1005 réponses à ce sujet

[ahsari2014]

My only issue with the ending was the motivations of the Reapers.  I'm a very late comer to the party (having finished the series for the first time a little over a week ago,) and that was the only part of the game that outright made me angry.  
 

 
However, I'm not going to let 10 minutes of poorly explained dialogue ruin my experience with the games.  I let Citadel be my ending and just move on out from there.  I'm not going to pre-order any ME game or even buy it new without reading a lot of reviews first.  I'm too skeptical to do otherwise, but I'm at peace.

. The Leviathans had expierence with synthetics that were a treath to all life. Probably also civilazations without spaceflight. The reapers however are under control by the Catalyst. The Catalyst operates by a mandate . This mandate is a set of rules which the Leviathans gave him. Namely destroy all advanced spaceflight civilazations . The trigger is ofcourse the development of artificial intelligence .

[dorktainian]

He It did not mean the Reapers by chaos. 

yeah I know.  But you do realise self preservation is the aim of that conversation.  Insert doubt in the mind of the man who can blow you all to hell....supposedly.  

 

So I'm (we're) commander Sheploo. I made it this far wanting to end the reaper threat.  I've learned a few lessons along the way.  Mistakes made.  How to prevent those mistakes happening again.  How to make massive assumptions about a huge Mr Microphone based on no solid evidence whatsoever.  I've found out i'm the only organic to make it this far (however far that is).  I came across many things during my time.  Not many of which were good things.  I slept with a semi racist woman in the first game, before discovering the delights of Quarian suit lovin in the second, before been scolded by my LI from the first game for sleeping with said Quarian.  Honestly it's enough to drive a fella to drink.  I made it to Rannoch to find it a barren wasteland of sorts.  I watched as my LI picked up a rock.  Shes going to claim the land apparently.  The land on top of a cliff.  Jeez hope she doesn't take her visor off.  Wouldn't want her falling over the edge.  I battled my way through various scenarios before ending up in TIM's base.  I looked on in awe as i realised it looked like a huge sound stage.  I had Kai Lame think destroying glass tiles would see my defeat.  I has a green prothean VI tell me the reapers had moved the citadel to Earth.  How do you move something so big to earth in such a short period of time?  I arrived at Earth.  I fought through the streets of london unil my tank was destroyed by a reaper blast.  I emerged from the tank and looked down at a beam of energy between 3 pillars.  Oh wait Harbinger is there.  If I run at the beam I might get shot.  Wait a moment.  Why am I running at that beam again?

 

Oh yeah.  Anderson.

 

Oh jeez.  My squadmates are injured, better call the normandy.

 

5 seconds later through the heat of battle the normandy arrives.

 

[KaiserShep]

Weird that any of the synthetics the Leviathan witnessed would be a threat to all life before the existence of the mass relays.

[Grieving Natashina]

. The Leviathans had expierence with synthetics that were a treath to all life. Probably also civilazations without spaceflight. The reapers however are under control by the Catalyst. The Catalyst operates by a mandate . This mandate is a set of rules which the Leviathans gave him. Namely destroy all advanced spaceflight civilazations . The trigger is ofcourse the development of artificial intelligence .

I've read the theories, but I can't see that as an excuse.  It reminds me too much of Sin in FFX (any city that has even remotely advance technology is mercilessly taken out by an Eldrich being, that was created by an fool that let it get out of his control) mixed with Seymour's motivations (I'll save Spira by destroying it.)

 

It sounds like the ultimate motivation of the Reapers to me.  I thought the idea was stupid in 2001 and time has not changed that opinion.

 

I'm not going to rip into anyone for agreeing with your theory posted above, I just can't see it.

 

Weird that any of the synthetics the Leviathan witnessed would be a threat to all life before the existence of the mass relays.

 

The only thing I can figure is that they didn't need the Mass Relays to get around and could travel without them.  Then again, that means that they didn't need the relays at all.  Unless they intended to dominate the galaxy all along...

 

And there goes my brain. 

[Farangbaa]

yeah I know.  But you do realise self preservation is the aim of that conversation.  Insert doubt in the mind of the man who can blow you all to hell....supposedly.  

 

Oh yeah, because the Catalyst doesn't die in any of the other solutions it offers.

