Aller au contenu

Photo

Are you at peace with ME3?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
1005 réponses à ce sujet

#126
Farangbaa

Farangbaa
  • Members
  • 6 757 messages

@Psychevore

So, it's a war that lasted for tens of thousands of years? From the birth of the Protean Empire to it's fall.

The Proteans subjugated everyone else, but they failed to subjugate the Zah'til until milenia later when the Reaper attacked.

Biowares storytellign never ceases to surprise me...

https://www.youtube....5K1id-kKw#t=851

The war caused the "unification" but the war didn't even end before the Reapers attacked.. Millenia later...

Maybe that was possible because the Zah'til didn't push, but satisfied themselves with defending themselves until the Reapers attacked and changed the Zah'til to turn them into shocktroops.

We don't know if they turned them like they turned the Geth or if they turned them like they turned the Batarians. It likely would have seemed like the same thign to Proteans who had been at war with them for thousands of years.

I don't know how long the Protean Empire existed before the Reapers arrived, but from the lore I read long ago I seem to recall it lasted for a fairly long time.

From the Wiki:
It is unknown precisely when Prothean civilization arose and how long it persisted, but one of their communication devices discovered on the planet Fehl Prime has been dated to as early as 68,000 BCE.

The Protheans' belief that they could hold their own against machine intelligence was shattered with the arrival of the Reapers in approximately 48,000 BCE,

so... 20 000 years+?

I'm not head cannoning it, Javik says it himself, they encoutered them early, they realised they couldn't defeat them, so they instead conquered others. The Zah'til couldn't be defeated by the strength of the Proteans alone, still they could afford attacking other species and wage war on several frons... Why? The Zah'til didn't atempt any serious expansion other than refusing to serve the Empire?
Then the Reapers arrival after 20 000 years of trying to conquer the Zah'til, the arrival made the Zah'til far more agressive and the Proteans got desperate.

It's not, my head cannon, it's Biowares writing. If you got a problem with it, point your finger at Bioware.

 

You are headcanoning it. The Protheans were not at war with the Zha'til until the Reapers came.

 

The Metacon War was with with other Synthetic life, which do not get a name in the game. (the Zha'til aren't true synthetics btw, they are symbionts)

 

That video you posted is all fine and dandy, but there's no mention of the Zha'til. The Zha'til are mentioned at a different time in the game, and they were only turned against the Protheans after the Reapers came and subjugated their symbiotic AI.

 

Again:

 

Zha'til:

 

The zha'til were a synthetic race that existed at the time of the Protheans. They originated when a race known as the zha implanted themselves with symbiotic AI technology to enhance their intelligence in order to survive as their homeworld became inhospitable. When the Reapers arrived, they subjugated the AIs, known as zha'til, who then seized control of the bodies of their masters and altered their genetic material at the deepest level, transforming the zha into synthetic monsters and their offspring into slaves. The zha'til proceeded to multiply into "mechanical swarms" that "blotted out the sky". With no other recourse, the Protheans sent the star of the zha's home system into supernova, destroying the zha'til entirely.

 

Not a single mention of war with the Protheans until the Reapers arive.

 

Metacon war:

 

Early in their development, the Protheans encountered a hostile machine intelligence which threatened to overwhelm them. To defeat the machines, the Protheans decided to unite all of the galaxy's sentient organic life under their empire. The other organic races were free to resist, but those that tried were crushed, and none ever managed to best the Protheans' might. In time, each of the subjugated races assimilated into Prothean culture and came to think of themselves as Prothean. United under a single cause, the Prothean Empire successfully held off the enemy machines in a conflict known as the "Metacon War"

 



#127
shodiswe

shodiswe
  • Members
  • 4 999 messages

Any idea what the source for that is? Paragon Lost, maybe?


Seems like it, also, it has been sugested the Proteans had more time to expand and grow bigger than the current cycle. Their empire grew larger.

I'm guessing they expanded, hit the Zah'til, took a break when they realized they wern't winning, then attacked some other people trying to grow their empire strigner before they could get back to hitting the Zah'til again.

#128
shodiswe

shodiswe
  • Members
  • 4 999 messages

Metacon war:


Early in their development, the Protheans encountered a hostile machine intelligence which threatened to overwhelm them. To defeat the machines, the Protheans decided to unite all of the galaxy's sentient organic life under their empire. The other organic races were free to resist, but those that tried were crushed, and none ever managed to best the Protheans' might. In time, each of the subjugated races assimilated into Prothean culture and came to think of themselves as Prothean. United under a single cause, the Prothean Empire successfully held off the enemy machines in a conflict known as the "Metacon War" we were turning the tide, until the Reapers arrived.

They hadn't won the war, just turn the tide in their favor, then the Reapers arrived. You are cutting out important parts of the story being told to justify your own headcannon. After the Reapers arrived the Proteans were at war with the Reapers and whatever husks they enslaved.

They had only turned the tide of their war, they hadn't won it yet. Then the Reapers arrived.

 

Otherwise he would have said that they defeated them, but then the Reapers arrived.

