus cooperation here, though it should also apply.

It's not "as simple as that", whatsoever.
 

The conflict which has ultimately ended in peace?

The conflict that ultimately ended in an optional, tentative truce during wartime, you mean? Enemy of my enemy, after all, and that's after billions died in the Morning War and its cascade of events. It's proof positive of the Catalyst's assertion, and far less evidence against it.
 

Let's see. Citadel comes under attack from Sovereign and the geth. Destiny Ascension and the Citadel fleet defends Citadel. Ascension is the most powerful unit in Citadel fleet. Therefore, geth ships attack it vigorously. Ascension is in trouble. Alliance fleet shows up. They either save the Ascension or bypass it to focus on Sovereign.
 
Yeah. I can totally see how that's forced, because there's no way that the Council would have been evacuated to what was considered the safest ship in the neighbourhood when the Presidium was being shot up. And there's no way that enemy forces would focus on that big, important, dangerous ship. What a load of nonsense!

The writing could have easily had it maneuver away from the assault once/if the situation got too hairy, let alone better handle the situation where the vessel containing the council was entirely too aggressive (and probably shouldn't even be present in this battle at all). But no, the ending needed "teh dramaz" with a gun pointed to their head, forced sacrifice and the "choose between humans and aliens" theme.
 

Does this thread recquire more derailment or is it the rend rof rine?

I'm fine with seeing it play out, actually.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The stuff in ME2 that involved the Reapers, Cerberus, the Collectors, the Suicide Mission, you know the actual plot of the game, was idiotic. The game was able to successfully distract people from that by focusing instead on episodic character pieces (albeit at the cost of not really advancing anything of consequence), waifuism, and having an "epic" adrenaline pumping ending (that also screwed over development of the next game).

 

Of course ME3 being the final entry in the trilogy didn't have that luxury and had to focus on the main issues of the series and effectively crammed two games worth of story into one after ME2's failure to achieve much of anything at all.

 

That's why I like ME2 so much despite having a dumb story, all that side stuff is actually pretty interesting. Which makes me wonder what happened with the central conflict, I can't think of another story where so much good is crammed next to so much bad. Luckily, it only takes up like 14% of the game.

[dreamgazer]

The stuff in ME2 that involved the Reapers, Cerberus, the Collectors, the Suicide Mission, you know the actual plot of the game, was idiotic. The game was able to successfully distract people from that by focusing instead on episodic character pieces (albeit at the cost of not really advancing anything of consequence), waifuism, and having an "epic" adrenaline pumping ending (that also screwed over development of the next game).
 
Of course ME3 being the final entry in the trilogy didn't have that luxury and had to focus on the main issues of the series and effectively crammed two games worth of story into one after ME2's failure to achieve much of anything at all.

Absolutely.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

As has been said before:

 

Verisimilitude.

 

That is all.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Absolutely.

 

Not.

 

The only absolute here is that our views are subjective, as is our interpretation of explanations. Depending on your verisimilitude meter, it works for you, or it doesn't.

 

Otherwise, I'd just point out that the series is story-breakingly unrealistic literally within the first 30 seconds of ME1 by having Shepard standing up, looking over Earth, with no apparent lack of gravity that has him floating like a realistic astronaut. It's not realistic and therefor bad and the story was inherently flawed because it can't follow modern physical laws.

[KaiserShep]

That's why I like ME2 so much despite having a dumb story, all that side stuff is actually pretty interesting. Which makes me wonder what happened with the central conflict, I can't think of another story where so much good is crammed next to so much bad. Luckily, it only takes up like 14% of the game.

It made for a really positive first impression, but over time, this problem becomes more and more apparent with each revisit. I love the episodic format, but I think that in this case, it hurt the overarching narrative of the trilogy somewhat. Had the game been a self contained story, like Dragon Age, that would've made a big difference to me.

[dreamgazer]

As has been said before:
 
Verisimilitude.
 
That is all.

... really?

[dreamgazer]

Not.

Absolutely so, unfortunately.

Verisimilitude, Doctor.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Absolutely so, unfortunately.

Verisimilitude, Doctor.

 

The only absolute is that your interpretation is not so.

 

Read what I added, Dream. Your views are as necessary to a critical view as anyone else.

[ImaginaryMatter]

It made for a really positive first impression, but over time, this problem becomes more and more apparent with each revisit.

 

I noticed some things the first time, and then more and more as the playthroughs added up. It might have been because the first time I played through was with my Spacer/Sole Survivor boy scout Shepard that the Cerberus railroading really stuck out which made me more critical.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

... really?

 

Yes, really.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

1) And yup, the ability to touch a mind and cram it full of the collective unconscious of the Protheans is absolutely space magic, along with everything else we've discussed. You're simply choosing to not see it as such.
 

 

2) Yes, you completed the plot after an artificial intelligence told you where to go and what to do with a vague, time-sensitive prototype Prothean device that could have feasibly done anything. Where have I heard that before?


 

3) ReaperSaren and Vigil's DEM datafile were Sovereign's "off button".

