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[Uccio]

I actually started arguing this point with Origins and kept badgering them about it. If you want to do blood magic "right" given how it's portrayed in the game WORLD then taking the Blood Mage specialty should radically change your entire game. So you'd basically be making two games--the Blood Mage game and the Everyone Else game. This would put WAY too much mechanical emphasis on that ONE specialty. It would be the equivalent of having a game where you have classes called "everyman" and "titanus, destroyer of worlds". You just can't build a balanced game that way.
I am HOPING that they did it so that you can choose to use Blood Magic as a DECISION POINT via conversation and, yes, it has big consequences. THAT would be good design, particularly if they do those decision points in such a way that other classes/races/whatever have similarly large decision breakdowns. This would enable them to keep Blood Magic as something the PC has access to without the huge specialty imbalance. And without just making NPC's oblivious.

The problem with overpowering blood magic in lore is also present in npc blood mages. Every second apostate and runaway mage is a blood mage but yet they have not tore open the world nor have they conquered it. So either blood magic is not the big bad devs try to make it or they are doing a bad job showing it.

[godModeAlpha]

Looking at this image one can observe a mage using blood magic. Why do mages resort to blood magic so quickly?

[Fast Jimmy]

Looking at this image one can observe a mage using blood magic. Why do mages resort to blood magic so quickly?

Because fear is the mind killer.

[Uccio]

Looking at this image one can observe a mage using blood magic. Why do mages resort to blood magic so quickly?

Wouldn't you if you knew that bunch of templars are coming to kill you, and the only way to prevent them from nullifying your mage powers would be resorting to blood magic? I would.

[disgruntled-gamer]

Hey, any update on whether companions and the world around us will react to us using Blood Magic?  It was kind of strange in DA2 when I used blood magic and no one cared, especially when I was able to denounce it publicly!  

 

EDIT:  Do we even have blood magic this time round?

 

Yeah it was the same way in DAO this IMO is a lost opportunity.  I don’t know if it’s just because they don’t want to bother because it’s sub class specific or they just don’t know what to do with it.  Being a blood mage should take you down a whole nether path but it doesn’t and really devalues the whole Blood Magic concept.

[Vindicare175]

Just going to chime in that i do not think that Necromancer is taking the blood mage's spot as *evil* mage. Necromancer seems more akin to a grey area.

 

Necromancer tree's would relate to Spirit and Entropy (based off Dragon age origins tree's) those not both not blood magic correct , as for raising undead , Do necromancer's not just animate the dead and make it move/fight etc by there own will , not summoning demons to take over the body , I'm aware that where the veil is thin and corpses nearby , demons will posses them but that's not the same as a Necromancer just raising the dead up and controlling it via the Necromancers own will.

[siphernin]

Blood magic might be interfered with by the Inquisitor's power to close portals to the Fade. On the flip, demons technically don't need mortals as much to cross into the real world anymore with all the Portals.  Though, that might be me talking out the side of my face.  Honestly, if I see one more Hawke drive a staff through his/her torso and not just cut the hand... 

[PsychoBlonde]

DA's always been a little weak on this kind of thing. Morrigan might as well have been wearing an "APOSTATE!" sign around her neck, and nobody ever reacts to her. Mage Hawke too.

 

It's been a LOT weak on this thing.  This right here is the major reason for their total failure to portray mages as legitimately needing controls.  No matter how many whacked-out blood mages you run across, if the PC is a mage (and potentially a  blood mage) with ZERO consequences, your point is completely undercut.  Heck, you can get away with being a blood mage and also the Nicest Person In Thedas as the PC.

[PsychoBlonde]

The problem with overpowering blood magic in lore is also present in npc blood mages. Every second apostate and runaway mage is a blood mage but yet they have not tore open the world nor have they conquered it. So either blood magic is not the big bad devs try to make it or they are doing a bad job showing it.

