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#51
wolfhowwl

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The way siding with the mages played out, I'd be much more satisfied with it if the combat encounters before Orsino snapped was designed in such a way that the player would feel overwhelmed as well. Because as it was, it felt like we were winning. Such as when the Hawke family gets swarmed by darkspawn, then a cut-scene interrupts in the middle of the fighting. Like that, only with templars instead of darkspawn. Having Orsino not snap when you side with the mages would also be a viable alternative, but fighting Meredith regardless makes sense to me.

 

It's slightly better than Orsino as it at least had an attempt at justification with the plot device idol but mind control/corruption is almost always lame and this time wasn't an exception. It's a convenient shortcut for weak writers.

 

Like with Orsino, it undercuts the already very weak payoff for choices in DA II and is also poor writing in a game that was ostensibly trying to be more human and political in a move away from a completely black and white conflict like with the Darkspawn.



#52
Dabrikishaw

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Equipping my companions with different armor.



#53
Dean_the_Young

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It's slightly better than Orsino as it at least had an attempt at justification with the plot device idol but mind control/corruption is almost always lame and this time wasn't an exception. It's a convenient shortcut for weak writers.

 

Like with Orsino, it undercuts the already very weak payoff for choices in DA II and is also poor writing in a game that was ostensibly trying to be more human and political in a move away from a completely black and white conflict like with the Darkspawn.

 

I agree. The worst part of any mind-control gambit is that it both removes personal responsibility for any crime from the part of the perpetrator, while simultaneously deligitimizing any points they might try to make in the view of the player. For the first, it can be blamed on artificial insanity. For the second- well, if you already don't like the point, clearly it's insanity.

 

 

More to the point, artificial insanity is a crutch that isn't even needed. Rather than being a lunatic with a real problem, she could be a hardliner with a real conspiracy on her hands. Likewise, I thought the Orisino reveal of supporting Quintin was a bit ham-fisted (and selectively revealed): it came far too late to have any significant impact. It helped turn both characters into caricatures, when they could have been simply sane but irreconcilable.

 

 

In that hypothetical alternative world...

 

Rather than treat the Circle Mages as the innocents while evil foreign mages prowled the streets, I think it would have worked better had there been a real and acknowledged conspiracy within the Circle itself that was seeking to get mages out and instigate a political revolt against Meredith. Rather than just Tevinter agitators or apostates in the streets, a real actual coven or conspiracy acting within the Circle working for the same revolt. Meredith's emergency powers become the basis for the cabal to try and instigate a political revolt against the Templars which justifies Meredith refusing to give up power when a maleficar cabal (including possible blood mages) is playing the disatisfied nobles.

 

Meredith without the sword excuse and degradation would be pretty fine in its own, especially if she treated the problem as a military one requiring an uncompromising stance. Rather than pointless lockdowns and illegal tranquility and executions, she could instead be effectively declaring a state of emergency within the Circle and city as violence is spreading. She can still be held responsible for the conflict (her initial holding of power being the initial political dispute, her hardline attitude inflaming tensions, her crackdowns pushing more mages to support the cabal) without being insane.

 

Orisino... his flaw should shift from the Quintin issue to a more openly addressed issue of being a poor and unfit leader for the mages. He opposes Meredith in the name of all mages, but his sin would be that he really doesn't try to keep the mages in line or stop the cabal. He's an enabler, rather than being complicit, but his obstruction and defense of even clearly guilty mages is creating more and more problems as the defenses and checks of the mage-templar divide are becoming naked legalistic shields for the cabal, and so Meredith is gradually tearing them down. Orisino should be the sort of First Enchanter who is basically a mob lawyer, using the law to prevent justice and the apprehension of real criminals.