And yes, desperate times call for desperate measures, which includes placing faith in the Protheans' technology ... which is far from an alien concept in the MEU. There's a reason why they ultimately decided to trust the device, after all.
 
 
4) Heh. The cipher, Benezia's "reawakening" from indoctrination, and the Mako's tumble onto the Citadel can be plenty immersion-breaking in the right eyes, and let's not get started with Shepard's asinine railroaded decisions that get him spaced and magically resurrected in the first half-hour of ME2. "Ah yes, Reapers" was the nail in that coffin, along with the Collector ambush and that Normandy evacuation. And I'll avoid Cerberus cooperation here, though it should also apply.

It's not "as simple as that", whatsoever.
 

5) The conflict that ultimately ended in an optional, tentative truce during wartime, you mean? Enemy of my enemy, after all, and that's after billions died in the Morning War and its cascade of events. It's proof positive of the Catalyst's assertion, and far less evidence against it.
 

6) The writing could have easily had it maneuver away from the assault once/if the situation got too hairy, let alone better handle the situation where the vessel containing the council was entirely too aggressive (and probably shouldn't even be present in this battle at all). But no, the ending needed "teh dramaz" with a gun pointed to their head, forced sacrifice and the "choose between humans and aliens" theme.
 

7) I'm fine with seeing it play out, actually.

 

1) It doesn't have the scale of space magic and it's not badly presented, like space magic is. I'm sorry, I just don't have a problem with the Cipher. It's not even that much of an important element of the narrative. Note I say narrative, not the plot or story. When you nitpick the plot stone cold with a scalpel, you're gonna get iffy stuff. But the way it's presented, it's like clockwork.

 

2) You've just compared a tractor to a supercar. Both have an engine and wheels, so they're exactly the same!

 

3) Not at all. Vigil's file was a fruit of an entire Prothean science team's labour. The Conduit was being foreshadowed from the very beginning with Kaidan's comments near the relay statue. It was real plotting, not just shoving stuff in at the end. And Sovereign's "off button" was, ultimately, a javelin missile from the Normandy.

 

4) It is. Again, all of these work. The story flows naturally. There are no stoppages, there are no immersion breaks... It's just jolly well done and that's an end of it.

 

5) The conflict in which the geth never wished to harm the quarians? The one in which they have adopted watch over the "Walled Garden", because they cared about it?

 

6) And we're lucky it didn't, because we would have missed an awesome scene.

 

7) That's fine. I just wanted to say "rend of rine", anyway.

 

 

 

Suspension of disbelief and willing participation of audience is everything. It's a shame you've allowed a really bad game to compromise the picture of a really good game.

[KaiserShep]

I noticed some things the first time, and then more and more as the playthroughs added up. It might have been because the first time I played through was with my Spacer/Sole Survivor boy scout Shepard that the Cerberus railroading really stuck out which made me more critical.

My first Shepard was a sole survivor, so the effect was rather jarring for me. In ME1, Dr. Wayne was shot without hesitation for this background, and she would have proceeded to kill any and all Cerberus operatives she came across.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

Verisimilitude.

 

"Very simulation, dude!"

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

"Very simulation, dude!"

 

I'm just trying to point out that not everyone's interpretation is spot on or that every plot hole and problem or writing problem or flaw. Some people (myself included) need that pointed out to them.

 

Everyone thinks they're more right than anyone else.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

I'm just trying to point out that not everyone's interpretation is spot on or that every plot hole and problem or writing problem or flaw. Some people (myself included) need that pointed out to them.

 

I was refering to one of MrBTongue's videos where he jokingly explains that verisimilitude is an abbrevation for the phrase "very simulation, dude!". English isn't my first language, I've learned of the word from that video, so it's now an immediate connotation for me.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I was refering to one of MrBTongue's videos where he jokingly explains that verisimilitude is an abbrevation for the phrase "very simulation, dude!". English isn't my first language, I've learned of the word from that video, so it's now an immediate connotation for me.

 

I think most people did. It's not a very common word.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

Everyone thinks they're more right than anyone else.

 

Well, it is the internet that we so bravely navigate.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

I was refering to one of MrBTongue's videos where he jokingly explains that verisimilitude is an abbrevation for the phrase "very simulation, dude!". English isn't my first language, I've learned of the word from that video, so it's now an immediate connotation for me.

 

Don't worry, I know what you were trying to say, but I was also making some not so subtle hints about this discussion.

 

If you really want to get technical, the game's unbelievable because it takes place in the future, which hasn't happened yet. Therefor, it's all space magic.

[dreamgazer]

1) It doesn't have the scale of space magic and it's not badly presented, like space magic is. I'm sorry, I just don't have a problem with the Cipher. It's not even that much of an important element of the narrative. Note I say narrative, not the plot or story. When you nitpick the plot stone cold with a scalpel, you're gonna get iffy stuff. But the way it's presented, it's like clockwork.

Unexplained, nonsensical, hand-waved clockwork.

It's space magic, and entirely necessary for the narrative, the plot, the story.
 

2) You've just compared a tractor to a supercar. Both have an engine and wheels, so they're exactly the same!

