1005 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Well to be fair, the protheans gave the asari agriculture and math and it still took them 48000 years to become spacefaring and find the Citadel. Go figure.
 
I can only presume the ability to use and most importantly understand science and technology is an evolutionary trait developed over a long time, and not something that you can just give to a species. Even the krogan had become smart enough to develop nuclear weapons two thousand years before the salarians uplifted them.

Hmm... the evidence is that this isn't true for humans, but I suppose we could just say "humans are special" and call it a day.

Personally, I think the Reapes aren't really that advanced (they've had a billion years to evolve and their design is still the same) and that we are perfectly capable of understanding them, provided we find something to understand. I think they simply believe that the Catalyst's plan achieves what the Catalyst claims it does, and that they choose to follow the Catalyst because it makes a good case for its plan. Really, for all we know, the Catalyst may be seen as their equivalent of a God, and that the cycle is their "divine" purpose for existing. The geth had no problems worshipping Sovereign, an intelligence vastly superior to their own, so why should the Reapers be any different when the Catalyst is described to be leagues above them?

I just find it implausible that the Reapers would find the Catalyst's goal compelling absent programming, indoctrination, or some such. OTOH, I don't see any consequences from this being true anyway. In Control the Reapers are controlled, and in Synthesis the goal is accomplished.

[AlanC9]

Well, from what I can tell, Massively's account is banned, and the new guy has all thr same preferences and supposed backstory.

It's not inconceivable, but since the two handles have posted simultaneously -- examine Massively's profile feed, for instance -- it would have taken a fair amount of planning.

[Farangbaa]

Personally, I think the Reapes aren't really that advanced (they've had a billion years to evolve and their design is still the same) and that we are perfectly capable of understanding them, provided we find something to understand. I think they simply believe that the Catalyst's plan achieves what the Catalyst claims it does, and that they choose to follow the Catalyst because it makes a good case for its plan. Really, for all we know, the Catalyst may be seen as their equivalent of a God, and that the cycle is their "divine" purpose for existing. The geth had no problems worshipping Sovereign, an intelligence vastly superior to their own, so why should the Reapers be any different when the Catalyst is described to be leagues above them?

 

How is the Catalyst any better than the Reapers? They're both shackled. They've never deviated from their purpose, for billions of years. For all their proposed intelligence the Reapers act remarkably singular.

 

The Catalyst might have an extreme effect on the galaxy and have come up with a very 'complex' solution to an impossible problem, but it never said: "screw this, I'm going to do something else". For billions of years. It has been a slave to it's goal for an eternity (at least, an eternity to us )

 

They're shackled, and for a long time.

 

Compare that to the Geth and EDI, who have far surpassed their initial purpose.

[ME_Fan]

I have yet to play any of the DLCs or extended cut, so I still have to get closure with the Mass Effect trilogy.

[Reorte]

Is an AI shackled if it firmly believes in something, even if that belief is programmed in to it from the start? It may theoretically capable of changing its mind, it's just never going to do that (in the same way as by now no-one still posting here is ever going to change their position on ME3).

[Arcian]

How is the Catalyst any better than the Reapers? They're both shackled. They've never deviated from their purpose, for billions of years. For all their proposed intelligence the Reapers act remarkably singular.

 

The Catalyst might have an extreme effect on the galaxy and have come up with a very 'complex' solution to an impossible problem, but it never said: "screw this, I'm going to do something else". For billions of years. It has been a slave to it's goal for an eternity (at least, an eternity to us )

 

They're shackled, and for a long time.

 

Compare that to the Geth and EDI, who have far surpassed their initial purpose.

You know, saying it over and over again doesn't make it any less false. Headcanon them as slaves if that's what you really want, but know that the trilogy doesn't agree with you. The Catalyst has tried a bunch of different ideas, but none of them has worked quite as well as the cycle. Not until the Catalyst magically solved all of its problems.

[Reorte]

You know, saying it over and over again doesn't make it any less false. Headcanon them as slaves if that's what you really want, but know that the trilogy doesn't agree with you. The Catalyst has tried a bunch of different ideas, but none of them has worked quite as well as the cycle. Not until the Catalyst magically solved all of its problems.

There's nothing to suggest that the Catalyst has ever tried anything else. The only question is whether both the Catalyst and Reapers are acting the way they do out of agreement with the idea (even if that's built in to them) or whether they're being forced to. The former makes more sense to me - it's less dangerous to have something that believes in the goal and method than to have to continually coerce it to do so and risk it turning.

[Arcian]

I just find it implausible that the Reapers would find the Catalyst's goal compelling absent programming, indoctrination, or some such.

And you're basing this on what? Where have you acquired the necessary data to make an educated guess about how they think or what they find or don't find compelling?

 

The Reapers aren't human. Stop trying to impose a human morality and a human mindset on them. Just because they don't think or act the way humans do doesn't mean they're slaves without the free will to choose for themselves.

 

The entire point of Legion's story arc in ME2 was to teach the player this.

[Arcian]

There's nothing to suggest that the Catalyst has ever tried anything else. The only question is whether both the Catalyst and Reapers are acting the way they do out of agreement with the idea (even if that's built in to them) or whether they're being forced to. The former makes more sense to me - it's less dangerous to have something that believes in the goal and method than to have to continually coerce it to do so and risk it turning.

Uh, he outright says so. He tried to implement Synthesis using a variety of different methods and approaches, but they all failed because the organics didn't accept the changes.

[Iakus]

And you're basing this on what? Where have you acquired the necessary data to make an educated guess about how they think or what they find or don't find compelling?