 

 

If you wanted to have a pre-climax/lead-up to the Anders explosion of The Last Straw, you could even have last story mission (and false climax of the arc) be a mission to root out the cabal (in hopes of resolving the tensions) that finds evidence of a blood magic mind control plot against Meredith. Meredith's increasingly uncompromising extremity is a consequence of mind control attempts intended to either mitigate Meredith's uncompromising nature, or to increase her hostiliy towards mages to spur tensions. The cabal is coy about which it was, but letters indicate they have been counting on Orisino's interference to conduct their operations.

 

Thus comes a moral choice, and seeming lead-in to a big decision. Do you give the evidence to Orisino or Meredith? Orisino would hide the part about the cabal relying on him, but would use the evidence to undermine Meredith by insinuating that her paranoia and power grabs were a result of blood magic tampering, and that she is too compromised to remain Knight Commander. Meredith would cast the blood magic attempt as a failed attempt to deter her from her course, and use the letters to try and remove Orisino from his position as First Enchanter and enact Templar-only emergency rule of the Circle. Whichever side you choose cues the fight that starts the scene, and the confrontation at the steps of the Chantry as neither will let the other reveal their information to Elthina.

 

Cue Anders, the wildcard who blows up the last moral authority figure, and the confrontation. Meredith is convinced the Circle is corrupt beyond salvage (a position the player has more reason to agree with) and calls for annullment. Orisino recognizes that the Circle is corrupt, but doesn't intend to let Meredith punish them all regardless.

 

Same delimma, different angle of approach. Meredith comes off as a bit more understandable, since she's less insane, but Orisino is still reasonable if less sympathetic as a not-so-innocent victim.


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#54
gottaloveme

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Jo Wyatt


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#55
Cat Lance

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I would have liked to see any personality growth that took place within a friendship or rivalry actually manifest elsewhere. Specifically within party dialogues. It killed me every time Fenris opened his mouth at Merrill in the third act. I wanted to punch him in the face so hard. It made the relationship feel so dysfunctional.

#56
Xilizhra

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I agree. The worst part of any mind-control gambit is that it both removes personal responsibility for any crime from the part of the perpetrator, while simultaneously deligitimizing any points they might try to make in the view of the player. For the first, it can be blamed on artificial insanity. For the second- well, if you already don't like the point, clearly it's insanity.

 

 

More to the point, artificial insanity is a crutch that isn't even needed. Rather than being a lunatic with a real problem, she could be a hardliner with a real conspiracy on her hands. Likewise, I thought the Orisino reveal of supporting Quintin was a bit ham-fisted (and selectively revealed): it came far too late to have any significant impact. It helped turn both characters into caricatures, when they could have been simply sane but irreconcilable.

 

 

In that hypothetical alternative world...

 

Rather than treat the Circle Mages as the innocents while evil foreign mages prowled the streets, I think it would have worked better had there been a real and acknowledged conspiracy within the Circle itself that was seeking to get mages out and instigate a political revolt against Meredith. Rather than just Tevinter agitators or apostates in the streets, a real actual coven or conspiracy acting within the Circle working for the same revolt. Meredith's emergency powers become the basis for the cabal to try and instigate a political revolt against the Templars which justifies Meredith refusing to give up power when a maleficar cabal (including possible blood mages) is playing the disatisfied nobles.

 

Meredith without the sword excuse and degradation would be pretty fine in its own, especially if she treated the problem as a military one requiring an uncompromising stance. Rather than pointless lockdowns and illegal tranquility and executions, she could instead be effectively declaring a state of emergency within the Circle and city as violence is spreading. She can still be held responsible for the conflict (her initial holding of power being the initial political dispute, her hardline attitude inflaming tensions, her crackdowns pushing more mages to support the cabal) without being insane.

 

Orisino... his flaw should shift from the Quintin issue to a more openly addressed issue of being a poor and unfit leader for the mages. He opposes Meredith in the name of all mages, but his sin would be that he really doesn't try to keep the mages in line or stop the cabal. He's an enabler, rather than being complicit, but his obstruction and defense of even clearly guilty mages is creating more and more problems as the defenses and checks of the mage-templar divide are becoming naked legalistic shields for the cabal, and so Meredith is gradually tearing them down. Orisino should be the sort of First Enchanter who is basically a mob lawyer, using the law to prevent justice and the apprehension of real criminals.

