1005 réponses à ce sujet

[masster blaster]

I'm willing to bet in the countless cycles that came before us the Reapers witnessed alliances between synths and orgs. They aren't impressed. Even enemies band together against a more powerful common foe. Look at the Nazis and the Soviets. Then a few years later the Allies and the Soviets.

Nothing last forever, but it is the job of the next generation to hold onto the bonds made by the old. We each choose our fates, and they can lead us to good or bad things. It all depends on how the syntheics and organics view one another though, and if they can do the best they can to work as one.

 

I am pretty sure they weren't, but that would have meant the cycle was over. conflict is bound to happen. How long, i have not a clue, but that does not mean you just continue to carry out your programming because of " well in the future...". You work it out. No matter how long it takes, you work things out. If it comes to violence then it happens. Then when enough is enough peace is made. It is a cycle of pure nature, and organic and synthetic behavior. They can change, but it takes time.

[von uber]

This thread reminds me of this;

http://dailymotion.c...ced-jar-jar_fun

[masster blaster]

But that is the point though. It takes time. The catalyst has always interrupted the conflicts with organics and synthetics, and has caused further tension between the two sides. You can not expect everyone to just go " Oh well this all wrong". Our differences is what make us unique. Different ideals, appearances, backgrounds, and more. This idea that " we all need to be the same" is folly. We don't have to be, just work with one another. It's not easy, but it takes time. The peace in times may not last, and war might start up again, but you do the best you can told hold onto the peace, and forge a new one after the war is done.

[Excella Gionne]

"Peace is something to be learned, to be understood, to be embraced." 

[TRWisco]

I finished the game before I had any dlc aside from the pre order bonus from gamestop, and I can tell you when I finished at like 2 am I was just completely flaberghasted at the ending. I believe I said WTF and something like that was the ending they were hyping up? non of it makes sense. I didnt play it for 3 months after that. at all. But now I've done a few playthroughs and on this last one its kinda like watching a bad movie that still makes no sense so you just laugh.

[AlanC9]

I am pretty sure they weren't, but that would have meant the cycle was over. conflict is bound to happen. How long, i have not a clue, but that does not mean you just continue to carry out your programming because of " well in the future...". You work it out. No matter how long it takes, you work things out. If it comes to violence then it happens. Then when enough is enough peace is made. It is a cycle of pure nature, and organic and synthetic behavior. They can change, but it takes time.

Or maybe synthetics really will surpass organics and run the galaxy the way they see fit. Might as well let them, since they're the superior form of life. Doesn't mean organics will necessarily be exterminated, as long as we stay out of their way. We'll just be the equivalent of mice, cockroaches, or other vermin.

[Mcfly616]

Peace. Yup.

[masster blaster]

Or maybe synthetics really will surpass organics and run the galaxy the way they see fit. Might as well let them, since they're the superior form of life. Doesn't mean organics will necessarily be exterminated, as long as we stay out of their way. We'll just be the equivalent of mice, cockroaches, or other vermin.

Neither is Superior. Both have flaws. Synthetics lack creativity, can be affected by virus as can an organic, they can make errors, still get hacked into, etc. Organics are driven by emotions, can causer serious complications, or not. I believe both are needed to show the other the impossibilities they both can not achieve on their own, thus unity is key. Working together makes them a deadly force.

[Mcfly616]

Except that they can't work together for an extended period time. Inherent in their nature.

[masster blaster]

Except that they can't work together for an extended period time. Inherent in their nature.

They can still try. Just because it may not work time after time after time again, does not mean they should just give up. Things take time to develop, and i think it can work. It will just be up to those that believe things can work out, fight for it, and preserve the peace.

[AlanC9]

Neither is Superior. Both have flaws. Synthetics lack creativity, can be affected by virus as can an organic, they can make errors, still get hacked into, etc. Organics are driven by emotions, can causer serious complications, or not. I believe both are needed to show the other the impossibilities they both can not achieve on their own, thus unity is key. Working together makes them a deadly force.

So they're equal because..... they just have to be?

[masster blaster]

So they're equal because..... they just have to be?

No. They work as one because they want to, and not have to, yet some do because they have no other choice. It all depends on how one presides things.

[AlanC9]

That wasn't what I was talking about. You said that "Neither is Superior" (sic). Why is neither superior?

[masster blaster]

That wasn't what I was talking about. You said that "Neither is Superior" (sic). Why is neither superior?

Synthetics lack emotions. Without emotions they lack creativity, and rely more on logic. logic is based of facts that are presented to them. What they could do be harmful or not, errors could be made, there is no "perfection" in calculations all the time. Machines can make mistakes as can a organic. They can catch a virus just like an organic, can be controlled by individuals that are inferior to them, if they deem them so. What they consider weakness, could be their destruction, for an organic might exploit it. They look for answers, that despite their higher mathematics, and processing power, they still do not understand key elements of what makes an organic so special from their own and why organics do what they do. Synthetics can still die, they are not immortal.

