1005 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

The non-existent one?

If you say so.

 

You do seem to do a lot of judging though.  Just saying.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Except I never said "everyone believes X"... there can be moral absolutes and people still not believe in those absolutes.  Simple yet eluding you in your vain attempts to try and discredit me.  And again you conflate "well I don't believe so it can't possibly be true!".  SOrry, reality doesn't work that way.  I know it sucks for you since you are clinging to a very flimsy thread now.

 

Who or what establishes what moral absolutes exist? Nature? Sorry, no dice, rape and murder are prevalent in both. Men? Murder is very difficult to pin down, and even harder to objectively state. As for rape, there are plenty of cultures and different periods of time that would like to argue that. You have yet to provide any claim or evidence that reality works the way you think it does; in absolutes. Since it doesn't, by default, I am correct that it's a subjective matter.

 

And when was I trying to discredit you? I'm arguing against your philosophy not, calling you out and telling you that you're stamping your feet saying 'i'm right' like you are. As I've said, you seem determined to keep attacking me and not my argument or producing a counter-claim or argument for your own views. Telling me that I'm wrong over and over doesn't make me so.

 

All you've done is stomp your foot and go "what I say is right because!"  and then try and act superior.  Hell, the fact that individuals that have said they followed a philosophy like yours and you just try to hand wave it off as "those people were wrong!".  Well, according to you how could they be?  They beleived they were right and they did what they thought they had to to achieve a goal... and yet here you are trying to tack away from those valid points instead of embracing what should be the holy grail for you.  They did exactly what you've been arguing for but now you are trying to run away from them and call it a bad argument? Why is that?  Realise how terrible the philosophy really is?

 

Actually, I've provided a claim, an argument, and support for the argument. And now you're ascribing an argument to me. I never said a word about how I felt about Hitler or Stalin or Mao. You can search in all of my statements and show me where I said that, because I didn't. You're making that claim up and attacking me for it. That's very Davidian of you. Are you David come return? Making up an argument for me doesn't make it my argument. It makes it your ignorance and slander of my argument.

 

Also, hint: you were the one that first claimed something and you've offered no proof except "because I believe it!".  So I'd look in a mirror if you're attacking me for claiming something wihout proof.. It's all you've done.

 

Actually, I've provided much evidence. Denial of it (as well as non-forthcoming of your own evidence) does not make a valid argument for you. As well, I'd say you need a lesson or two in what 'proof' is in an argument. I've never used the word proof. I've used the word evidence. Proof is an invalid word that you're using and ascribing to me again.

 

AlanC9: I'd find another way or die trying if I couldn't.  Though of course, such hypothetical scenarios are usually so terrible because they almost always never work that way outside of fiction.  

 

And what good does dying do? There is, carte blanche, no other way. You're wasting time and condemning all the people you refuse to sacrifice yourself for or sacrifice your integrity for to death. Doesn't that seem to be even darker and narcissistic? You think that maintaining morality and integrity helps people. It doesn't in this case, and it very rarely applies to reality, since it's obviously much more complicated (and subjective) due to the nature of our reality.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

If you say so.

 

You do seem to do a lot of judging though.  Just saying.

 

Because I can defend my judgement. Can you?

[Kabraxal]

If you say so.

 

You do seem to do a lot of judging though.  Just saying.

What's sad, is there is an actual debate to be made for arithmetic as given by the very series this particular part of the forum is for... I'm all up for a hearty debate on who to save as ME3 gave us on Rannoch.  That's a decision where you aren't actively pulling any trigger and instead weighing an actual choice... one I don't think has a right answer in that case. But instead, there have been posts that have been very... Cerberus like... in condoning atrocities being actively committed for the greater good.  There's a steep difference in weighing "do I save this group or this group" via "do I kidnap and experiment on children to build a better humanity?".  We could have been arguing about the first, which is actually an interesting debate to have.. instead, we are arguing with a select few about committing an atrocity in the greater good.  Just, not a good debate to have..

 

And Hello.... that first paragraph keeps proving you don't even understand the point.  You are arguing belief proves you right... if you can't see the fallacy we're done here because all you've done is say "you're wrong".  The fact you can't even tackle the major individuals only proves when truly confronted, you only scream and deflect.  I mean, you are simply saying "reality is this!" and declaring you are right despite it obvious that you've haven't proven it......

[Iakus]

Because I can defend my judgement. Can you?

