1005 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

Shepard was also needed to get Javik out of his refridgerator alive.

You're right, I forgot about that.

[SporkFu]

Theoretically, Shiala should have been able to 'see' the same information shep did. 

[AlanC9]

Odds are that if the Alliance/council had picked someone else as a figurehead, we would have been able to defeat the reapers as well (as long as we have Javik to activate the beacon).

And to use the Crucible, I guess.

It'd be funny if Javik got there in a low-EMS state with the Collector Base saved.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

It would be the right decision by Shepard. Instead of stewing in a Council Prison, being interrogated and treated like crap, all for the hope of getting a plea bargain that won't have her facing capital punishment for being associated with Cerberus, she'd be a lot more useful somewhere like the Normandy where she can actually put her abilities to use. And you didn't address his statement. The Council isn't going to send some of their best agents to get mowed down by Shepard in this time of war. They're needed elsewhere, and Shepard doesn't have time to worry about the Council's demands over a trustworthy squadmate who may or may not be his significant other. If the Council is that stupid to waste resources on a hunting and confronting and getting killed by a Spectre who's always shown a disposition for going rogue in the past (and it always paying off), then somebody up in the chain is going to notice this and bring it to others attention, and the Council would be replaced. As for how she's worth so much, I'm not surprised.

 

Honestly, yes. Everything. I'm willing to say that Shepard is more valuable than all of them combined. I look at it without sensibility or rationality. And it's good, because the game supports my position completely: Shepard is the greatest soldier/dude/champion-mcawesome who ever lived. I understand fully how it is, and as I said, I'm riding that bomb into the abyss. Take Shepard out of the war, and it's immediately completely hopeless. Such is the way of the power fantasy.

 

She's proven her value and worth to Shepard in the past, who has more than shown his value and worth. If he vouches for her, which he likely would, she'd be fine. Nobody is going to turn down help at this point in the war, especially when it's voluntary. Miranda being with Cerberus isn't going to stop that. She had useful information, and she voluntarily contributed. That's all the alliance needs to worry about. Plus, I will say that you have come off in the past as being rather resentful and disliking of Miranda.

The point being, Spectres still have to answer to jurisdiction. And who knows, maybe if she had been being interrogated at the beginning of the war, a great deal of those Cerberus operations could have been stopped, or even better, six months before. 

Well, well. Look at the bolded. 

Doesn't mean she shouldn't face justice for being a terrorist. If not before or during, then after the war. Hell yeah I dislike her, she's a poorly written character who's even a bigger Mary Sue than Liara, which is saying something. 

[Ozzy]

Mary Sue

Whoomp, there it is.

 

It's staggering how abused that word is here. 

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

The point being, Spectres still have to answer to jurisdiction. And who knows, maybe if she had been being interrogated at the beginning of the war, a great deal of those Cerberus operations could have been stopped, or even better, six months before. 

Well, well. Look at the bolded. 

Doesn't mean she shouldn't face justice for being a terrorist. If not before or during, then after the war. Hell yeah I dislike her, she's a poorly written character who's even a bigger Mary Sue than Liara, which is saying something. 

 

I very highly doubt that, considering TIM would likely change things up to be beyond even Miranda's knowledge. She does have useful information though, and it is better served with her utilizing it first hand, not being put in a maximum security confinement with a dispassionate lawyer telling her that if her information checks out, she might have a chance of being able to commute a capital punishment charge for a life imprisonment one. That's just a waste of resources there, considering everything that Miranda has to offer, being a polymath as well as a highly trained and experienced operative and field officer.