 

For organics, emotions can be good, and bad. It may affect your judgments and beliefs in deciding moments, and lead others to pain, or happiness. Organics have to a purpose in life, for they wish to believe they are here for some reason. They can not live forever,  working together may be hard, and it may be not.  Organics can get sick, can only eat, or drink certain things. However organics that have resolve can out beat a synthetics logical assumption, for a synthetic can only predict how far an organic can go based on calculations alone, and not the heart/will power the organic has.

[tg0618]

At first I was mad about the endings. Then they did the EC, I was still peeved, but not as much. Now, after so long, I don't even care anymore really. I still think that ME3 (the whole trilogy, if I'm to be honest) is a really good game. So yeah, I'm over it. In fact I'm doing another play-through of it right now. And I'm looking forward to ME4 or Next, or whatever the hell people want to call it.

[shodiswe]

Except that they can't work together for an extended period time. Inherent in their nature.

The same could be said for humans, just look at Bosnia, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Rwanda. Lot's of examples.
Conflict is part of life, so is cooperation.

Just because conflicts can happen it doesn't mean it's the only thing that can and will happen or that it's the final and ultimate state of things.

Saying that Synthetics can't coexist because they "can" get into a conflict with non-Synthetics is like saying Jews can't coexist with other people because they get into conflict with other people, it seems like a racist sentiment. If you can't expect Organicbeings to never ever ever get into conflicts with eachother, why should Synthetics be held to a different standard?

The Reapers were optimised to be Reaepr controled, the Citadel and the Catalyst however arn't, the Catalyst is trapped on the Citadel, it's home, where it was created, a dwelling it can't control due to design.

[Dubozz]

Peace? No. ME3 ending is a bad joke and it has ruined the game for me. 

[Farangbaa]

The same could be said for humans, just look at Bosnia, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Rwanda. Lot's of examples.
Conflict is part of life, so is cooperation.

Just because conflicts can happen it doesn't mean it's the only thing that can and will happen or that it's the final and ultimate state of things.

Saying that Synthetics can't coexist because they "can" get into a conflict with non-Synthetics is like saying Jews can't coexist with other people because they get into conflict with other people, it seems like a racist sentiment. If you can't expect Organicbeings to never ever ever get into conflicts with eachother, why should Synthetics be held to a different standard?

The Reapers were optimised to be Reaepr controled, the Citadel and the Catalyst however arn't, the Catalyst is trapped on the Citadel, it's home, where it was created, a dwelling it can't control due to design.

 

Except that this conflict is always devastating. Again:

 

EDI awakes --> Every soldier on Luna dies (everyone within her power to kill)

Geth awake --> 99% of the Quarians die.

Metacon war --> would've been fought to extinction had the Reapers not intervened. (the extinction of the synthetics, in this case)

 

The Catalyst want's to save all life, both organic and synthetic.

 

And stop saying that it's a chance that the conflict will happen; it's not. Every instance we know of in the MEU of AI ended in at least the (near) annihiliation of it's creators or otherwise everything within the reach of the Synthetics. 

 

For the rest, I'm at work. I don't have time for huge post, so ead my earlier post on the previous page about the conflict.

 

-all organics will create synthetics. This is the nature of organic life.

-conflict will follow, cause organics will try to control their creations, or destroy them (again, this happens in every instance of AI in the game, except the Catalyst itself, who seizes control of his Creators. This is still a conflict though)

-the initial conflict is created vs creators, but by nature it is also always organic vs synthetic. Only one of the participants has to decide that organic = creators or created = synthetics (which is 100% true in every case btw, by nature of the conflict), and the conflict will escalate.

-in the case conflict for whatever reason doesn't occur, it does not solve the problem. In the case lasting peace is achieved, the problem is not solved. See the first point.

 

There is only one counterexample in the game: the Zha'til (organic race of the Zha combined with symbiotic AI tech). But they were perfect symbionts, only corrupted by Reaper involvement. The Zha reached Synthesis on their own. There was no created vs creator conflict here because the created = creators. This is what synthetis tries to achieve for the entire galaxy.

 

And this took way too much time

[shodiswe]

Except that this conflict is always devastating. Again:
 
EDI awakes --> Every soldier on Luna dies (everyone within her power to kill)
Geth awake --> 99% of the Quarians die.
Metacon war --> would've been fought to extinction had the Reapers not intervened. (the extinction of the synthetics, in this case)
 
The Catalyst want's to save all life, but organic and synthetic.
 
And stop saying that it's a chance that the conflict will happen; it's not. Every instance we know of in the MEU of AI ended in at least the (near) annihiliation of it's creators or otherwise everything within the reach of the Synthetics. 
 
