287 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Forgetting about the concept of shackled vs. unshackled AI? 

 

Shackling only limits what an AI has access to, not its personality or what it cares about.

[SwobyJ]

There are AIs even in Council space.  They're shackled, and mainly used for research purposes.  But they are there.

 

And the Catalyst overlooking them and really meaning "all synthetic life with Reaper parts"  is, again, really really bad writing.

 

Especially when the Catalyst adds that "Even you are partly synthetic" bit.

 

Those AIs would be included then. At least in a Vaporize/Low result. Dunno about High. For sure, Breath Destroy kept away from synthetic implants near the original wave.

 

All we get from it is that it is a refinement, the better made the Crucible is and how well it is protected.

 

 

 

EDIT: You know, this kinda stuff is probably what Bioware wanted us to imagine and discuss about in the original ending, not complain at them for. What IS synthetic life? What IS Reaper (Old Machine)? What IS control? You know, like we just experienced science fiction that almost never fully explains everything, because it is still fiction.

[dreamgazer]

Shackling only limits what an AI has access to, not its personality or what it cares about.

 

It still has original programming, and shackling also limits its ability to just shrug off its responsibilities. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Again, I don't buy the "Reaper code" argument with Destroy. Geth have Reaper-tech in software only, and EDI has it in hardware only. Targeting software makes sense but then EDI should not die. Targeting hardware is silly but if that's what it did then the geth should live.

 

 

I stick with the idea that it's a "Reset to Factory Defaults"-wave (at High EMS): it affects all tech, but vital things like the Normandy computers can be restored without too much problem. However, it kills all AI by setting their memory/brain back to 0.

[dreamgazer]

 Again, I don't buy the "Reaper code" argument with Destroy. Geth have Reaper-tech in software only, and EDI has it in hardware only. Targeting software makes sense but then EDI should not die. Targeting hardware is silly but if that's what it did then the geth should live.

 

And again, I see no reason why the Crucible wouldn't target both hardware and software that reflects Reaper signatures. 

[SwobyJ]

Heh, maybe the Catalyst was bluffing, since Shepard's survival indicates that the implants were still functioning anyway. No one cares about the virtual aliens though.

 

The implication is that the higher your EMS, the better protected the Crucible is (so it won't go haywire and hit synthetic stuff that isn't 'life'), and the better made and upgraded the Crucible is in fulfilling its blueprint, but also going beyond the original blueprints of previous cycles.

 

'Life' would probably also be determined by engineers and scientists and AI themselves. Obviously, Upgraded Geth working on the Crucible would include themselves as being alive. (So yeah they kinda set up their own demise with Destroy, maybe)

[KaiserShep]

 Again, I don't buy the "Reaper code" argument with Destroy. Geth have Reaper-tech in software only, and EDI has it in hardware only. Targeting software makes sense but then EDI should not die. Targeting hardware is silly but if that's what it did then the geth should live.

 

 

I stick with the idea that it's a "Reset to Factory Defaults"-wave (at High EMS): it affects all tech, but vital things like the Normandy computers can be restored without too much problem. However, it kills all AI by setting their memory/brain back to 0.

 

I'm actually inclined to agree that the reaper code thing is simply a fan-made theory, rather than something that's actually spelled out in the game. Of course, it could be more than coincidence that in the end, the most prominent AI's in the story are both comprised partially of reaper goodness to some capacity, but I think your idea of resetting everything works a bit better.

[SwobyJ]

 Again, I don't buy the "Reaper code" argument with Destroy. Geth have Reaper-tech in software only, and EDI has it in hardware only. Targeting software makes sense but then EDI should not die. Targeting hardware is silly but if that's what it did then the geth should live.

 

 

I stick with the idea that it's a "Reset to Factory Defaults"-wave (at High EMS): it affects all tech, but vital things like the Normandy computers can be restored without too much problem. However, it kills all AI by setting their memory/brain back to 0.

 

Its a giant computer. It can distinguish hardware and software, as long as it is a good enough computer to do so.

 

Reapers are both Reaper in hardware and software. So yeah, a wave has to hit both of those things. Synthetic (hardware)-Life (software).

 

The collateral damage is stuff like the Geth, but also all AIs and we just have to guess about VIs, I suppose.

 

 

I think all Destroy endings at least somewhat affect all tech, but much of it is easy to set up again, so I agree with you there. It isn't enough to, say, have all the ships around Earth drifting for long, but maybe enough to mess up systems for a few seconds or minutes.

 

A Vaporize Destroy ending probably wrecked ships, on top of much of Earth.

 

It does destroy hardware, but it has to figure out if that hardware is of 'synthetic' nature or not. Ideally, this does NOT include implants. The goal is synthetic-life. Not life. Not synthetic. Not misc material.

