1005 réponses à ce sujet

[Daemul]

Becoming a monster to defeat a monster sitll leaves you with a monster.

 

Only in fairy tales. 

[Kabraxal]

Once you've fallen to the dark side, forever will it consume you? Maybe in some mystical universe.

Just because you act nice after it doesn't erase the atrocity. 

[Iakus]

Once you've fallen to the dark side, forever will it consume you? Maybe in some mystical universe.

Actually the phrase is "forever will it dominate your destiny"

 

Which is a point:  How do you come back from becoming a monster?

[SporkFu]

Actually the phrase is "forever will it dominate your destiny"

 

Which is a point:  How do you come back from becoming a monster?

Well, Vader did kill his boss in the end.... errr, not that I'm comparing.

[AlanC9]

Actually the phrase is "forever will it dominate your destiny"

 

Which is a point:  How do you come back from becoming a monster?

 

Beats me. I don't think "monster" is a useful term in the first place, so I'm the wrong guy to ask. Thanks for the correction.

[AlanC9]

Just because you act nice after it doesn't erase the atrocity. 

 

Nope. So what?

 

"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right."

[Iakus]

Well, Vader did kill his boss in the end.... errr, not that I'm comparing.

 

Redemption Equals Death

 

Yeah, Mac and Casey seem to believe in that too

[Kabraxal]

Nope. So what?

 

"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right."

So do what's wrong to do what's right... that's makes total sense.

[AlanC9]

So do what's wrong to do what's right... that's makes total sense.

 

Yes, it does. It's only in fairy tales that doing the "right thing" always leads to acceptable outcomes.

 

One can make a serious argument that ME was supposed to be a fairy tale, though, since being a Paragon almost always works out for the best.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Actually the phrase is "forever will it dominate your destiny"

 

Which is a point:  How do you come back from becoming a monster?

 

Depends on if you're comfortable being a monster, or if you were ever a monster to begin with.

[Kabraxal]

Yes, it does. It's only in fairy tales that doing the "right thing" always leads to acceptable outcomes.

 

One can make a serious argument that ME was supposed to be a fairy tale, though, since being a Paragon almost always works out for the best.

Not saying doing what right leads to a great outcome at all times.  I said doing wrong to get a good outcome isn't acceptable.  Totally different... sometimes it's better to die than to simply win.  

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Not saying doing what right leads to a great outcome at all times.  I said doing wrong to get a good outcome isn't acceptable.  Totally different... sometimes it's better to die than to simply win.  

 

I'm sorry, but that's completely bull.

 

If you have to do 'wrong' to get a good outcome, then what you did wasn't wrong to begin with.

[Kabraxal]

I'm sorry, but that's completely bull.

 

If you have to do 'wrong' to get a good outcome, then what you did wasn't wrong to begin with.

So if raping and murdering innocents leads to victory then they are right?  Oookkkaaaaayyyy... 

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

So if raping and murdering innocents leads to victory then they are right?  Oookkkaaaaayyyy... 

 

Absolutely. If it leads to the desired outcome to your agenda or goal, then it is perfectly acceptable to perform any task, no matter how dark or saintly. If the rape and murder of those innocents prevents the future actions to repeated on a greater number, wouldn't you say that's acceptable?

 

It's basic math.

 

Basically put, 'do what you gotta do'.

 

There ain't a giant pie in the sky waiting for you if you do things 'honorably' or 'morally'. There ain't a judge or jury to throw you to the dogs. Ultimately, it's you, your goals, and however you choose to achieve them. And the only thing to do is to not judge a choice, only make sure that it's the right one that ends well.

[Kabraxal]

Absolutely. If it leads to the desired outcome to your agenda or goal, then it is perfectly acceptable to perform any task, no matter how dark or saintly. If the rape and murder of those innocents prevents the future actions to repeated on a greater number, wouldn't you say that's acceptable?

 

It's basic math.

 

Basically put, 'do what you gotta do'.

 

There ain't a giant pie in the sky waiting for you if you do things 'honorably' or 'morally'. There ain't a judge or jury to throw you to the dogs. Ultimately, it's you, your goals, and however you choose to achieve them. And the only thing to do is to not judge a choice, only make sure that it's the right one that ends well.

 

Absolutely. If it leads to the desired outcome to your agenda or goal, then it is perfectly acceptable to perform any task, no matter how dark or saintly. If the rape and murder of those innocents prevents the future actions to repeated on a greater number, wouldn't you say that's acceptable?

 

It's basic math.

 

Basically put, 'do what you gotta do'.

 

There ain't a giant pie in the sky waiting for you if you do things 'honorably' or 'morally'. There ain't a judge or jury to throw you to the dogs. Ultimately, it's you, your goals, and however you choose to achieve them. And the only thing to do is to not judge a choice, only make sure that it's the right one that ends well.