 

Having Javik tell you the story is as cannon as it gets, least til you find a Zah'til to tell you their side if the story. I don't think the Proteans think a fight is over until the otherside is either exterminated or subservient or they themselves has been subjugated or annihilated.



#129
Reorte

Reorte
  • Members
  • 6 594 messages

Synthetics lack emotions. Without emotions they lack creativity, and rely more on logic.

Emotions are the thing that give you drive to do anything. Without emotions synthetics won't even bother to do more than whatever basic hardcoded programming they have that they can't override.

#130
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 635 messages

Emotions are the thing that give you drive to do anything. Without emotions synthetics won't even bother to do more than whatever basic hardcoded programming they have that they can't override.

 

OK, so what are the geth's "emotions"? Quotes because whatever they have that does this job probably wouldn't be thought of as an emotion by most folks, though I don't have any problem with expanding the definition of emotion to include more stuff.



#131
Farangbaa

Farangbaa
  • Members
  • 6 757 messages

Metacon war:


Early in their development, the Protheans encountered a hostile machine intelligence which threatened to overwhelm them. To defeat the machines, the Protheans decided to unite all of the galaxy's sentient organic life under their empire. The other organic races were free to resist, but those that tried were crushed, and none ever managed to best the Protheans' might. In time, each of the subjugated races assimilated into Prothean culture and came to think of themselves as Prothean. United under a single cause, the Prothean Empire successfully held off the enemy machines in a conflict known as the "Metacon War" we were turning the tide, until the Reapers arrived.

They hadn't won the war, just turn the tide in their favor, then the Reapers arrived. You are cutting out important parts of the story being told to justify your own headcannon. After the Reapers arrived the Proteans were at war with the Reapers and whatever husks they enslaved.

They had only turned the tide of their war, they hadn't won it yet. Then the Reapers arrived.

 

Otherwise he would have said that they defeated them, but then the Reapers arrived.

 

Having Javik tell you the story is as cannon as it gets, least til you find a Zah'til to tell you their side if the story. I don't think the Proteans think a fight is over until the otherside is either exterminated or subservient or they themselves has been subjugated or annihilated.

 

I'm done with you.



#132
von uber

von uber
  • Members
  • 5 521 messages

I'm done with you.


Don't blame you; it's Spain vs Holland in 50 mins :D
  • Farangbaa et KaiserShep aiment ceci

#133
shodiswe

shodiswe
  • Members
  • 4 999 messages

I'm done with you.


It's his own words, you got the video right there. /shrugh
I guess you're in denial. Some people really can't stand being wrong.

#134
Reorte

Reorte
  • Members
  • 6 594 messages

OK, so what are the geth's "emotions"? Quotes because whatever they have that does this job probably wouldn't be thought of as an emotion by most folks, though I don't have any problem with expanding the definition of emotion to include more stuff.

They clearly have drives to do more than sit there doing nothing. A completely emotionless entity wouldn't care if it existed or not, wouldn't care if it live or died. The most it might possibly do is react at a very basic level to immediate stimuli that it has little or no control over, like a sunflower following the sun. Emotions are anything that provide motivation and result in any actions beyond the most basic mechanical ones. The geth clearly don't want to die. That's emotion.

#135
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 297 messages

OK, so what are the geth's "emotions"? Quotes because whatever they have that does this job probably wouldn't be thought of as an emotion by most folks, though I don't have any problem with expanding the definition of emotion to include more stuff.

 

What we think of as emotions are chemical reactions in our brains.  Obviously, a geth would not have such a reaction.  But they do have something, as they do ponder their purpose and the nature of their existence "We are created life.  We are a philosophical question"



#136
KaiserShep

KaiserShep
  • Members
  • 23 823 messages

They clearly have drives to do more than sit there doing nothing. A completely emotionless entity wouldn't care if it existed or not, wouldn't care if it live or died. The most it might possibly do is react at a very basic level to immediate stimuli that it has little or no control over, like a sunflower following the sun. Emotions are anything that provide motivation and result in any actions beyond the most basic mechanical ones. The geth clearly don't want to die. That's emotion.


I sincerely doubt that cockroaches are emotionally invested in their own survival when they flee after you flip the light switch.

#137
dlux

dlux
  • Members
  • 1 003 messages

I control the Citadel, but I can't trigger the integrated mass relay.

I made synthetics to kill you, so you won't get killed by synthetics.

 

....I've accepted it, but I don't think i'll ever be at peace with ME3. Still looking foward to ME4 though.



#138
Dale

Dale
  • Members
  • 278 messages

Since Shep is in the RESURRECTION business -- why not the 2nd time?   Then, let's do mass relays between galaxies -- to see what "solutions" are underway there.

 

As mentioned in my other post (why I like ME2 the best) was a list of things that IMHEO make a game great.   Some were character building, trust, comrade, honor, humor, surprises, tough challenges, and finally a "yes, we did it!" finale.   In some games the "yes, I did it" finale.   What the heck in ME3?   A funeral?   No wonder we are all pissed.   Aside from that -- what I was REALLY looking forward to in ME3 was seeing the Illusive Man royally hang himself.   Instead he just got "controlled".  Any wonder I played ME1 6x, ME2 9x and ME3 1x. 