 

 

If you wanted to have a pre-climax/lead-up to the Anders explosion of The Last Straw, you could even have last story mission (and false climax of the arc) be a mission to root out the cabal (in hopes of resolving the tensions) that finds evidence of a blood magic mind control plot against Meredith. Meredith's increasingly uncompromising extremity is a consequence of mind control attempts intended to either mitigate Meredith's uncompromising nature, or to increase her hostiliy towards mages to spur tensions. The cabal is coy about which it was, but letters indicate they have been counting on Orisino's interference to conduct their operations.

 

Thus comes a moral choice, and seeming lead-in to a big decision. Do you give the evidence to Orisino or Meredith? Orisino would hide the part about the cabal relying on him, but would use the evidence to undermine Meredith by insinuating that her paranoia and power grabs were a result of blood magic tampering, and that she is too compromised to remain Knight Commander. Meredith would cast the blood magic attempt as a failed attempt to deter her from her course, and use the letters to try and remove Orisino from his position as First Enchanter and enact Templar-only emergency rule of the Circle. Whichever side you choose cues the fight that starts the scene, and the confrontation at the steps of the Chantry as neither will let the other reveal their information to Elthina.

 

Cue Anders, the wildcard who blows up the last moral authority figure, and the confrontation. Meredith is convinced the Circle is corrupt beyond salvage (a position the player has more reason to agree with) and calls for annullment. Orisino recognizes that the Circle is corrupt, but doesn't intend to let Meredith punish them all regardless.

 

Same delimma, different angle of approach. Meredith comes off as a bit more understandable, since she's less insane, but Orisino is still reasonable if less sympathetic as a not-so-innocent victim.

Hmmm... interesting, but I don't find it wholly necessary. I think that both characters could remain more or less unchanged from their current states up until the end, if you just remove the reveals about the sword and Quentin.

 

As for what I would change, it'd definitely be Orsino's death. Preferably the Quentin issue as well, as it was obfuscatory and meaningless.



#57
Ellyria

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1) Either letting Sebastian kill Anders at the end (like the Loghain/Alistair thing), or saying you'll give Anders a public execution after the end game instead of just murder knifing him which would hopefully appease Sebby and have him stay in the party.

 

2) Turning in Anders to Cullen for real instead of what we got.

 

3) Not tying all friend/rival dialogue to mage/templar/etc beliefs. (Pro-Mage Hawke who just happens to rival Anders for completely different reasons is constantly accused of being a Meredith fangirl/boy? Mage Hawke who doesn't like slavers is a mage hater according to friend Fenris? My head! It hurts!)

 

4) Choosing which sibling lives in the prologue.

 

5) A full Sebastian romance or just not one at all instead of a barely half one. (preferably the former)

 

6) Equipping gear on our companions even if they keep their iconic look. (JRPGs do it all the time!)

 

7) Having a third option to side with neither the mages or templars and instead help the guards keep the city safe. You'd probably end up fighting both sides anyway and at least fighting both Meredith and Orsino would make sense.

 

And I'm sure there's tons more nitpicky things I could say. :)


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#58
Sundance31us

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If I could change one thing it would be that my Warden Commander could destroy Justice in Awakenings.


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#59
congokong

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3) Not tying all friend/rival dialogue to mage/templar/etc beliefs. (Pro-Mage Hawke who just happens to rival Anders for completely different reasons is constantly accused of being a Meredith fangirl/boy? Mage Hawke who doesn't like slavers is a mage hater according to friend Fenris? My head! It hurts!)

 

 

I got that situation with Anders because of earning 50 rivalry from him during Night Terrors. After that gifts, stopping him from killing innocent mages, etc. just kept adding rivalry.