 

 

Yes and no . . . the "overpowering" nature of blood magic historically doesn't result from a singular mage using their OWN blood but from MULTIPLE mages using the blood of THOUSANDS of murdered slaves.  Of course this doesn't do anything to explain why the mages who DO have access to and use slaves aren't much more serious threats than the Blood Mage Down The Street.  Heck, the nastiest mages in the game are those freakin' Saarebas with that lighting sphere thing they do.  The nominal "blood mages" tend to be pushovers by comparison.  Even when they DO summon a demon army.

[Kalamah]

Yes and no . . . the "overpowering" nature of blood magic historically doesn't result from a singular mage using their OWN blood but from MULTIPLE mages using the blood of THOUSANDS of murdered slaves.  Of course this doesn't do anything to explain why the mages who DO have access to and use slaves aren't much more serious threats than the Blood Mage Down The Street.  Heck, the nastiest mages in the game are those freakin' Saarebas with that lighting sphere thing they do.  The nominal "blood mages" tend to be pushovers by comparison.  Even when they DO summon a demon army.

Yeah. First thing that came to mind was that quest Meredith sends Hawke on to round up those blood mages. The elf guy arguably could have done a helluva lot more damage with the availability of the other alienage elves, but he didn't probably more for game/plot reasons than anything else. Most of the blood mages we encounter are close enough to if not actually Chaotic Evil as it is, which is tiresome on its own, but they're also rather terrible at strategy too and utilizing the available resources (namely NPCs).

 

I understand that for the purposes of the game a blood mage opponent shouldn't be able to seize control of the player's party even if we could to them as blood mages ourselves (or have Merrill do it), but we don't see the full potential for destruction that blood mages arguably ought to have, except perhaps during boss fights. And even then, Orsino was tacked on at the end and it shows in how he's difficult but not really even half as hard as the High Dragon earlier on (at least for me).

[PsychoBlonde]

Yeah. First thing that came to mind was that quest Meredith sends Hawke on to round up those blood mages. The elf guy arguably could have done a helluva lot more damage with the availability of the other alienage elves, but he didn't probably more for game/plot reasons than anything else. Most of the blood mages we encounter are close enough to if not actually Chaotic Evil as it is, which is tiresome on its own, but they're also rather terrible at strategy too and utilizing the available resources (namely NPCs).

 

I understand that for the purposes of the game a blood mage opponent shouldn't be able to seize control of the player's party even if we could to them as blood mages ourselves (or have Merrill do it), but we don't see the full potential for destruction that blood mages arguably ought to have, except perhaps during boss fights. And even then, Orsino was tacked on at the end and it shows in how he's difficult but not really even half as hard as the High Dragon earlier on (at least for me).

 

Orsino was easier than Meredith, and SHE'S NOT EVEN A MAGE, although you could argue that there are some similarities between using Red Lyrium and Blood Magic.  Wouldn't it be hilarious if the existence of Red Lyrium ultimately ends up dumping that whole "mages are dangerous" bit because hey, now ANYONE can use this stuff and go batshit and be dangerous!  (Actually, that'd be a good plot point and a neat subversion of what they've done so far in this realm).

I was thinking more of the bit where you go after Danarius's apprentice Hadriana who you FIND in a dungeon FULL OF MURDERED SLAVES and who has, supposedly, been PREPARING for you to show up . . . and she's still a joke.  I was expecting some kind of "BWAHAHAHA YOU CANNOT RESIST MY MAGIC!!!" scene where Fenris' special ability comes into play but no, it's just a straightforward fight just like hundreds of others in the game.  The only person in the game who directly uses the "all powerful" Blood Magic on you is Idunna and you manage to resist the order to kill yourself just fine no matter WHAT you're playing.  The only difference if you're playing a high-willpower character is that you manage to resist by NOT stabbing Idunna so you can get more info out of her . . . info you can find lying on the ground if you do kill her.  *sigh*

[Kalamah]

Orsino was easier than Meredith, and SHE'S NOT EVEN A MAGE, although you could argue that there are some similarities between using Red Lyrium and Blood Magic.  Wouldn't it be hilarious if the existence of Red Lyrium ultimately ends up dumping that whole "mages are dangerous" bit because hey, now ANYONE can use this stuff and go batshit and be dangerous!  (Actually, that'd be a good plot point and a neat subversion of what they've done so far in this realm).