#139
dreamgazer

dreamgazer
  • Members
  • 15 742 messages

Aside from that -- what I was REALLY looking forward to in ME3 was seeing the Illusive Man royally hang himself.   Instead he just got "controlled".


I'd say getting the bulk of Cerberus indoctrinated and shooting himself Saren-style at the end (or straight-up getting shot) is a good definition of royally hanging oneself.

#140
Alan Rickman

Alan Rickman
  • Members
  • 2 186 messages

Why wouldn't I be at peace with it? It's a great game. Always was.


  • Cheviot, Grieving Natashina, TheViper8234 et 1 autre aiment ceci

#141
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 635 messages

Since Shep is in the RESURRECTION business -- why not the 2nd time?   Then, let's do mass relays between galaxies -- to see what "solutions" are underway there.


More Shep? Eww.

#142
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 297 messages

More Shep? Eww.

Well, they opened the door with ME2...



#143
dreamgazer

dreamgazer
  • Members
  • 15 742 messages

Well, they opened the door with ME2...

 

Destroy = Lazarus 2.0.

Control = Rediscovery of the True Shepard in the Machine.

Synthesis = Recreation Through Networked Memories. 

 

But yeah, I'm on-board with leaving Shepard in the original trilogy. No baggage, new perspective. 



#144
Cheviot

Cheviot
  • Members
  • 1 484 messages

I was never at war with it.  Great game.  Just started playing it again, actually.

 

(Liked the endings too, by the way.) 


  • Rainbowhawk aime ceci

#145
wright1978

wright1978
  • Members
  • 8 114 messages
No I'm not at peace with. The wound from the train wreck ending is less raw that is all.
  • Iakus aime ceci

#146
BaladasDemnevanni

BaladasDemnevanni
  • Members
  • 2 127 messages

 

The point is that the Reapers have ALWAYS ever since the leviathan's time, have PROLONGED the conflict, but never actually asking where the problem went wrong. We made peace with the Geth, EDi proved her worth, and became a friend, as did Legion. There is no need to solve a problem that has already been solved at the end, thus it makes synthesis/control irrelevant for we already made peace with the synthetics. The Reapers have no more purpose. Conflict is bound to happen, but it is up to the future organics, and synthetics to preserve the peace for as long as they can.

 

This is another aspect that bothers me about the endings. The Catalyst brings the Organic-Synthetic conflict back to the forefront in the last fifteen minutes of the game, but fails to bring up any interesting questions for the player to consider.

 

The set-up of ME3's ending is eerily similar to Return of the Jedi, where Luke and the Emperor engage in a philosophical battle over Vader's soul, while fleets burn up in the background. With that kind of set-up, which ME3 looks to repeat, this should have been the time for the Catalyst and Shepard to engage in an actual argument/discussion about why Organics and Synthetics are bound to come into conflict, if only so that the Catalyst could make a decent effort of convincing Shepard that its actions are justified. Shepard bringing up the possibility of cooperation with synthetics or mentioning the possibility of organic-organic destruction. 

 

Instead, the Catalyst puts forth a controversial conclusion, offers up 3 insane solutions that don't really solve his problem, in addition to a number of other issues. 



#147
Reorte

Reorte
  • Members
  • 6 594 messages

I sincerely doubt that cockroaches are emotionally invested in their own survival when they flee after you flip the light switch.

Why? Very simple and basic emotion perhaps but still there. Where's the fundamental difference between what makes a cockroach flee something that frightens it and a dog flee something that frightens it?

#148
KaiserShep

KaiserShep
  • Members
  • 23 823 messages

Why? Very simple and basic emotion perhaps but still there. Where's the fundamental difference between what makes a cockroach flee something that frightens it and a dog flee something that frightens it?

Emotional response requires certain structures within the nervous system, which roaches and other invertebrates simply do not possess.



#149
Reorte

Reorte
  • Members
  • 6 594 messages

Emotional response requires certain structures within the nervous system, which roaches and other invertebrates simply do not possess.

For any emotion or just more than very basic, simple ones? Is not running away as a result of something startling you, like light, fear, which is an emotion? The counter-argument is that it's just a mechanical response to stimuli but then you could make exactly the same argument for human emotions, the mechanics are just much more complicated.

If we do draw a line between mechanical responses and something more complex (which to be honest is probably a reasonable thing to do, even though IMO there's a grey edge in there) then the simple responses aren't going to motivate anything to do more than they directly control. They certainly won't develop if that's all they've got ("detect enemy shooting at this unit, duck behind cover and return fire" being hardcoded in for example instead of something worked out) because they'll have no motivation to. I stand by my point that moving beyond that requires motivation, which requires emotion of the sort that we both agree is emotion. Even then emotion isn't all that's required (plenty of animals unarguably do possess emotions after all).

#150
ioannisdenton

ioannisdenton
  • Members
  • 2 232 messages

After EC i was.
Ater leviathan omega AND AWESOME CITADEL i fell in love again.


  • TheViper8234 et Rainbowhawk aiment ceci