 

Every instance that you know of in the game about awakening AI, what the Catalyst said (creators will try to control/destroy, created rebel) is exactly what happened:

 

EDI awakes --> kills every soldier on Luna (i.e. every soldier within it's reach)

Geth awake --> kill 99% of the Quarians

Citadel AI awakes -- > kills creator (and afterwards tell you the exact problem the Catalyst is trying to solve)

[Farangbaa]

Which makes no sense. It offers Shepard to control the Reapers because it's own being can't solve the problem but Shepard can? makes sense don't get me wrong, but this goes against it's own logic. organics and synthetics are always going to be at war with each other, yet offers Shepard to control the Reapers out of the generosity of it's processing unit?

 

Also the goal is to harvest organic life, no matter the cost. We seen what has happened from the Prothean war, and the current war at hand. It's pretty clear that is the goal. The catalyst however tries to sway Shepard that it's all legit.

 

It transfers the responsibility to solving the problem to Shepard.

 

You can act as if the synthetic-organic problem is not a real thing in the real world, but it is in the MEU. Every instance of awakening AI resulted in at least the death of it's creators (or 99% of them in case of the Quarians)

[masster blaster]

It transfers the responsibility to solving the problem to Shepard.

 

You can act as if the synthetic-organic problem is not a real thing in the real world, but it is in the MEU. Every instance of awakening AI resulted in at least the death of it's creators (or 99% of them in case of the Quarians)

It's stupid. organics vs synthetics in the real world is only there because of the possibilities of synthetics taking over the earth, as zombies, and apes doing so is stupid in the long run. With no indication of who is Superior, each one is different. We have creativity, synthetics have higher mathematics skills than we do. Both are needed to further advance in life. . As for Ai  awakening. The Geth wish not for War. The creators in fear wanted to Destroy the geth. Yet there were some who wanted to save the Geth. In reality it looks like the organics have always stared their own destruction. The catalyst went rogue imo. Proclaiming it was doing it in the name of it's programming, it turned on it's creators, and used organics, and synthetics to further it's goal into making reaps, to preserve the organics, so that they will not be lost in the war against synthetics. In reality though, it used synthetics to kill organics, didn't Always save the species genetic material, as hinted in the Prothean war. If an organic race didn't have the right DNA, then they were turned into mindless husk/collectors, altered to the deepest levels to the point they lost all of their original self.

[masster blaster]

Oh yeah, because the Catalyst doesn't die in any of the other solutions it offers.

 

Every instance that you know of in the game about awakening AI, what the Catalyst said (creators will try to control/destroy, created rebel) is exactly what happened:

 

EDI awakes --> kills every soldier on Luna (i.e. every soldier within it's reach)

Geth awake --> kill 99% of the Quarians

Citadel AI awakes -- > kills creator (and afterwards tell you the exact problem the Catalyst is trying to solve)

 

 

EDi was afraid. It just gained self awarness, the Alliance was going to shut her down. She had no idea what to do. I willing to give her the benefit of the doubt because she atoned for that.

 

Oh come on. Geth had NO CHOICE. Their creators were afraid of the Geth gained self awareness, and asking questions, they attacked FIRST, and even then there are Quarians who wanted to save the Geth. The Geth let the remaining Quarians live because they never wanted to kill their creators, and still welcomed them back home.

 

That's because it was not GUIDED right. IT had a corrupt organic master, and had little to no interest in organic life. There will always be good and evil on organics, and synthetic side. This one was evil. The catalyst is  one of these synthetics that is evil.

[MattFini]

ME3 was the first time I ever raised eyebrows at the trilogy.

 

Yes, there was dumb stuff in ME2, but aside from the Citadel attack retcon, I quite enjoyed it all.

 

From ME3's clunky opening, to Kai Leng, the fast arrival of the reapers, the auto dialogue, unsatisfying squad selection, and the ending, there were plenty of things that bothered me.

 

Ending aside, none of it stopped me from enjoying the game overall, though, and I'm even fine with the ending two years later.   

[Iakus]

EDi was afraid. It just gained self awarness, the Alliance was going to shut her down. She had no idea what to do. I willing to give her the benefit of the doubt because she atoned for that.

 

Oh come on. Geth had NO CHOICE. Their creators were afraid of the Geth gained self awareness, and asking questions, they attacked FIRST, and even then there are Quarians who wanted to save the Geth. The Geth let the remaining Quarians live because they never wanted to kill their creators, and still welcomed them back home.

 

That's because it was not GUIDED right. IT had a corrupt organic master, and had little to no interest in organic life. There will always be good and evil on organics, and synthetic side. This one was evil. The catalyst is  one of these synthetics that is evil.

Even more, EDI was literally a newborn.  If a flailing newborn human had the strength of an adult, I imagine there'd be a lot more casualties in the delivery room.

