1005 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

The problem I had with the fire metaphor was that when you think back to Sovereign and, especially, the organic trolling Harbinger it makes the Catalyst appear like it has no idea what's going on.

[JasonShepard]

Obviously they do, they are intelligent beings with the capacity to choose their actions. Every Reaper we've seen in-game have been able to choose their actions. No one is holding a gun to their head and forcing them to be genocidal. They chose to be mass-murderers on their own volition.

 

This is a game universe in which free will and choice can be manipulated. Did Shepard have a choice when shooting a certain Alliance Admiral? Did Kenson have a choice when she attacked Shepard? Did any of Morinth's victims have a choice about sleeping with her? Did EDI - when shackled - have a choice about withholding information on Cerberus?

 

And I've long held the opinion that the process of making a Reaper out of a species involves indoctrinating the minds of said species.

 

So the Reapers may be free willed, but that free will may very well be... constrained. They genuinely might not have a choice about declaring war on us.

[CronoDragoon]

Obviously they do, they are intelligent beings with the capacity to choose their actions. Every Reaper we've seen in-game have been able to choose their actions. No one is holding a gun to their head and forcing them to be genocidal. They chose to be mass-murderers on their own volition.

 

Based on what? Are you ever presented a situation where a Reaper has the option to say no to the cycle?

[Arcian]

Based on what? Are you ever presented a situation where a Reaper has the option to say no to the cycle?

Based on the conversations with them. The notion that the Catalyst is directly controlling them and making them pretend to be independent is unbelievably contrived. Really, the contrivance of the Reapers supposedly being slaves but not acting like it are one of the reasons why the ending feels so incompatible with the rest of the franchise. Before the ending, they WERE written as independent and willfully evil, even IN Mass Effect 3 - I can just take the Rannoch Reaper as an example - then out of nowhere, Casey and Super MAC decides it would be cooler to introduce an Architect-like character in the last 5 minutes of the game that controls the Reapers, contradicting everything before it. Out of the f-ing blue.

[Iakus]

Based on what? Are you ever presented a situation where a Reaper has the option to say no to the cycle?

If they were independent, free of all weakness, etc, they could always refuse the cycle.

 

Unless of course, they were just some mindless force, like fire.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

If they were independent, free of all weakness, etc, they could always refuse the cycle.

 

Unless of course, they were just some mindless force, like fire.

 

Or, maybe they felt obligated to perform their function, and when faced with the problem they must solve, are unable to come up with another alternative beyond the fantastical objective of synthesis, which is a fantasy for them because the Catalyst doesn't believe that it's possible, despite it being the theoretical ideal solution.

 

Maybe they're all independent and free of weakness, etc. and choosing to do exactly what they're doing. Which is, sans outright imposing order on organics to prevent the creation of synthetics that would catastrophically overwhelm all organic life in the galaxy, or achieving synthesis or a similar singularity which renders the entire issue to be obsolete. Personally, I question the necessity of advanced, sapient synthetics (as the Catalyst explains it), and after Destroy, I hope to create a galaxy where the problem is bypassed completely by simply not creating advanced artificial life in the first place. Or use my own mastery of Reaper technology post-destroy to enact a control scenario to guide us to a synthesis scenario, on my own terms. Sounds much better.

[dreamgazer]

The fact that they abide by a systematic cycle of extinction (and hibernation) that hinges on imposing order on the chaos of organic species isn't exactly supportive of the notion that they're entirely independent.

[Iakus]

Or, maybe they felt obligated to perform their function, and when faced with the problem they must solve, are unable to come up with another alternative beyond the fantastical objective of synthesis, which is a fantasy for them because the Catalyst doesn't believe that it's possible, despite it being the theoretical ideal solution.

 

Maybe they're all independent and free of weakness, etc. and choosing to do exactly what they're doing.

 

 

"I control the Reapers.  They are my solution"

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

"I control the Reapers.  They are my solution"

 

How does he control them? It's a pretty broad spectrum.

 

The fact that they abide by a systematic cycle of extinction (and hibernation) that hinges on imposing order on the chaos of organic species isn't exactly supportive of the notion that they're entirely independent.

 

Perhaps. It could be that in their Reaper form, they have an altered perspective of logic and understanding that allows them to see the Catalyst's reasoning and agree with it. It might not necessarily be controlling or real independence seeing as they are created from another form entirely against their wishes, but in the Reaper state, they may see what the Catalyst sees.

[Arcian]

If they were independent, free of all weakness, etc, they could always refuse the cycle.

 

Unless of course, they were just some mindless force, like fire.

Which they aren't. Fire can't use strategy or discover and exploit an enemy's weaknesses. Fire can't brainwash people, play dead or lie in ambush. Comparing the Reapers to fire is super retarded.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Which they aren't. Fire can't use strategy or discover and exploit an enemy's weaknesses. Fire can't brainwash people, play dead or lie in ambush. Comparing the Reapers to fire is super retarded.