More like a Camry and an Acura TL. Same principles, similar components, but one's of a higher class than the other (and yes, ME1's ending is the higher-end model).
 

3) Not at all. Vigil's file was a fruit of an entire Prothean science team's labour. The Conduit was being foreshadowed from the very beginning with Kaidan's comments near the relay statue. It was real plotting, not just shoving stuff in at the end.

Kaidan's comment is 100%, absolutely optional and not in any way indicative that it's a (lore-bending) functional relay.

And I was referring to the Citadel-hacking datafile, not Vigil himself.
 

4) It is. Again, all of these work. The story flows naturally. There are no stoppages, there are no immersion breaks... It's just jolly well done and that's an end of it.

Nope. You just overlooked plenty of evidence to the contrary.
 

5) The conflict in which the geth never wished to harm the quarians? The one in which they have adopted watch over the "Walled Garden"?

Nobody said that the conflict was entirely one way (organics are responsible, too), and you've still got the numbers from the Morning War to contend with, as well as the fact that the "heretic" geth were a problem in ME1 and ME2.
 

6) And we're lucky it didn't, because we would have missed an awesome scene.

And in the process, it presents an origin point for the series' forced sacrifices, constrained decision-making, and heavy-handed themes in its endings.
 

7) That's fine. I just wanted to say "rend of rine", anyway.

Gotcha.

[dreamgazer]

Don't worry, I know what you were trying to say, but I was also making some not so subtle hints about this discussion.
 
If you really want to get technical, the game's unbelievable because it takes place in the future, which hasn't happened yet. Therefor, it's all space magic.

Some not-too-fair ones, in fact.  Let's try not to reduce the conversation like this, Doctor, because it's disingenuous. 

[dreamgazer]

The only absolute is that your interpretation is not so.

 

Read what I added, Dream. Your views are as necessary to a critical view as anyone else.

 

And I absolutely agreed with that viewpoint, which at the very least raises numerous red flags about the direction taken in ME2's storytelling. 

 

But sure, you're free to dismiss my viewpoint as subjective, or even biased.  That's entirely fine.  I'm able to do the same.  

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

 

And I absolutely agreed with that viewpoint, which at the very least raises numerous red flags about the direction taken in ME2's storytelling. 

 

But sure, you're free to dismiss my viewpoint as subjective, or even biased.  That's entirely fine.  I'm able to do the same.  

 

That was my point.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Some not-too-fair ones, in fact.  Let's try not to reduce the conversation like this, Doctor, because it's disingenuous. 

 

I wouldn't say they aren't fair at all, Dream. I'd say a capacity towards criticism towards this fiction, and all interpretations of it, is necessary. Lest we all agree that it's unrealistic, period. Seems very fair to me.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

1) Unexplained, nonsensical, hand-waved clockwork. It's space magic, and entirely necessary for the narrative, the plot, the story.
 

2) More like a Camry and an Acura TL. Same principles, similar components, but one's of a higher class than the other (and yes, ME1's ending is the higher-end model).
 

3) Kaidan's comment is 100%, absolutely optional and not in any way indicative that it's a (lore-bending) functional relay.

 

And I was referring to the Citadel-hacking datafile, not Vigil himself.
 

4) Nope. You just overlooked plenty of evidence to the contrary.
 

5) Nobody said that the conflict was entirely one way (organics are responsible, too), and you've still got the numbers from the Morning War to contend with, as well as the fact that the "heretic" geth were a problem in ME1 and ME2.
 

6) And in the process, it presents an origin point for the series' forced sacrifices, constrained decision-making, and heavy-handed themes in its endings.
 

 

1) It is explained, it even has a codex entry. It's not nonsensical, it's just a fantastical element in what is otherwise a sci-fi setting. Dune had the spice mind-melidng, ME has the Cipher. It's nicely downplayed and simply not a problem. And it is necessary for the story, sure, it's a part of it. That's an argument for the story, not against it, that it's composed of bits that are necessary to it.

 

2) I'll agree on a Peugeot 205 GTI T16 Rally car and a Peugeot 207. Diesel. It's a very nice analogy come to think of it, they were made by the same company, but by different people, and the newer one is generally similar (it's a hatchback), but essentially it's something completely different, it's ugly and in general a bit rubbish.

 

3) But it's there, which at least shows they thought about it. And yes, I said Vigil's file, not Vigil.

 

4) Incorrect. There is no evidence, as whether a story works or not is highly subjective, and people generally didn't have your problems with ME1's story. You're finding problems where there aren't any.

 

5) Oh come on. The entire situation is pretty much begging for Shepard to drop by and do something awesome to solve the conflict peacefully against all odds.

 

6) Ah, you see, you couldn't be more wrong. There is no precedent. The sacrifice always has a payoff, it feels poignant but necessary (I don't know if it actually is necessary after you've analyzed the situation from a gazillion different viewpoints and come up with 13 differently written scenarios for that scene, but it doesn't feel contrived when you play it), and maybe even more significantly, there is no picking up on it whatsoever (the sacrifice thing) in ME2, where you can save everyone if you do well. Mass Effect is about earning your happy ending. I'm not having it any other way.