 

And yes, the Leviathans were facepalmingly stupid for an apex race.  Certainly a shoehorned-in excuse to justify the Insane Troll Logic the Catalyst was running on that Biwoare felt compelled to stand by, despite it being so obviously foolish.

[Farangbaa]

EDi was afraid. It just gained self awarness, the Alliance was going to shut her down. She had no idea what to do. I willing to give her the benefit of the doubt because she atoned for that.

 

Oh come on. Geth had NO CHOICE. Their creators were afraid of the Geth gained self awareness, and asking questions, they attacked FIRST, and even then there are Quarians who wanted to save the Geth. The Geth let the remaining Quarians live because they never wanted to kill their creators, and still welcomed them back home.

 

That's because it was not GUIDED right. IT had a corrupt organic master, and had little to no interest in organic life. There will always be good and evil on organics, and synthetic side. This one was evil. The catalyst is  one of these synthetics that is evil.

 

Everything you say here is part of the problem the Catalyst is trying to solve.

 

EDI gains awareness --> they try to shut her down --> she fights for survival

Geth gain awareness --> Quarians try to shut them down --> Geth fight for survival.

Citadel AI is not that firmly in my memory, but again, as soon as Shepard tries to shut it down, it threatens and tries to kill everybody it can.

 

Every time again, the Organics act first. This is why conflict will always follow. The motivations of the AIs are irrelevant. Conflict will always follow upon finding out their computers are alive, and depending on the power of the AI death toll ranges from a few (Citadel AI) to hundreds (EDI) to billions (the Geth). One AI that decides that not just their Creators try to shut them down, but all Organics (Creators are organic, organics are creators), and what the Catalyst is trying to prevent will happen. (And coudl've happened in the Prothean cycle during the Metacon war. Though I'll easily admit I made some assumptions here)

[CronoDragoon]

As soon as the EC came out I did another playthrough, and have done several since. ME2 still edges it out, but it's a fantastic game. Both are in my top ten for sure.

[Jukaga]

I waited on ME3 until it was complete, (before Citadel DLC) so I was never really gut-punched by the ending. I recall the scuttlebutt that it sucked but didn't pay it much mind. Do I have problems with it? Of course, the whole trilogy could have been better but I've yet to play an action RPG that I've found this compelling. I know headcanon isn't the best of reasons, but let me tell you something about myself: I headcanoned stories about linear side scrolling shooters 25 years ago so with the wealth of lore that ME gives me I can twist the narrative in my head to something more my taste.

 

Still playing ME and looking forward to the new Mass Effect.

[Jukaga]

 The ending of Mass Effect 3 is not the ending to the story of Mass Effect. 



 

 

You're right, cause they just announced a sequel.
 

[masster blaster]

Everything you say here is part of the problem the Catalyst is trying to solve.

 

EDI gains awareness --> they try to shut her down --> she fights for survival

Geth gain awareness --> Quarians try to shut them down --> Geth fight for survival.

Citadel AI is not that firmly in my memory, but again, as soon as Shepard tries to shut it down, it threatens and tries to kill everybody it can.

 

Every time again, the Organics act first. This is why conflict will always follow. The motivations of the AIs are irrelevant. Conflict will always follow upon finding out their computers are alive, and depending on the power of the AI death toll ranges from a few (Citadel AI) to hundreds (EDI) to billions (the Geth). One AI that decides that not just their Creators try to shut them down, but all Organics (Creators are organic, organics are creators), and what the Catalyst is trying to prevent will happen. (And coudl've happened in the Prothean cycle during the Metacon war. Though I'll easily admit I made some assumptions here)

So all AI's in what they say are irrelevant. This goes for the catalyst, so it's own logic and reason is irrelevant, therefor this war with synthetics is irrelevant, for there is no say to what the Ai's believe in. Seriously that is just wow. I could care less about that catalyst, but that just means it's own logic/reason is irrelevant. Thus war with synthetics is. Actually in Javik's cycle synthetics began to turn on their creators due to the Reapers involvements. Their was a race in Javik's time that had Ai's installed into their suits, however overtime they turned their creators into monsters. With the Reapers present things got to the point, where they sent the planet into a star, or black hole, can't remember for sure.

 

The point is that the Reapers have ALWAYS ever since the leviathan's time, have PROLONGED the conflict, but never actually asking where the problem went wrong. We made peace with the Geth, EDi proved her worth, and became a friend, as did Legion. There is no need to solve a problem that has already been solved at the end, thus it makes synthesis/control irrelevant for we already made peace with the synthetics. The Reapers have no more purpose. Conflict is bound to happen, but it is up to the future organics, and synthetics to preserve the peace for as long as they can.