Defend?  All I'm hearing are excuses for various forms of brutality by saying "might makes right".

 

Nah, I don't think I want to travel this path anymore.  Stopped being fun a while ago.

[chem light]

Eh, moral relatavists tend suddenly develop very strong opinions of what is right and wrong when staring down the barrel of a gun. 

 

Then again, those with an absolute moral code tend to discover mitigating circumstances to that code whenever they find themselves violating it. 

 

Personal opinion?  If you have to become something terrible to fight something terrible, there's no point to the conflict.  Because once you defeat it, you just became another monster to take its place.

[Arcian]

So their nature motivates them to harvest us, but only in a silly fashion? I can't follow your argument.
 
Or is there no argument, just an assumption: the Reapers' nature is whatever would cause them to naturally follow the cycle scheme because that would be the efficient design? I don't see why it wouldn't be just as efficient to do this with programming.

They only harvest advanced, spacefaring life. They can do that in a couple of centuries. Once they are done, they are forced to wait a tens of thousands of years before new advanced, spacefaring species will show up. That's the reason why the cycles exist. The cycles are a consequence of the variable pace of evolution, not a design choice.
 
Ergo, their nature has zilch to do with the cycles.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

I think using nukes was stupid... the only thing you can argue is that it was less destructive than the firebombing of Tokyo at least.  But I don't look at that war and feel a sense of victory.  And I feel that if the only way to help a cause or goal is to commit murder, slavery, or rape... the only three things I can't find any good argument for, then maybe the cause just isn't worth it.  Is it really worth paradise to sail there on a sea of blood?

 

Absolutely. Is the sea of spilled blood more equal than the ocean of unspilled blood that you won't have to cross to a desolate, barren destination that offers only death by not acting?

 

I can think of a cause for all of them. Say for example, that you had a dying population of humans with a limited number of child-bearing women. Many would not want to have intercourse or procreate with unfamiliars, but at the risk of extinction, taking them against their will would be acceptable. Or murder. Was the murder of the royal family of many kingdoms and monarchies of old justified to bring forth changes and progress for all societies, which, while ostensibly good rulers themselves, the aristocracies were holding back?

 

Is slavery good? Well, it's involuntary service for capital gains. Sure, the slave is property, but like any physical property or tool, if it's well-maintained, it does its job well and doesn't let you down. And it might bring about enough gains to make it redundant and unnecessary via progress. There are a lot of pro-slavery arguments that exist, and they do raise some valid points. I don't support it on as a whole, but I can't deny the merits it produces.

[Arcian]

Eh, moral relatavists tend suddenly develop very strong opinions of what is right and wrong when staring down the barrel of a gun. 

 

Then again, those with an absolute moral code tend to discover mitigating circumstances to that code whenever they find themselves violating it. 

 

Personal opinion?  If you have to become something terrible to fight something terrible, there's no point to the conflict.  Because once you defeat it, you just became another monster to take its place.

Maybe the universe needs monsters. Better you, who are self-aware about what you are, than a monster who might confuse itself for a hero.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

What's sad, is there is an actual debate to be made for arithmetic as given by the very series this particular part of the forum is for... I'm all up for a hearty debate on who to save as ME3 gave us on Rannoch.  That's a decision where you aren't actively pulling any trigger and instead weighing an actual choice... one I don't think has a right answer in that case. But instead, there have been posts that have been very... Cerberus like... in condoning atrocities being actively committed for the greater good.  There's a steep difference in weighing "do I save this group or this group" via "do I kidnap and experiment on children to build a better humanity?".  We could have been arguing about the first, which is actually an interesting debate to have.. instead, we are arguing with a select few about committing an atrocity in the greater good.  Just, not a good debate to have...

 

In your opinion.

 

For the record, if it advances humanity, then I believe it is our moral prerogative to do those 'atrocities' to bring us forward. The greater good does outweigh the individual good. Appeals to emotion and is/ought arguments don't change that.

[KaiserShep]

So whatever happened to Blasto's partner? Did he reach retirement?

 

Still keeps me up at night.

 

Badassfully, he'll retire when he's dead.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Defend?  All I'm hearing are excuses for various forms of brutality by saying "might makes right".

 

Nah, I don't think I want to travel this path anymore.  Stopped being fun a while ago.

 

Might does make right. It's been that way since time immemorial. All history proves this.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Maybe the universe needs monsters. Better you, who are self-aware about what you are, than a monster who might confuse itself for a hero.