 

Well, I think the issue here comes down to you not liking Miranda. Your assertion is completely untrue of course. The game more than makes it clear that Miranda is not a Mary-Sue character. For starters, to be a Mary-Sue, she must be shilled as perfect and beloved by everybody. She's not. All of her traits and talents are logically explained in the game, and she wouldn't have a problem with her identity and ownership of her strengths and achievements. Hell, her loyalty mission is a lot about how she feels she made a mistake with her attachment and let it become a problem for her. She's definitely not beloved by everybody. I'd say she has the coolest reception amongst the crew, with really only Shepard and Jacob being the only two people of the main cast to be friendly with her. By any of these counts, the entire notion of her being a mary sue is utterly destroyed. If anything, she's a deconstruction of the trope. She was designed by her father (who she hates) to be a proverbial Mary-Sue, and she rejected this to make her own way in life while coming to the conclusion that despite her determination and drive, she can't truly take acceptance for her positive traits, only able to hold onto the negative ones, and viewing herself as a tool or a trophy to be used or put on a pedestal.

 

Another way she isn't a Mary-Sue is that Miranda isn't treated with sympathy and fawning adoration and love by everyone, which, ding-ding, Liara happens to be; when she's sad, everyone feels sorry for her and empathizes with her, and the only person who doesn't is Javik, who is portrayed to be more unsympathetic and snarky (which comes across as the writers almost wanting you to side with her over him in their argument). You almost never hear a single negative comment about Liara from anyone who isn't a villain that you get to kill. So I'd say that Liara, while still only loosely a true Mary-Sue, much, much, much more closely resembles the standard definition of a Mary-Sue than Miranda.

 

Cerberus weren't terrorists, not by the definition I'd call them. And what is justice anyway? I view it as nothing but vengeance trying to wrap itself in virtue. What does she have to answer for beyond you having a negative and heavily biased opinion for?

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Which she doesn't use until, at all, until after Horizon, which at that point, is really no necessary at all, seeing as the who war comes to a conclusion days later. 

Yes, Miranda has personality problems, but everything just screams Mary Sue. The "genetically perfect" human who is supposedly a powerful biotic, skilled shot, supposedly excellent personnel manager, biologist, geneticist, black-ops operator, fighter pilot, etc, isn't at all similar to being a Mary Sue. Of course. 

Your second and third paragraphs make the same point. 

People who kidnap kids, torture and kill said kids, "killing Alliance admirals who ask too many questions", ambushing patrols with thresher maws and injecting soldiers with thresher maw venom to see what happens, attack ships in the migrant fleet, etc, can certainly be classified as terrorists. 

[Farangbaa]

Excelent personnel manager who can't help but get in a fight with the personnel.

Is all Jack's fault, of course.

[KaiserShep]

Which she doesn't use until, at all, until after Horizon, which at that point, is really no necessary at all, seeing as the who war comes to a conclusion days later. 

Yes, Miranda has personality problems, but everything just screams Mary Sue. The "genetically perfect" human who is supposedly a powerful biotic, skilled shot, supposedly excellent personnel manager, biologist, geneticist, black-ops operator, fighter pilot, etc, isn't at all similar to being a Mary Sue. Of course. 

Your second and third paragraphs make the same point. 

People who kidnap kids, torture and kill said kids, "killing Alliance admirals who ask too many questions", ambushing patrols with thresher maws and injecting soldiers with thresher maw venom to see what happens, attack ships in the migrant fleet, etc, can certainly be classified as terrorists. 

 

Regarding Miranda, I let that stuff slide because it kind of fits into the whole human advancement theme, and her being this "perfect" human being is a wholly deliberate part of her character. I guess it also helps that she's not the most likeable character in the beginning either.

 

I don't think Cerberus can really be defined as terrorists for most of this stuff. I honestly wouldn't put it past the Alliance to run similar tests in the name of scientific advancement, like injecting soldiers with certain chemicals in an attempt to study mind control.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Regarding Miranda, I let that stuff slide because it kind of fits into the whole human advancement theme, and her being this "perfect" human being is a wholly deliberate part of her character. I guess it also helps that she's not the most likeable character in the beginning either.

 

I don't think Cerberus can really be defined as terrorists for most of this stuff. I honestly wouldn't put it past the Alliance to run similar tests in the name of scientific advancement, like injecting soldiers with certain chemicals in an attempt to study mind control.