 

To that, I would agree. It was a fairly poor analogy on the Catalyst's part.

[AlanC9]

I always liked the irony of the Reapers just being another bunch of indoctrinated patsies, myself.

[AlanC9]

Which they aren't. Fire can't use strategy or discover and exploit an enemy's weaknesses. Fire can't brainwash people, play dead or lie in ambush. Comparing the Reapers to fire is super retarded.

Those objections miss the point of the metaphor, you know.

[dreamgazer]

The tactics utilized by the Reapers ultimately don't matter when both fire and the Reapers are objective, theoretically thorough, and unable to be swayed from their purpose unless they're extinguished or controlled. 

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Those objections miss the point of the metaphor, you know.

 

They could have used a better metaphor. It was a poor choice of words on the definitional scale. Especially in the manner that the Catalyst wields it, implying that fire is created for a specific purpose at all times.

[CronoDragoon]

If they were independent, free of all weakness, etc, they could always refuse the cycle.

 

That's my point, though. Now I suppose it's possible that every single Reaper agreed on the absolute necessity and ethical desirability of the cycles, but is that really very likely? Or, in a series where characters such as Saren or TIM exist, is it more likely that they think they act independently, but in actuality are subject to the overriding command of the Catalyst? That would certainly fit thematically with the entire idea of indoctrination.

 

Now even then there are differing opinions on how the control would work. Psychevore for example favors the interpretation that such utter faith in the cycles is built into their programming when they are initially constructed (and really, why wouldn't the Catalyst do this...?) though Shepard taking the form of the Catalyst after Control may hint that there is more of a Queen-Bee-controlling-the-others thing going on.

[KaiserShep]

They could have used a better metaphor. It was a poor choice of words on the definitional scale. Especially in the manner that the Catalyst wields it, implying that fire is created for a specific purpose at all times.

 

It is: to give propane and propane accessories a purpose.

 

[CronoDragoon]

They could have used a better metaphor. It was a poor choice of words on the definitional scale. Especially in the manner that the Catalyst wields it, implying that fire is created for a specific purpose at all times.

 

The better metaphor being the Catalyst is a gardener, and the Reapers are his tools, basically.

[Iakus]

I always liked the irony of the Reapers just being another bunch of indoctrinated patsies, myself.

Sadly, that's what they come across, if not simple VIs.

 

Problem is, that's not how they were originally portrayed.  Just goes to show the writers really had no idea where any of this was going.

[KaiserShep]

How they were originally portrayed was pretty much abandoned once we got to the reveal that they were actually part of some sort of parasitic system where people are harvested to reproduce themselves. And then, we have Legion's dialogue revealing that each reaper apparently has many minds within each platform. I do agree that the direction of the trilogy was obviously doing some kind of weird serpentine pattern trying to figure out where it wants to go, but as far as issues go with the overarching narrative, I think the reapers being servants of some unseen entity is the very least of them.

[dreamgazer]

Sadly, that's what they come across, if not simple VIs.
 
Problem is, that's not how they were originally portrayed.  Just goes to show the writers really had no idea where any of this was going.

Eh, Saren thought he was acting independently, too. Just sayin'.

They're each a nation, independent ... yet dogmatically adhere to a cycle of order-over-chaos extermination that's occured more times than Shepard could possibly fathom. That, to me, indicates they have a boss, design, or something that they obey.

[KaiserShep]

Before the Catalyst's reveal, I had always assumed that they were some sort of collective, like the borg. It's not as if individuality would be of much worth to giant killbots that just sit in the void between galaxies for tens of thousands of years anyway.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

How does he control them? It's a pretty broad spectrum.

 

 

Perhaps. It could be that in their Reaper form, they have an altered perspective of logic and understanding that allows them to see the Catalyst's reasoning and agree with it. It might not necessarily be controlling or real independence seeing as they are created from another form entirely against their wishes, but in the Reaper state, they may see what the Catalyst sees.

 

He controls them exactly the same way that the Shepardlyst would control them. They do what the Shepardlyst tells them to do. The Shepardlyst commands an army that none dare oppose. Without control, they would be without purpose. Unless they really enjoy what they're doing. Considering what they once were and the terror their inhabitants went through becoming what they are, I just can't imagine that they would purposely inflict that on others unless they were directed to do so. Which brings me to the next question. Is the dead meat in them alive? Or is it just dead. And the part operating the machine really just a machine. I mean Legion interfaced with Nazara, and who knows? Maybe what Legion really saw was the Catalyst? Or maybe for Legion, it was like viewing a demo program. You know how demos are. They look fantastic, and then when you get them, they're not exactly what the demo showed. Take "Aliens: Colonial Marines" for example.

 

And then there's the other thing about war. There is no war. Only the harvest. Is fire at war when it burns? Is it in conflict? Or is it simply doing what it was created to do?

[Farangbaa]

Obviously they do, they are intelligent beings with the capacity to choose their actions. Every Reaper we've seen in-game have been able to choose their actions. No one is holding a gun to their head and forcing them to be genocidal. They chose to be mass-murderers on their own volition.