So there has to be a smart enough computer to distinguish this. Because EDI is Reaper hardware, it won't distinguish for her. Because the Geth are Reaper software, it won't distinguish for them. Reaper-stuff is what it is ideally set for. High EMS. Earth itself is razed when there isn't good enough 'calibrations'. Maybe because there's SO MUCH tech sitting around that place, and all planets.

 

But the High versions are pretty refined, for the most part. High Destroy. High Control (even if the Geth get Controlled, for all we know, Shepalyst releases control of them).

 

Synthesis and Breath Destroy are just the most refined (and at least partially High Control). They target things much more specifically, because the Crucible is refined enough to understand what WE would/might consider to be 'synthetic', 'Reaper', 'organic', and 'life'.

 

~~~

 

Of course the decisions themselves don't seem to make sense because they're still so damn universal. IT or no IT, the ending very well may be a simulated hallucination so that the Catalyst can speak to a dying Shepard and let him make his choice about how the Crucible will act (the Catalyst would have restrictions to not be able to act by itself).

 

Shepard is very black/white compared to ..so, so many other characters, so the choices reflect that. Does he see the world down the barrel of a gun? Does he think that controlling the Reapers is possible, for a better way? Does he think peace is possible, does he have the hope for that? Ya know - high level stuff.

 

But no. You totally shoot a tube. lol

[NM_Che56]

Depends on whether some ships use AIs for any of their functions (there are other, regulated AIs out there, after all, whether it an discriminate between a VI and an AI, how extensive quarian cybernetics are, etc.

 

Heck, by all rights, biotics should be having a very bad day, given they have cybernetics built into their brains and nervous systems.  But hey, space magic, amirite?

 

 

I guess that's where this whole notion of "life" comes into play.  Are all AI's "Synthetic life", or do they have to cross some threshold? 

 

I don't know if the implants used by biotics or other cybernetic implants are "AI" or just hardware.  I would suppose the latter, since I don't think the implants are "self aware".  

 

Assuming they were affected by the blast, I would imagine that the ships using AI wouldn't be crippled (no pun intended, Joker), but would have to rely on more manual means of control.  The crews of these ships would probably have to triage functionality of the ship and focus on flight critical features.

[SwobyJ]

I'm actually inclined to agree that the reaper code thing is simply a fan-made theory, rather than something that's actually spelled out in the game. Of course, it could be more than coincidence that in the end, the most prominent AI's in the story are both comprised partially of reaper goodness to some capacity, but I think your idea of resetting everything works a bit better.

 

I never thought that Reaper Code was all that gets affected.

 

I do think that it's a damn good baseline for any engineer to work off of. But it then gets subjective, and you need a better machine/computer that can determine 'what is Reaper'?

 

To a very Renegade player, sure, Reaper = giant destroying machine.

 

But we can - in the main story and in tons of optional material - understand Reaper as Old Machine with unique code. And then understand it as really just an old machine with code. We can see cases of Reaper hardware gradually becoming more like Reaper software. And Reaper software gradually becoming more like Reaper hardware.

 

So Reaper is just a name. It really just code. The Geth, and EDI, and all other AI all have the potential to become Reaper-like. But it is that 'Reaper' state that is probably easier to work off of, if the intent is the destroy the Reapers

[Iakus]

Those AIs would be included then. At least in a Vaporize/Low result. Dunno about High. For sure, Breath Destroy kept away from synthetic implants near the original wave.

 

All we get from it is that it is a refinement, the better made the Crucible is and how well it is protected.

 

 

 

EDIT: You know, this kinda stuff is probably what Bioware wanted us to imagine and discuss about in the original ending, not complain at them for. What IS synthetic life? What IS Reaper (Old Machine)? What IS control? You know, like we just experienced science fiction that almost never fully explains everything, because it is still fiction.

And again, this isn't specified, evenin the so-called "clarity and closure" of EC.  It specifically says "all synthetic life", and even Shepard is at risk.

 

There is not a hint of "All synthetic life, except X"

 

What Bioware seemed intent on having us experience was Space Magic at its worst.  Railroaded themes, forced sacrifice, all for some nightmarish "solution" to a "problem" they failed to even show us exists.  to the point where we get these laughably incompentent "apex species" to somehow explain teh Reaper origins.

[Iakus]

It still has original programming, and shackling also limits its ability to just shrug off its responsibilities. 

 

but doesn't shrug off it's ability to explain it's capabilities and limitations

[SwobyJ]

I guess that's where this whole notion of "life" comes into play.  Are all AI's "Synthetic life", or do they have to cross some threshold? 

 

I don't know if the implants used by biotics or other cybernetic implants are "AI" or just hardware.  I would suppose the latter, since I don't think the implants are "self aware".  

 