[Rainbowhawk]

I waited on ME3 until it was complete, (before Citadel DLC) so I was never really gut-punched by the ending. I recall the scuttlebutt that it sucked but didn't pay it much mind. Do I have problems with it? Of course, the whole trilogy could have been better but I've yet to play an action RPG that I've found this compelling. I know headcanon isn't the best of reasons, but let me tell you something about myself: I headcanoned stories about linear side scrolling shooters 25 years ago so with the wealth of lore that ME gives me I can twist the narrative in my head to something more my taste.
 
Still playing ME and looking forward to the new Mass Effect.

That's why the Fan-fiction Community is a buzz of fics that are novelizations and epilogues. I'd say Bioware managed to get out of it's mistake and make the ending good enough and balanced between variation from choice and open ended for head cannons. It's given me the tools to finish the story I perceived myself through the trilogy. Granted yes there could have been things that could have been way better, but like you said, Mass Effect has no equal in the sci-fi RPG genre, at least not yet. I'm playing the trilogy for a fourth time and it's my first Femshep walk through.

[Farangbaa]

So all AI's in what they say are irrelevant. This goes for the catalyst, so it's own logic and reason is irrelevant, therefor this war with synthetics is irrelevant, for there is no say to what the Ai's believe in. Seriously that is just wow. I could care less about that catalyst, but that just means it's own logic/reason is irrelevant. Thus war with synthetics is. Actually in Javik's cycle synthetics began to turn on their creators due to the Reapers involvements. Their was a race in Javik's time that had Ai's installed into their suits, however overtime they turned their creators into monsters. With the Reapers present things got to the point, where they sent the planet into a star, or black hole, can't remember for sure.

 

The point is that the Reapers have ALWAYS ever since the leviathan's time, have PROLONGED the conflict, but never actually asking where the problem went wrong. We made peace with the Geth, EDi proved her worth, and became a friend, as did Legion. There is no need to solve a problem that has already been solved at the end, thus it makes synthesis/control irrelevant for we already made peace with the synthetics. The Reapers have no more purpose. Conflict is bound to happen, but it is up to the future organics, and synthetics to preserve the peace for as long as they can.

 

Stop taking my words out of context. The motivation for the AI in the initial conflict between them and their creators is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is that conflict will happen. That it is in self defense, confusion or whatever is irrelevant. I'm not saying that everything they think is irrelevant.

 

The Metacon War is not the same as the Zha'till being subjugated by the Reapers. The synthetics of the Metacon war are unnamed.

 

The conflict is not solved by achieving peace between the Geth and the Quarians (a peace that, mind you, lasts for like 2 weeks. Which is nothing on a timescale of 50000 years like the cycles, and less than nothing in the lifetime of the Catalyst). New AI will be created, organics will try to control or destroy it, conflict will follow.

[Heimdall]

In answer to the OP:

 

I was a bit miffed by the ending, and I think it all came entirely out of left field without proper build up to those themes.

 

But I'm over it.

 

I'm comfortable with my choice of ending for what it is and I'm happy to leave Shepard, the Reapers, and the consequences of that choice behind.  I really think that's what Bioware should do moving forward as well, leave the Ending be and make a fresh start with a new plot line without that baggage.  This is where I'd like to start extolling the virtues of Ark Theory, but I'll restrain myself.

[AlanC9]

Psychevore, you do realize you're talking to ITers, right?

[Farangbaa]

Psychevore, you do realize you're talking to ITers, right?

 

I do

[Jukaga]

I do

I really hope we get a canonized ending for ME4 to put IT to rest for good.

[masster blaster]

Psychevore, you do realize you're talking to ITers, right?

And what of it. I am talking to a person on the BSN that i am having a conversation with.

[masster blaster]

Stop taking my words out of context. The motivation for the AI in the initial conflict between them and their creators is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is that conflict will happen. That it is in self defense, confusion or whatever is irrelevant. I'm not saying that everything they think is irrelevant.

 

The Metacon War is not the same as the Zha'till being subjugated by the Reapers. The synthetics of the Metacon war are unnamed.

 

The conflict is not solved by achieving peace between the Geth and the Quarians (a peace that, mind you, lasts for like 2 weeks. Which is nothing on a timescale of 50000 years like the cycles, and less than nothing in the lifetime of the Catalyst). New AI will be created, organics will try to control or destroy it, conflict will follow.