No they don't. First of all, they do not believe they are killing anyone or anything, so even if they had choice, they didn't choose to be mass murderers.

Second, find me a Reaper who a)doubts what they are doing b)remembers the time before they were doing what they're doing now. There are none. The Reapers believe that what they do is what they are and that they have been doing so forever, and will keep doing so forever ('we have no beginning nor an end').

This is what the Catalyst means by 'perfect in design'. They do exactly what they're created for.

This is not free will.

I do believe they have free will in the sense of speaking for themselves. I do not believe the Catalyst controls them like you control Shepard on your controller/mouse + keyboard combination. I believe they believe they have full free will.

But they can't choose not to do the cycles. Only Shepard can choose this for them in Control, and they themselves can in Synthesis.
 

Being ignorant because you don't know any better is one thing, but refuting evidence that's staring you in the face pretty much obliterates your credibility.

See above.
 

It wasn't, because you were comparing my word play, which has nothing to do with actual warfare, to a moronic statement comparing the chemical process of combustion to an actual war fought between armed forces using deliberate strategies and tactics.

'There is no war, only the Harvest'.

[Arcian]

Those objections miss the point of the metaphor, you know.

I am objecting because the metaphor doesn't work. I wouldn't be here giving a crap if they had used a metaphor that makes sense.

 

The better metaphor being the Catalyst is a gardener, and the Reapers are his tools, basically.

Better yet, the Catalyst is the farmer and the Reapers are his literal reapers.

 

No they don't. First of all, they do not believe they are killing anyone or anything, so even if they had choice, they didn't choose to be mass murderers.

The Reapers know exactly what they are doing. If Sovereign's speech hasn't convinced you of that, I suggest you go back and watch it. If they had any problems with what they're doing, they could just stop. The fact that they haven't just means they are either completely convinced what they're doing serves a greater purpose, or they're willfully evil and morally corrupt and mass-murder people because they like it. I just don't understand why you are so goddamn eager to defend them. Hell, I might even say you sound indoctrinated.

 

Second, find me a Reaper who a)doubts what they are doing b)remembers the time before they were doing what they're doing now. There are none. The Reapers believe that what they do is what they are and that they have been doing so forever, and will keep doing so forever ('we have no beginning nor an end').

And this makes them slaves without free will, how, exactly?

 

This is what the Catalyst means by 'perfect in design'. They do exactly what they're created for.

Perfect in design means they CAN do what they were created to do. It does not mean they always, unfailingly do what they're created to do. Even if they have never deviated from the cycle, that is not evidence that they can't if they really want to.

 

You know, have you ever stopped to consider maybe they choose to do what they were created for because they are comfortable with it? Because they happen to agree with it? It just sounds like you can't deal with the prospect of the Reapers being mass-murderers because they choose to be.

 

This is not free will.

That's exactly what free will is. All human beings were brought into this world to breathe air, eat food, rid ourselves of waste products and procreate. We can choose not to do any of these things. Choosing not to may not be good for us, but that doesn't mean we are forced to choose. In fact, any of us have the capacity to do whatever we please, whenever we please. Nothing stops us from that, not really. Our brains may encourage us to act otherwise because such actions would be detrimental to our survival or well-being, but if we're really convinced it's something we want to do, there is nothing in the way to stop it. Our free will is that strong.

 

Just consider that, maybe, the Reapers just like reaping. Imagine that they actually get something out of it, whether it is satisfcation, something material, intellectual or hell, even spiritual. Maybe they are literally convinced they are doing something good, and that they get satisfaction from their morality the same way we do. You know, their conviction could be so strong for them that it's almost like a religious calling. Maybe they even consider the Catalyst their equivalent of a god? Does conviction cancel out free will? If so, does that mean people who believe in a cause are slaves without free will?

 

The Reapers have free will and they use it to mass-murder people. Why they do it is really irrelevant. Just because their actions don't reflect your white knight morality doesn't mean they can't think for themselves.

 

I do believe they have free will in the sense of speaking for themselves. I do not believe the Catalyst controls them like you control Shepard on your controller/mouse + keyboard combination. I believe they believe they have full free will.

But they can't choose not to do the cycles. Only Shepard can choose this for them in Control, and they themselves can in Synthesis.

There's no such thing as partial free will. They either have free will or they don't. Choose one.

 

And really, f-ing really, as far as Control and Synthesis goes, Control has the player eliminate the Reapers free will to substute his/her own, while Synthesis has the player eliminate all free will in the galaxy and substituting it with their own. With Control, at least the Reapers deserve what they get, but in the case of Synthesis, it is morally reprehensible in every possible way because it targets everyone, not just the Reapers.

 

You know, the ITers were sort of right. Control and Synthesis both lead to indoctrination, and its effects are so strong it's even affecting the bloody players.

 

'There is no war, only the Harvest'.

It's still a war even if the Leviathans choose not to call it one. It fits the definition of a war in every respect.