It may be part of the character, but it all goes far beyond what is reasonable, in my mind. 

And I'm sure there would be a lot more terrorist actions than what is shown, but which one of those doesn't seem bad to you? Just wondering. 

[KaiserShep]

Whether or not it seems bad to me isn't really the point.  I wouldn't agree with something like Project MKUltra, but I don't know if I would define it as terrorism either.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Whether or not it seems bad to me isn't really the point.  I wouldn't agree with something like Project MKUltra, but I don't know if I would define it as terrorism either.

Fair enough, terrorism certainly isn't the best word for all of the stuff,  but stuff like that can be far worse than terrorism, depending on the scale. 

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Which she doesn't use until, at all, until after Horizon, which at that point, is really no necessary at all, seeing as the who war comes to a conclusion days later. 

Yes, Miranda has personality problems, but everything just screams Mary Sue. The "genetically perfect" human who is supposedly a powerful biotic, skilled shot, supposedly excellent personnel manager, biologist, geneticist, black-ops operator, fighter pilot, etc, isn't at all similar to being a Mary Sue. Of course. 

Your second and third paragraphs make the same point. 

People who kidnap kids, torture and kill said kids, "killing Alliance admirals who ask too many questions", ambushing patrols with thresher maws and injecting soldiers with thresher maw venom to see what happens, attack ships in the migrant fleet, etc, can certainly be classified as terrorists. 

 

What do you mean? She's totally using her skills and knowledge of Cerberus. She confirms this in game and out. She's spending a lot of time on the run as well with very limited resources and still able to make it work. As well, the war doesn't end days after Horizon. Time-scales are never given, but at the very least, it's at least several weeks or months. Read the correspondence terminal on Liara's computer; she's been taking her own team to attack other Cerberus facilities. That's going to take a lot more than just a few days.

 

That's not Mary-Sue qualities at all. In fact, to that I refer you to a character called Asuka Langley Sohryu (or Shikinami). She was a character very similar in regards to achievements and profile (sans the over-bearing nature and crippling self-hatred), and if you know anything at all about Evangelion, you'll find that she is very clearly and harshly not a Mary-Sue. It's a word that's being thrown around a lot, and unjustly. It absolutely does not apply here, since Miranda actually has justification for having a great deal of knowledge and expertise in various subjects. She's a trained spy for starters, so she's going to have the skills as a marksman, a field officer, and a fighter pilot. Her biotics, intelligence, physical beauty, and physiology were designed by her father so that he could have the perfect progeny, not that she could be happy, and that's something that leaves her very bitter. And yes, due to her superior intelligence, I'd argue that she is able to learn a great many different subjects with ease. Her work with Cerberus probably ensures that she needs to have a very extensive and broad subject knowledge. None of these are portrayed as Mary-Sue traits, nor are they portrayed at all in a Mary-Sue manner, which is what I got into with Liara.

 

They do. It's to emphasize the point, to hammer down how and why exactly your assertion is incorrect. You're not addressing it, which means you don't have any contention (or can't dispute them) with the points either.

 

Technically speaking, none of those are terrorism. Terrorism is a violent action undertaken in the name of a political, religious, or philosophical agenda against a state or WGO. None of those actions are committed in the name of political, religious, or philosophical agenda's.

 

And depending on your view of what they accomplished, you can justify each action.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Excelent personnel manager who can't help but get in a fight with the personnel.

Is all Jack's fault, of course.

 

It really is. Jack sort of stormed her office with intent to cause physical harm (if not outright murder) to Miranda, and she was a threat to the ship's integrity with her biotic 'expressions'.

 

She was being a petulant child, taking out all of her fury and issues on Miranda (who wasn't even involved in the operation). It's hard to reason with someone like Jack, who acts on impulse and rage.

[Daemul]

The only Mary/Gary Stu in the series is Shepard.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

It may be part of the character, but it all goes far beyond what is reasonable, in my mind. 

And I'm sure there would be a lot more terrorist actions than what is shown, but which one of those doesn't seem bad to you? Just wondering. 