For the rest, I'm at work. I don't have time for huge post, so ead my earlier post on the previous page about the conflict.
 
-all organics will create synthetics. This is the nature of organic life.
-conflict will follow, cause organics will try to control their creations, or destroy them (again, this happens in every instance of AI in the game, except the Catalyst itself, who seizes control of his Creators. This is still a conflict though)
-the initial conflict is created vs creators, but by nature it is also always organic vs synthetic. Only one of the participants has to decide that organic = creators or created = synthetics (which is 100% true in every case btw, by nature of the conflict), and the conflict will escalate.
-in the case conflict for whatever reason doesn't occur, it does not solve the problem. In the case lasting peace is achieved, the problem is not solved. See the first point.
 
There is only one counterexample in the game: the Zha'til (organic race of the Zha combined with symbiotic AI tech). But they were perfect symbionts, only corrupted by Reaper involvement. The Zha reached Synthesis on their own. There was no created vs creator conflict here because the created = creators. This is what synthetis tries to achieve for the entire galaxy.
 
And this took way too much time

The Geth voke up and didn't hurt anyone, until they wern't actualy given a choice. They asked philosophical questions about life, religion, souls. Which lead the Quarians totry and kill them. Then the Geth begged them to stop, the Quarians didn't stop they just silenced them and started shuttign them down by destroying platforms and servers physicaly.


EDI awakes --> Every soldier on Luna dies (everyone within her power to kill)

Geth awake --> the Quarians attacked them. --> The Geth asked them why and begged the to stop. --> The Quarians ignored them and keept killign them.

Metacon war --> would've been fought to extinction had the Reapers not intervened. (the extinction of the synthetics, in this case)
The Protean Emprie arrived and demanded their obedience and integration into the empire, the halfsynthetic zha'til resisted, war broke out(This was the toughest war the Proteans had fought, their only way of defeating the zha'til was to destroy their homesystems sun. Many others had tried to resist the Protean empire, all failed, until the Reapers came and harvested them.
The Proteans forbid all other species from using spacetravel, they would only be allowed to travel from worklocations(work camps) on Protean ships.
Other species who resisted the Proteans were either rendered extinct or bullied down so hard they would never resist again. I wouldn't hold it against anyone if they tried to resist getting conquered by the Protean Empire.

I do not agree with your idea that the Catalyst is actualy right.

[Farangbaa]

The Geth voke up and didn't hurt anyone, until they wern't actualy given a choice. They asked philosophical questions about life, religion, souls. Which lead the Quarians totry and kill them. Then the Geth begged them to stop, the Quarians didn't stop they just silenced them and started shuttign them down by destroying platforms and servers physicaly.


EDI awakes --> Every soldier on Luna dies (everyone within her power to kill)

Geth awake --> the Quarians attacked them. --> The Geth asked them why and begged the to stop. --> The Quarians ignored them and keept killign them.

Metacon war --> would've been fought to extinction had the Reapers not intervened. (the extinction of the synthetics, in this case)
The Protean Emprie arrived and demanded their obedience and integration into the empire, the halfsynthetic zha'til resisted, war broke out(This was the toughest war the Proteans had fought, their only way of defeating the zha'til was to destroy their homesystems sun. Many others had tried to resist the Protean empire, all failed, until the Reapers came and harvested them.
The Proteans forbid all other species from using spacetravel, they would only be allowed to travel from worklocations(work camps) on Protean ships.

I do not agree with your idea that the Catalyst is actualy right.

 

The Zha'til are not the synthetics of the Metacon War. The synthetics of the Metacon War are unnamed.

 

The reason for the conflict between the Geth and the Quarians are irrelevant:

 

-all organics will create synthetics. This is the nature of organic life.

-conflict will follow, cause organics will try to control their creations, or destroy them (again, this happens in every instance of AI in the game, except the Catalyst itself, who seizes control of his Creators. This is still the same conflict though)

 

Which is exactly what happened between the Geth and the Quarians.

 

This is not a discussion about right or wrong on behalf of the Organics/Creators or the Sythetics/Created. This is not about morality or ethics. This is clinical dissection of what's happening in the MEU over and over. 

 

p.s. the blame lies with no one. The way the Catalyst explains it it seems that the Synthetics are the enemy cause it says Synthetics will destroy Organics. It says this because the Synthetics are the most likely victors, not because it's their fault.

[shodiswe]

They are not unnamed, the Proteans oponents of the metacon war were the zha'til, a half synthetic half organic species who put up one hell of a fight when the Proteans tried to subjugate them. Eventualy rather than loosing the Proteans decided to blow up the sun of the zha'til homeworld. Both to win in a sense and to show any other would be rebells that they can't win against the might of the Protean Empire. Then that's where the Reapers showed up and began their harvest before the remaining fighting had died off.