Let's just say I completely disagree on every possible level here...raping and murder is never right no matter if it nets you your goals.  

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Let's just say I completely disagree on every possible level here...raping and murder is never right no matter if it nets you your goals.  

 

It's not wrong either.

 

There is no objective morality, no line that cannot be crossed. There is no objective evil. If it brings about your desired result, the action is a worthwhile one. To me, not standing up and doing what is necessary out of some arrogant sense of self-righteous morality is a far more evil and cowardly act than murder or rape could ever be. You deserve to be annihilated by Reapers if you think that. If I was your ally, I'd turn on you because your weakness threatens my survival.

 

If it works, do it. Results are really all that matter. It really is a fool's game to say otherwise.

[Kabraxal]

It's not wrong either.

 

There is no objective morality, no line that cannot be crossed. There is no objective evil. If it brings about your desired result, the action is a worthwhile one. To me, not standing up and doing what is necessary out of some arrogant sense of self-righteous morality is a far more evil and cowardly act than murder or rape could ever be. You deserve to be annihilated by Reapers if you think that. If I was your ally, I'd turn on you because your weakness threatens my survival.

 

If it works, do it. Results are really all that matter. It really is a fool's game to say otherwise.

Sorry, not a moral relativist in the least.  And I wouldn't want you as an ally.. the moment you deemed my death better for you I'd be a goner... never be able to turn my back on you knowing this.  

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Sorry, not a moral relativist in the least.  And I wouldn't want you as an ally.. the moment you deemed my death better for you I'd be a goner... never be able to turn my back on you knowing this.  

 

Then you're objectively wrong. Relativism is really the only possibility for morality. My existence proves it, as does history. It's simple arrogance and ignorance to claim otherwise.

 

If I was your ally, you'd probably be best to not screw up a chance for victory or success or the right thing. The right thing is not always the moral thing. And a true ally would be devoted to the cause, the goal, not just to you personally. It's a philosophy and justification of selfishness what you've got going.

[Kabraxal]

Then you're objectively wrong. Relativism is really the only possibility for morality. My existence proves it, as does history. It's simple arrogance and ignorance to claim otherwise.

 

If I was your ally, you'd probably be best to not screw up a chance for victory or success or the right thing. The right thing is not always the moral thing. And a true ally would be devoted to the cause, the goal, not just to you personally. It's a philosophy and justification of selfishness what you've got going.

Your existence proves nothing about morality... 

[AlanC9]

Not saying doing what right leads to a great outcome at all times.  I said doing wrong to get a good outcome isn't acceptable.  Totally different... sometimes it's better to die than to simply win.

When is it better to die and fail instead of winning? Anytime winning means doing something "wrong"?

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Your existence proves nothing about morality... 

 

It absolutely does, and your assertion otherwise proves your own lack of reconciliation with any more than your own.

 

Read my signature: By what right does the wolf judge the lion?

[C04L]

I must say being one of the players who played at release i was dissapoiinted.

However, having said that, time has passed and i just finnished playing it again, i enjoyed the end. having taken the green roubt im feeling much better with the extended cut.

 

Thinking on my reaction i'd have to say its to do with accepting the fact that Shepherd Had to Die. The Trilogy is only a trilogy.

And Shep' did the ultimate and saved the galaxy.

 

Mass Effect has given me a rollercoaster ride of emotions from start to finnish and continues to this day to be my most favourite Game on the Citadel.

What can i say? Thankyou to BW and to all that had input. I'm going to miss Shepherd and his and her's crew.

 

Theres just one last thing that i personaly have to say and that is to appologise to BW for being  erm so erm 'renegade' about the way the trilogy 'originaly' finished. But its all ok now that ive accepted it, it feel ok.

 

I am however Hungry for MORE ME universe! ... c'mon!

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

When is it better to die and fail instead of winning? Anytime winning means doing something "wrong"?

 

Exactly, especially if failure condemns those you protect and their descendants to death and suffering. It's little more than forfeit.

 

'I'm going to judge an action as wrong because I have to do something bad, even if it means I fail and cause just as much if not more bad things by doing nothing. But at least I have my integrity!'

 

Your integrity is misplaced if you don't maintain it by virtue of success.

[Kabraxal]

It absolutely does, and your assertion otherwise proves your own lack of reconciliation with any more than your own.

 

Read my signature: By what right does the wolf judge the lion?

Yet you are the one with the narcissistic "My mere existence proves my belief is reality!".... nothing you've said has proven anything other than you'd plumb the worst depths if you somehow think that the end is worth it.  You actually argued rape and murder are fine as long as you believe the goal merits it....... all I need to know.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Why do all these discussions end in talk about morality?