Assuming they were affected by the blast, I would imagine that the ships using AI wouldn't be crippled (no pun intended, Joker), but would have to rely on more manual means of control.  The crews of these ships would probably have to triage functionality of the ship and focus on flight critical features.

Yep exactly.

 

Joker did alright enough with the Normandy SR1, without EDI's assistance or control of the ship.

 

Just hope that no more Collectors (or worse!) pop out of nowhere

[Han Shot First]

It's an interesting question. At what point are you someone else? What about a soul, assuming you believe in such?

 

I suppose I'd view it similarly to a person who has had a traumatic brain injury and is suffering from amnesia, or who has undergone personality changes as a result. Obviously that person has changed in some ways, perhaps even drastically, but is still the same person.

[SwobyJ]

And again, this isn't specified, evenin the so-called "clarity and closure" of EC.  It specifically says "all synthetic life", and even Shepard is at risk.

 

There is not a hint of "All synthetic life, except X"

 

What Bioware seemed intent on having us experience was Space Magic at its worst.  Railroaded themes, forced sacrifice, all for some nightmarish "solution" to a "problem" they failed to even show us exists.  to the point where we get these laughably incompentent "apex species" to somehow explain teh Reaper origins.

 

No, it really is all synthetic life. It's just up to you to imagine what may constitute synthetic life.

 

To the highest order intelligences, anything beyond a pure organism may be synthetic. Put a machine in you, and that's synthetic.

 

So it has to be refined. The intent isn't to destroy Shepard's implants, but you do need a good enough machine that'll tell that Shepard's implants aren't 'alive'.

 

This is up to the Crucible's blueprint's creators, the current Cycle's Crucible creators, and Shepard himself (assuming this is his subconscious in any way).

[SwobyJ]

I suppose I'd view it similarly to a person who has had a traumatic brain injury and is suffering from amnesia, or who has undergone personality changes as a result. Obviously that person has changed in some ways, perhaps even drastically, but is still the same person.

 

http://en.wikipedia....fect_(medicine)

[KaiserShep]

Railroaded themes, forced sacrifice, all for some nightmarish "solution" to a "problem" they failed to even show us exists.

 

I guess that's one of the benefits of being a stubborn ass that will just insist that it's all bullsh*t and kill the reapers dead anyway, and spare one's self the nightmare of the alternatives with high-EMS Destroy.

[dreamgazer]

I guess that's one of the benefits of being a stubborn ass that will just insist that it's all bullsh*t and kill the reapers dead anyway, and spare one's self the nightmare in high-EMS Destroy.

 

Which is a perfectly valid frame of mind. 

[SwobyJ]

It's really freaking bizarre that for me being someone who prefers to not even perceive much/most/all of the trilogy as real, I can so easily (as far as I consider it to myself) grasp the literal perspective of the ending.

 

You'd think I'd be railing against it like so many ITers or others. But I can't.

[Iakus]

No, it really is all synthetic life. It's just up to you to imagine what may constitute synthetic life.

 

To the highest order intelligences, anything beyond a pure organism may be synthetic. Put a machine in you, and that's synthetic.

 

So it has to be refined. The intent isn't to destroy Shepard's implants, but you do need a good enough machine that'll tell that Shepard's implants aren't 'alive'.

 

This is up to the Crucible's blueprint's creators, the current Cycle's Crucible creators, and Shepard himself (assuming this is his subconscious in any way).

By that logic, Bioware deliberately hamstrung the player, refusing to allow the Crucible to be refined beyond a certain point no matter how many Assets you get or how high an EMS you have.

 

Which is also a douche move.

[Iakus]

I guess that's one of the benefits of being a stubborn ass that will just insist that it's all bullsh*t and kill the reapers dead anyway, and spare one's self the nightmare of the alternatives with high-EMS Destroy.

 

Sorry, I simply can't get behind IT.  I wish I could

[dreamgazer]

Sorry, I simply can't get behind IT.  I wish I could

 

That's not IT.  That's rejecting the Catalyst's premise and acknowledging that there are repercussions to doing so. 

[KaiserShep]

Hold on a second. I'd sooner promote cloning an army of Illusive Men before I promote that crackpot theory. I'm simply talking about the Catalyst's assertions and predictions of the future.

[KaiserShep]

It's really freaking bizarre that for me being someone who prefers to not even perceive much/most/all of the trilogy as real, I can so easily (as far as I consider it to myself) grasp the literal perspective of the ending.

 

You'd think I'd be railing against it like so many ITers or others. But I can't.

 

But it can't be literal. It can't! #MassEffectIsBiblical

[SwobyJ]

By that logic, Bioware deliberately hamstrung the player, refusing to allow the Crucible to be refined beyond a certain point no matter how many Assets you get or how high an EMS you have.

 

Which is also a douche move.

 

Its like it still a machine or something.

 

Wait, you're wanting *more* space magic? To get the happiest ending you can think of?