 

Why? It's not portrayed in any way that is 'OMG SHE'S SUPER AMAZING AND HAWT!'

 

Rather, Miranda is actually portrayed in a way that comes across as being pitied or felt sorry for. That's a very stark contrast from any unreasonably high treatment of her that might include sympathetic portrayal and affection. When I say pitied, I mean that other characters feel sympathetic disgust. They don't like her or want to be her. They feel sorry for her for who she is, and BW portrays that with her in a rather irritating fashion throughout parts of ME3. It's part of the reason I don't like how she's portrayed in ME3.

 

None of them seem bad to me if you can put them in the correct context. There's no one true angle to view anything.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

The only Mary/Gary Stu in the series is Shepard.

 

And gloriously so.

[Farangbaa]

The only Mary/Gary Stu in the series is Shepard.

 

I yell, you do

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

What do you mean? She's totally using her skills and knowledge of Cerberus. She confirms this in game and out. She's spending a lot of time on the run as well with very limited resources and still able to make it work. As well, the war doesn't end days after Horizon. Time-scales are never given, but at the very least, it's at least several weeks or months. Read the correspondence terminal on Liara's computer; she's been taking her own team to attack other Cerberus facilities. That's going to take a lot more than just a few days.

 

That's not Mary-Sue qualities at all. In fact, to that I refer you to a character called Asuka Langley Sohryu (or Shikinami). She was a character very similar in regards to achievements and profile (sans the over-bearing nature and crippling self-hatred), and if you know anything at all about Evangelion, you'll find that she is very clearly and harshly not a Mary-Sue. It's a word that's being thrown around a lot, and unjustly. It absolutely does not apply here, since Miranda actually has justification for having a great deal of knowledge and expertise in various subjects. She's a trained spy for starters, so she's going to have the skills as a marksman, a field officer, and a fighter pilot. Her biotics, intelligence, physical beauty, and physiology were designed by her father so that he could have the perfect progeny, not that she could be happy, and that's something that leaves her very bitter. And yes, due to her superior intelligence, I'd argue that she is able to learn a great many different subjects with ease. Her work with Cerberus probably ensures that she needs to have a very extensive and broad subject knowledge. None of these are portrayed as Mary-Sue traits, nor are they portrayed at all in a Mary-Sue manner, which is what I got into with Liara.

 

They do. It's to emphasize the point, to hammer down how and why exactly your assertion is incorrect. You're not addressing it, which means you don't have any contention (or can't dispute them) with the points either.

 

Technically speaking, none of those are terrorism. Terrorism is a violent action undertaken in the name of a political, religious, or philosophical agenda against a state or WGO. None of those actions are committed in the name of political, religious, or philosophical agenda's.

 

And depending on your view of what they accomplished, you can justify each action.

She's searching for her sister for 95% of the time. Unless they waited a month to attack the known location of the headquarters of timmy, you're wrong. It was days. 

Even the most intelligent people can't do everything. The most knowledgeable physicists know next to nothing about economics, and Miranda sure as hell is not that smart. Miranda is portrayed as good at everything. That sounds like a Mary Sue to me, but I don't go about reading the definitions of tropes, so maybe I'm using the term wrong.

You said "another way" in the opening of the paragraph, which *should* indicate another point being made. I addressed it all with the first thing about all the skills, which is just unrealistic. Also, looking at it, I made some typos. Oh well. 

Oh yeah, my bad. They're not terrorism; they are far worse than terrorism. Terrorism is just an easy term. 

No, you can't justify the torture of children or any of the other things excluding Kahoku. 

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

She's searching for her sister for 95% of the time. Unless they waited a month to attack the known location of the headquarters of timmy, you're wrong. It was days. 

Even the most intelligent people can't do everything. The most knowledgeable physicists know next to nothing about economics, and Miranda sure as hell is not that smart. Miranda is portrayed as good at everything. That sounds like a Mary Sue to me, but I don't go about reading the definitions of tropes, so maybe I'm using the term wrong.