I was thinking more of the bit where you go after Danarius's apprentice Hadriana who you FIND in a dungeon FULL OF MURDERED SLAVES and who has, supposedly, been PREPARING for you to show up . . . and she's still a joke.  I was expecting some kind of "BWAHAHAHA YOU CANNOT RESIST MY MAGIC!!!" scene where Fenris' special ability comes into play but no, it's just a straightforward fight just like hundreds of others in the game.  The only person in the game who directly uses the "all powerful" Blood Magic on you is Idunna and you manage to resist the order to kill yourself just fine no matter WHAT you're playing.  The only difference if you're playing a high-willpower character is that you manage to resist by NOT stabbing Idunna so you can get more info out of her . . . info you can find lying on the ground if you do kill her.  *sigh*

Yeah, this exactly. I mean, the first time I got to the end boss fights, I sat there going "...that's it?!" after I'd beaten them, because it was so easy at that point. In contrast, that **** High Dragon at the Bone Pit would've curbstomped me utterly had I not planned ahead and re-specced myself and Anders along with bringing my tanks. And it still killed off half my party, three times, before I beat the **** thing.  I may be a bit bitter about that still. 

 

But yeah, the blood mages in both games were really kinda... puny. It's all hyped up to be this super dangerous and bad*** thing... and then you beat them all fairly easily. Bit of a letdown, honestly. And really, while I've made Morrigan and even Wynne a blood mage, the latter when I'm feeling silly-evil, I never took it as a spec for my mage Wardens or Hawke's because as a spec it's not really as useful as the others, in my opinion. Sure, it has some nice perks, but it's not really all that special. *shrugs* I vastly prefer Force Mage/Spirit Healer for my mage Hawke's in terms of sheer usefulness for the mass mob fights.

[PsychoBlonde]

Another interesting factor is that some sort of subversion is pretty much the only way they have of successfully getting out of this mess they've made for themselves.  If they do decide to "drive home" the point that BLOOD MAGIC R BAD, due to the existence of the games to date and the way it was handled in those games (which cannot be changed or denied), it will either look like a retcon or that they're just being arbitrary jerks toward mages in order to force a conflict where there doesn't need to be one.  This is one of the reasons why I didn't like the Mass Effect series--the organic v. inorganic conflict was a forced, arbitrary conflict and they didn't ever subvert it, so you wound up with that godawful forced arbitrary meaningless 3-way choice at the end of it all.  It was DETECTABLY forced/arbitrary in ME1 and just became WORSE as the series went on.

 

So, I seriously hope they pull a subversion of some kind SOON in the Dragon Age series.  It doesn't have to COMPLETELY subvert EVERYTHING--this kind of thing can often wind up looking just as silly as a forced conflict--but it needs to shift the focus slightly away from Mage v. Templar, round 3, FIGHT!  Heck, many people have already stated they're getting tired of this issue being the Center of Everything so even a very mild subversion that leaves the issue mostly open would probably be a very good idea.

 

One possible subversion I thought of that would be really interesting, for instance, would be the discovery that the reason why the Qunari are so down on mages is because ALL Qunari are NATURAL mages and much of their cultural discipline is focused toward the end of teaching them NOT to use it.  A mage who USES magic, to them, is inherently a corrupt individual and not just someone who basically won (or lost, depending on your perspective) the Lottery of Life.  THAT'S an interesting new situation.  Does that mean that non-qunari mages lack discipline?  Is the way qunari access magic somehow different from the way humans and elves do it?  Does that make it reasonable to EXPECT mages just to NEVER USE MAGIC EVER and scorn them when they either refuse or fail to do so?  Lots of questions there, but the focus has shifted away from a flat "Mages, R They Dangerous, Y/N?"