 

I think terms of 'monsters' and 'heroes' are childishly simplistic. They don't do justice to the complexity of humanity.

[Kabraxal]

In your opinion.

 

For the record, if it advances humanity, then I believe it is our moral prerogative to do those 'atrocities' to bring us forward. The greater good does outweigh the individual good. Appeals to emotion and is/ought arguments don't change that.

I hope to god you really don't believe this... but i'm done even wasting time with you anymore.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

I hope to god you really don't believe this... but i'm done even wasting time with you anymore.

 

I absolutely believe in that.

 

**Edited**

[chem light]

Maybe the universe needs monsters. Better you, who are self-aware about what you are, than a monster who might confuse itself for a hero.

Well since we've gone all Batman, I think I'd rather die the hero.  Per chance more non-monsters will stand up in my place.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Badassfully, he'll retire when he's dead.

 

I'm kind of bummed we didn't get to meet him on the set for Blasto:9.

 

Maybe, he was undercover as a Brute.

[chem light]

Way to rip off a Sliders episode and still come off as creepy.  Are you okay, dude?  You don't need to act like this to get attention.  If something's bothering you or you're trying to take your mind off something crappy going on in your life, by all means, PM some folks and talk it out.  Nice thing about anonymity on the internet, instead of using it to stir up fights, you can also use it to vent or find sounding boards in secrecy.  Things may suck right now, but there's always the chance they'll get better.  

 

 

I can think of a cause for all of them. Say for example, that you had a dying population of humans with a limited number of child-bearing women. Many would not want to have intercourse or procreate with unfamiliars, but at the risk of extinction, taking them against their will would be acceptable.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Way to rip off a Sliders episode and still come off as creepy.  Are you okay, dude?  You don't need to act like this to get attention.  If something's bothering you or you're trying to take your mind off something crappy going on in your life, by all means, PM some folks and talk it out.  Nice thing about anonymity on the internet, instead of using it to stir up fights, you can also use it to vent or find sounding boards in secrecy.  Things may suck right now, but there's always the chance they'll get better.  

 

Of course, if I say something untoward, I must always automatically have problems or be grasping for attention/help. Because people can't hold views that differ starkly from the norm and be considered healthy.

 

I'm quite fine and healthy, thanks! Just started a new job and am less than a month out from finally grasping my Master's Degree in International Relations!

[chem light]

Just checking on you.  You seemed to be acting contrary for the sake of being contrary.  Congrats on your new job and good luck in your studies. 

[KaiserShep]

Personal opinion?  If you have to become something terrible to fight something terrible, there's no point to the conflict.  Because once you defeat it, you just became another monster to take its place.

 

I guess that really depends on what this terrible thing is. What if it came down to the choice between acting and the extermination of the entire species? Like, within the MEU, if it came down to choosing between the human race and every other species throughout the galaxy, I'd choose the former without a moment's hesitation. I would see it as a terrible thing, and a massive tragedy to empty out the galaxy like that, but I'd do it just the same and would do it again. If that makes me a monster, whatever that word really means to someone, then so be it.

[chem light]

It seems to me, the point of battling a civilization, an organization, an institution, etc.... is that it is a status quo we do not tolerate.  If I replace that with something equally reprehensible, what was the point?

 

I will concede to the existence of difficult decisions.  Believe me when I say I understand triage or the making the best of poor options, but what I will not concede to is the neccesity of comprimising one's self. 

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Just checking on you.  You seemed to be acting contrary for the sake of being contrary.  Congrats on your new job and good luck in your studies. 

 

Nope, I'm a semi-perfectly adjusted man living in a city that's great but would rather move westward, coming from a line of Naval officers, and being an officer in the Army National Guard myself.

 

And looking to travel and see and do things all over the world once more. I lived abroad so much growing up, and I'm hoping to emigrate to Australia in the next few years. And get a degree in Earth Science, though not sure what specific area of study to go after. There's a lot to do with life, and so much time to do it.

 

I might even go back to Afghanistan. Very good pay.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Can you please outline more on this post

 

How do you measure the "usefulness" of a child to such a degree that you can slaughter them and process their bodies?

 

By what they can offer and are likely to offer in the future based on what they show in return.

 

For example, if they have low marks in school and show no inclination towards improvement, they likely aren't going to be much more than a burden on society.