As enemies of the Empire Javik hate and loath them, Protean Propaganda told him they were enemies and he was a soldier, breed to kill the enemies of the empire.

That's Javiks story, he tells it from his perspective, keep in mind that it's the story of the Empire. Just as the Quarians story is the story of the Quarians.

[Farangbaa]

They are not unnamed, the Proteans oponents of the metacon war were the zha'til, a half synthetic half organic species who put up one hell of a fight when the Proteans tried to subjugate them. Eventualy rather than loosing the Proteans decided to blow up the sun of the zha'til homeworld. Both to win in a sense and to show any other would be rebells that they can't win against the might of the Protean Empire. Then that's where the Reapers showed up and began their harvest before the remaining fighting had died off.

As enemies of the Empire Javik hate and loath them, Protean Propaganda told him they were enemies and he was a soldier, breed to kill the enemies of the empire.

That's Javiks story, he tells it from his perspective, keep in mind that it's the story of the Empire.

 

No, they were not. If you're going to headcanon everything, I'm done with you

 

Zha'til

The zha'til were a synthetic race that existed at the time of the Protheans. They originated when a race known as the zha implanted themselves with symbiotic AI technology to enhance their intelligence in order to survive as their homeworld became inhospitable. When the Reapers arrived, they subjugated the AIs, known as zha'til, who then seized control of the bodies of their masters and altered their genetic material at the deepest level, transforming the zha into synthetic monsters and their offspring into slaves. The zha'til proceeded to multiply into "mechanical swarms" that "blotted out the sky". With no other recourse, the Protheans sent the star of the zha's home system into supernova, destroying the zha'til entirely.

 

There is no war between the Zha'til and Protheans before the Reapers arive. The Metacon war predates the arrival of the Reapers in the Prothean cycle

 

Early in their development, the Protheans encountered a hostile machine intelligence which threatened to overwhelm them. To defeat the machines, the Protheans decided to unite all of the galaxy's sentient organic life under their empire. The other organic races were free to resist, but those that tried were crushed, and none ever managed to best the Protheans' might. In time, each of the subjugated races assimilated into Prothean culture and came to think of themselves as Prothean. United under a single cause, the Prothean Empire successfully held off the enemy machines in a conflict known as the "Metacon War".

 

The race of the Metacon war even predates unification of the Prothean empire.

[KaiserShep]

That's Javiks story, he tells it from his perspective, keep in mind that it's the story of the Empire. Just as the Quarians story is the story of the Quarians.

 

When Javik talks about the Metacon war, he only says that they were turning the tide, until the reapers invaded. Later, if you take him on the dreadnought, he will mention how the zha'til were hijacked by the reapers much like the geth were.

[shodiswe]

@Psychevore

So, it's a war that lasted for tens of thousands of years? From the birth of the Protean Empire to it's fall.

The Proteans subjugated everyone else, but they failed to subjugate the Zah'til until milenia later when the Reaper attacked.

Biowares storytellign never ceases to surprise me...

https://www.youtube....5K1id-kKw#t=851

The war caused the "unification" but the war didn't even end before the Reapers attacked.. Millenia later...

Maybe that was possible because the Zah'til didn't push, but satisfied themselves with defending themselves until the Reapers attacked and changed the Zah'til to turn them into shocktroops.

We don't know if they turned them like they turned the Geth or if they turned them like they turned the Batarians. It likely would have seemed like the same thign to Proteans who had been at war with them for thousands of years.

I don't know how long the Protean Empire existed before the Reapers arrived, but from the lore I read long ago I seem to recall it lasted for a fairly long time.

From the Wiki:
It is unknown precisely when Prothean civilization arose and how long it persisted, but one of their communication devices discovered on the planet Fehl Prime has been dated to as early as 68,000 BCE.

The Protheans' belief that they could hold their own against machine intelligence was shattered with the arrival of the Reapers in approximately 48,000 BCE,

so... 20 000 years+?

I'm not head cannoning it, Javik says it himself, they encoutered them early, they realised they couldn't defeat them, so they instead conquered others. The Zah'til couldn't be defeated by the strength of the Proteans alone, still they could afford attacking other species and wage war on several frons... Why? The Zah'til didn't atempt any serious expansion other than refusing to serve the Empire?
Then the Reapers arrival after 20 000 years of trying to conquer the Zah'til, the arrival made the Zah'til far more agressive and the Proteans got desperate.

It's not, my head cannon, it's Biowares writing. If you got a problem with it, point your finger at Bioware.

[AlanC9]

@From the Wiki:It is unknown precisely when Prothean civilization arose and how long it persisted, but one of their communication devices discovered on the planet Fehl Prime has been dated to as early as 68,000 BCE.

Any idea what the source for that is? Paragon Lost, maybe?