You said "another way" in the opening of the paragraph, which *should* indicate another point being made. I addressed it all with the first thing about all the skills, which is just unrealistic. Also, looking at it, I made some typos. Oh well. 

Oh yeah, my bad. They're not terrorism; they are far worse than terrorism. Terrorism is just an easy term. 

No, you can't justify the torture of children or any of the other things excluding Kahoku. 

 

Well, they certainly would have had to have waited a bit (especially if she dies and you don't have the location of the base, which would take weeks if not months to triangulate and zero in on the location). An operation of that nature against such a fortified defensive position can take weeks to plan, prepare, rehearse, reallocate, resupply, and arm for the execution itself. There needs to be a fleet staging area, all the ships have to get to that area, they have to do so relatively quietly so as not to have a security problem endanger the operation to both Cerberus and the Reapers, and they have to move in a formation from across entire portions of the galaxy. That's going to take a lot more than a few days to prepare for.

 

That's true. And Miranda never claims to be able to do everything. If you're saying she does, that's fiction you're creating. I'd also dispute your statement on physicists. How do you know that Lawrence Kraus or Neil deGrasse Tyson know 'next to nothing about economics?' Hell, Einstein knew economics rather well. He wasn't going to be teaching it at the University of Chicago anytime, but he kept himself informed enough that he was able to create a reasonable opinion supporting Socialism and Marxism. You seem to disregard the idea that Miranda is a polymath (indeed, I don't think you've ever heard of a polymath if you're making the claim that you just did). You also seem to be disregarding Miranda's intelligence (which is proven otherwise solely by her position in Cerberus and in bringing Shepard back from the dead). And you seem to be doing this for no other reason than 'I don't like Miranda, therefore she' dumb.' Miranda isn't good at everything. She's talented and skilled at a variety of tasks and professions, but she isn't good at everything. This is contradicted on the Citadel and the Normandy, both places where she's quite open with her flaws. And yes, you are using the term wrong. You stated yourself why that is.

 

How is it unrealistic to have that many skills? I think you're underestimating not only Miranda, but people who don't have anything that Miranda has. Ever hear of Leonardo da Vinci? Or Nicola Tesla? Hell, I bet even you have several skills in various different elements.

 

It's not worse than terrorism. You'd have to define how it is, and even then, it'd be a subjective perspective at best.

 

Actually you can. For science. See? I just did it. Cerberus learned some pretty valuable information from them and produced Jack, the most powerful human biotic. Even though it was catastrophic for the organization itself, they did succeed in their goal. You can justify anything if you look at it from the right perspective. Hell, one of the children who survive on the Teltin facility even thought the work was justified. Granted, he was also a bit loony, but you can't make a moral or ethical objection and expect it to be universally regarded. 

[jtav]

I wouldn't call Miranda a Mary Sue. The real mark of a Mary Sue is the degree to which they can warp the surrounding universe and unjustified specialness. Shepard I would call a Mary Sue, but none of the NPCs.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

I wouldn't call Miranda a Mary Sue. The real mark of a Mary Sue is the degree to which they can warp the surrounding universe and unjustified specialness. Shepard I would call a Mary Sue, but none of the NPCs.

 

I'd apply the term loosely to Liara. She isn't most strict definition, but she does change things when the plot needs her too.

[jtav]

I'd consider that a different writing problem. She's the flip side of Cerberus, a constantly shifting plot device.

[Farangbaa]

I'd apply the term loosely to Liara. She isn't most strict definition, but she does change things when the plot needs her too.

 

Every character in every story does this when he does something.

[AlanC9]

Yes, Miranda has personality problems, but everything just screams Mary Sue. The "genetically perfect" human who is supposedly a powerful biotic, skilled shot, supposedly excellent personnel manager, biologist, geneticist, black-ops operator, fighter pilot, etc, isn't at all similar to being a Mary Sue. Of course.

Wouldn't most of those also apply to Shepard? Plus a few more, like diplomat.