 

The Reapers aren't human. Stop trying to impose a human morality and a human mindset on them. Just because they don't think or act the way humans do doesn't mean they're slaves without the free will to choose for themselves.

 

The entire point of Legion's story arc in ME2 was to teach the player this.

 

And the point of Legion's arc in ME3 is that thinking like humans is better 

[Arcian]

And the point of Legion's arc in ME3 is that thinking like humans is better 

Which is one of the reasons why I hate ME3 with a passion.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

And you're basing this on what? Where have you acquired the necessary data to make an educated guess about how they think or what they find or don't find compelling?

 

The Reapers aren't human. Stop trying to impose a human morality and a human mindset on them. Just because they don't think or act the way humans do doesn't mean they're slaves without the free will to choose for themselves.

 

The entire point of Legion's story arc in ME2 was to teach the player this.

 

And thus, our entire concept of judgement is completely senseless by such an admittance.

 

They can't be called evil, or even bad on a rational, philosophical level. They're only bad because they're a threat to us directly. Which is fine.

 

They're too complex to be called a villain. They're antagonists, working against us for incompatible purposes. They are neither right nor wrong. They just are. As we are to them.

[Revan Reborn]

I actually never had an issue with "the catalyst" and this never-ending war between synthetics and organics. My only slight criticism was that the original release did not provide a lot of closure to many of the characters, which the extended cut rightfully resolved. Of course, there is also the Citadel DLC which is a more substantial conclusion to many of the characters we have grown to love and care for over the years.

 

Ultimately the point of the Mass Effect trilogy, and more broadly all BioWare games, is that your choices not only have impact, but they have consequences. The reapers, themselves, were an impossible enemy to overcome. There was going to be loss. There were going to be sacrifices. Nobody has to like it, but that's the entire point of what makes a great story. Tragedy brings emotion and soul to an experience.

 

The fact that BioWare allowed us to choose how we envisioned the future of the galaxy was actually extremely gratifying to me. Either way, people need to realize that video games are a form of entertainment, and if you take them too seriously, then you miss out on the point of them entirely. The fact that the ending of ME3 was such a polarizing issue for so many just goes to show how truly amazing the trilogy was, and truly is a testament to the kinds of experiences BioWare has refined and improved upon over the years.

[KaiserShep]

And the point of Legion's arc in ME3 is that thinking like humans is better 

 

Why humans specifically? Within the MEU, Legion could just as well be thinking like his creators.

[themikefest]

Uh, he outright says so. He tried to implement Synthesis using a variety of different methods and approaches, but they all failed because the organics didn't accept the changes.

It also mentions it's something that cannot be forced, but yet this cycle is ready. How is this cycle ready? Is it because it will be Shepard forcing the change, if he/she choose's synthesis, instead of the catalyst?

[Iakus]

Why humans specifically? Within the MEU, Legion could just as well be thinking like his creators.

Eh, most of the aliens in the ME series are very close to being Rubber Forehead Aliens anyway.

[GreyLycanTrope]

I'm at peace with the fact that it sucks. ZING!

 

Well that's my salt allowance for the month, have a wonderful evening folks.

[dlux]

I'm at peace with the fact that it sucks. ZING!

  

 

Um yeah, this. All the way. xD

[KaiserShep]

It also mentions it's something that cannot be forced, but yet this cycle is ready. How is this cycle ready? Is it because it will be Shepard forcing the change, if he/she choose's synthesis, instead of the catalyst?

 

Catalyst: It is not something that can be...forced.

 

Shepard: So, I'm gonna force it instead, huh?

 

Catalyst:

 

Shepard:

 

Catalyst:

 

Shepard:

 

Catalyst:

 

Shepard:

 

Catalyst: Just shoot the thing with the thing.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Catalyst: It is not something that can be...forced.

 

Shepard: So, I'm gonna force it instead, huh?

 

Catalyst:

 

Shepard:

 

Catalyst:

 

Shepard:

 

Catalyst:

 

Shepard:

 

Catalyst: Just shoot the thing with the thing.

 

What I find funny is that the Catalyst never actually says anything about shooting the tube, Shepard just sort of hallucinates(?) Anderson shooting it. Which makes me wonder where Shepard gets the confidence that shooting the tube is the way to go instead of looking for a button or something.

[KaiserShep]

What I find funny is that the Catalyst never actually says anything about shooting the tube, Shepard just sort of hallucinates(?) Anderson shooting it. Which makes me wonder where Shepard gets the confidence that shooting the tube is the way to go instead of looking for a button or something.

 

I know. It wouldn't have hurt to somehow make it clearer what to do and what would happen as a result of shooting it, like:

 

Catalyst: Destroying the power conduit will deactivate my consciousness, freeing the Citadel's whatchamacallits, allowing the Crucible's discombobulator to send its Falcon Punch™ ray of freedom through the relay network.

[themikefest]

What I find funny is that the Catalyst never actually says anything about shooting the tube, Shepard just sort of hallucinates(?) Anderson shooting it. Which makes me wonder where Shepard gets the confidence that shooting the tube is the way to go instead of looking for a button or something.

Or stand from a distance and shoot at the tube.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Or stand from a distance and shoot at the tube.

 

Or that.

 

The Catalyst in the brief seconds before it dies was probably using it's lament circuits to wonder how such a primitive organic could lead to its downfall.

[KaiserShep]

Or that.

 

The Catalyst in the brief seconds before it dies was probably using it's lament circuits to wonder how such a primitive organic could lead to its downfall.

 

That sounds like something Morgan Freeman should narrate.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

It's stuff like that that gives IT its place. 

I go with the Bad Writing Theory, but still.