I am not the one who put them on your post, you did. I am only staying off on what you said. There for I have a right to go from off what you  stated. It is not. If an organic has a motive, yet is listened to, but not of a synthetics, then there is something wrong here. Granted the catalyst is not my favorite thing in ME, or in gaming history imo, but if it reaches out to the organic Shepard during conflict, then their opinion in the matter is valid no?

 

It is by all counts. unnamed they may be, the Reapers subjugated the synthetics in the prothean cycle, just like with the Geth. The reapers play both sides in saving and destroying organic life. They compromise the catalyst ideals of stopping conflict, and that of it's own logic.

 

That's because they are in a WAR for survival. Mind you peace has been achived within that amount of time, and still possible could, if we put aside the endings for a bit. The Geth were helping their creators adjust to life back on their homeworld. Some peace was being made, hell even the Krogan were making peace with the Turians, and salerians at least. Also we do not have a clue the peace lasted for two weeks. Where does it say it does? I haven't heard of that at all, and i see the Geth and Quarians when the fleets arrive at Earth, so two weeks, hardly.

 

Of course it will because nobody has really dealt with the problem. We found out why it happens, and they make peace with it. The catalyst was stuck in it's old way of thinking, and still is. It believes everything needs to be perfect in order to obtain true peace between organics, and synthetics, but perfection is upsird. They are each different, and that difference, though it may cause conflict, brings new ideas and forges friendships with each other. What the Quarians and geth did was out aside the hate, and the old war between organics and synthetics.

[Jukaga]

I'm willing to bet in the countless cycles that came before us the Reapers witnessed alliances between synths and orgs. They aren't impressed. Even enemies band together against a more powerful common foe. Look at the Nazis and the Soviets. Then a few years later the Allies and the Soviets.

[Farangbaa]

I am not the one who put them on your post, you did. I am only staying off on what you said. There for I have a right to go from off what you stated. It is not. If an organic has a motive, yet is listened to, but not of a synthetics, then there is something wrong here. Granted the catalyst is not my favorite thing in ME, or in gaming history imo, but if it reaches out to the organic Shepard during conflict, then their opinion in the matter is valid no?

Yes, but that's not what I said and most certainly not the context I said what I said in. I said their motivations are invalid when the conflict arises, the conflict the Catalyst is trying to solve.

You are projecting this as if the conflict is with the Catalyst, and therefore his motivations are irrelavant. His motivations are the conflict I'm talking about.
 

It is by all counts. unnamed they may be, the Reapers subjugated the synthetics in the prothean cycle, just like with the Geth. The reapers play both sides in saving and destroying organic life. They compromise the catalyst ideals of stopping conflict, and that of it's own logic.

Not the point. The point is the Zha'Til were not at conflict with their creators because they were their creators. They're just Zha (organics) combined with symbiotic AI tech. They reached some sort of Synthesis on their own. Then the Reapers subjugated the AI and turned the Zha'Til against the Protheans. The Protheans were not the creators of the Zha'til.

The Metacon war was already raging on before the Reapers, and when the Reapers came they aided the AI. The conflict was already going here. (and would've likely been settled in Prothean favour)

A part of the problem the Catalyst postulates that's barely ever mentioned, is that all (intelligent) organics will create synthetics, given enough time. And organics will subsequently try to destroy or control their creations, and the conflict follows.
 

That's because they are in a WAR for survival. Mind you peace has been achived within that amount of time, and still possible could, if we put aside the endings for a bit. The Geth were helping their creators adjust to life back on their homeworld. Some peace was being made, hell even the Krogan were making peace with the Turians, and salerians at least. Also we do not have a clue the peace lasted for two weeks. Where does it say it does? I haven't heard of that at all, and i see the Geth and Quarians when the fleets arrive at Earth, so two weeks, hardly.

 

Even lasting peace between the Geth and Quarians would not solve the problem. See above.
 

Of course it will because nobody has really dealt with the problem. We found out why it happens, and they make peace with it. The catalyst was stuck in it's old way of thinking, and still is. It believes everything needs to be perfect in order to obtain true peace between organics, and synthetics, but perfection is upsird. They are each different, and that difference, though it may cause conflict, brings new ideas and forges friendships with each other. What the Quarians and geth did was out aside the hate, and the old war between organics and synthetics.

It's not trying to create perfection by synthesis (at least, that's what I think you mean by 'believing everything needs to be perfect'), it's trying to eradicate the organic vs synthetic conflict by removing the differences.

 

p.s the conflict is initially created vs creators, but by nature it's also a synthetic vs organic and could easily escalate.