[PsychoBlonde]

Or, here's another possible subversion:

 

The Fade was split off from the world as an attempt to control what used to be REALLY overwhelmingly powerful and dangerous magic of the dragons that used to "rule the world".  This action resulted in a build up of magical energy with no real outlet, a looming tidal wave of magic set to come crashing down on Thedas should the "barrier" ever weaken enough.  Demons and spirits are a side effect of this magical over-concentration, pools of magical potential that have developed a kind of sentience.

 

Mages, by using magic, relieve some of the pressure.  (Granted, they can also make too large of a hole and the easing becomes more like a geyser).  So, if you don't want to destroy the World As We Know It mages going around using magic are now a vital necessity.  Dangerous, sure, but they're also preventing the end of the world.  The reason why there are increasing number of increasingly powerful mages in Thedas is because the power build up in the Fade is becoming WAY too strong and the power is forcing its way out through the only outlet.  Demons are actually BENEFICIAL in this over-stressed situation because, although they cause destruction, they also act as major relief sources for the pressure.  The Templars and the Qunari are actually hastening the end of the world via their restrictive policies.

That could potentially be a really interesting one not just because "oh, mages are the good guys now" but because of a lot of ancillary questions.  Is any amount of magic use enough to do more than delay the inevitable?  Will further attempts to delay things just result in blood magic becoming more and more and more dangerous and causing untold destruction before the eventual collapse?  Is there a way to undo this without overrunning the entire world with magical destruction?  Is there any way to prepare for it?  Are the trapped "gods" really so powerful that they will take over the world if they're let loose?  Are mages now powerful enough due to the accumulation of power to give them a run for their money?  Can the "gods" be controlled by methods used to control mages?  Lots of stuff.

[Kalamah]

Clearly, we should both be hired to the writing team, if just because we actually think about this sort of stuff.   But more seriously, while I chafe at it, I can see why the writers and devs opted not to include these aspects of magic in general. But then they honestly should have put a little more planning-ahead thought into just what sort of magic Thedas has, and the limitations the game itself would impose on it, if just to avoid the very issues we're pointing out. It's one thing for things in the lore to not be fully explored, and another to hype up something even in-game and have it be underwhelming at best.

 

"Oh, hello there, blood mage #24601, time to die now, sorry."

 

I mean, on the one hand we can see the Mage-Templar thing as a metaphor, which is admittedly a large part of why I'm basically pro-mage by default, with the only exceptions being the ****ed Chaotic Evil blood mages everywhere. But even as a metaphor, it's ham-fisted and there are definitely times where I think the nuances were practically accidental, going beyond the time constraints in evidence in DA2's writing. Not to mention that the way it's handled in the big picture, let alone the individual cases, is very polarizing. I'd wager only a small minority of players can be truly undecided about which side to pick given how it's thrown in our faces which side we "should" take, at which point my contrarian nature takes over and I pull a Sten "No!" to that. 

 

Also, just gotta say, I really like your headcanons, PsychoBlonde.  Not just because they're very close to my own.

[PsychoBlonde]

Here's another one:

 

What if the Black City never was the "home of the Maker" but a prison used to contain godlike super-demons (or something similar) and when the Magisters visited they made a hole in that prison.  Not enough for the godlike super-demons to ESCAPE, but enough for those demons to take over the Magisters and empower them with a magical plague (darkspawn) that they can use to create an army, dig up the Old Gods, and corrupt/destroy those Old Gods.

 

Because, you see, the Old Gods are sleeping because they used their power to partially seal the hole that the Magisters made in the prison of the super-demons, first sending themselves deep underground so that their sleep could not be interrupted.  The darkspawn are digging them up and corrupting them at the behest of the super-demons in order to destroy the last thing that's preventing the super-demons from escaping from the Black City.

The Grey Wardens--who are semi-corrupted, after all--are AIDING in this attempt by killing the Archdemons in the only way Archdemons can be killed--by destroying their soul.  Hence why Flemeth pushed Morrigan into doing the Dark Ritual and thus preserving the (uncorrupted) soul of the Archdemon.  She may have been doing that for centuries, fighting the darkspawn in her own way and preserving the prison of the super-demons.

 

If you did the Ultimate Sacrifice you're basically aiding and abetting the eventual destruction of Thedas.