 

As for Fenris, without severe meta-gaming it's very difficult to get Fenris to max friendship as a pro-mage character. The game makes it so every single magic situation results in rivalry instead of friendship with him when you support magic. Hence, it's safe to assume if at high friendship that you are anti-mage. The points in slaver topics pale in comparison to those on magic.



#60
congokong

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If I could change one thing it would be that my Warden Commander could destroy Justice in Awakenings.

 

Bioware would just bring him back anyway if needed for the plot like Leliana and Anders.



#61
Sundance31us

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Bioware would just bring him back anyway if needed for the plot like Leliana and Anders.

 

The DA team would bring him back and the ME team would create a substitute or have Liara take his place. Though I shudder to think what Anders would be like if he were possessed by Liara. :blink:



#62
MagicalMaster

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As for Fenris, without severe meta-gaming it's very difficult to get Fenris to max friendship as a pro-mage character. The game makes it so every single magic situation results in rivalry instead of friendship with him when you support magic. Hence, it's safe to assume if at high friendship that you are anti-mage. The points in slaver topics pale in comparison to those on magic.

 

It's not that difficult if you don't actually use Fenris.  Think I maxed his friendship like halfway through act 2 on my pro mage rogue from dragging him out for a few specific slaver things and ignoring him otherwise.



#63
Elhanan

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Not for certain, but having an easier way to befriend, manipulate, coerce, etc Isabela to stick around for the Qunari festivities would have been nice.

So would a more romantic opportunity with Aveline. Being 'Just Friended' in RL is bad enough, but in my own fantasy game???

:D

#64
congokong

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It's not that difficult if you don't actually use Fenris.  Think I maxed his friendship like halfway through act 2 on my pro mage rogue from dragging him out for a few specific slaver things and ignoring him otherwise.

"As for Fenris, without severe meta-gaming it's very difficult to get Fenris to max friendship as a pro-mage character."



#65
Tielis

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It would be for EA to fix the Zevran romance import bug.  Yes, I'm still extremely pissed about that.



#66
MagicalMaster

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"As for Fenris, without severe meta-gaming it's very difficult to get Fenris to max friendship as a pro-mage character."

 

How is not wanting to use him in general and only bringing him along for anti-slaving stuff severe meta-gaming?

 

If you're talking constantly about swapping Fenris in and out of the party then sure, I get what you're saying, but "I generally don't want even to use him but I'll bring him for his personal quests and anti-slaving stuff" is not severe meta-gaming.



#67
Ellyria

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How is not wanting to use him in general and only bringing him along for anti-slaving stuff severe meta-gaming?

 

If you're talking constantly about swapping Fenris in and out of the party then sure, I get what you're saying, but "I generally don't want even to use him but I'll bring him for his personal quests and anti-slaving stuff" is not severe meta-gaming.

 

Agreed. I do the same thing with Merrill all the time; never use her except for her personal quests. I max out her friendship every time.



#68
congokong

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How is not wanting to use him in general and only bringing him along for anti-slaving stuff severe meta-gaming?

 

If you're talking constantly about swapping Fenris in and out of the party then sure, I get what you're saying, but "I generally don't want even to use him but I'll bring him for his personal quests and anti-slaving stuff" is not severe meta-gaming.

Well, for my first 3 playthroughs I tried to get him to either max friendship or rivalry but couldn't do it. I remember once I finally managed to get his first Questioning Beliefs quest after Danarius was already dead; very strange since it was supposed to be done in Act 2. Then I meta-gamed. Lucky you that you pulled it off so easily.

 

 

I'd say something that really needed changing, or rather fixing, was the haste spell bug. Seriously, magic resistance applying to buff spells is such a common bug in gaming.



#69
KaiserShep

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I found maxing out Fenris' friendship in a pro-mage playthrough to be pretty easy. In just a few quests you can yield quite a lot of points, not to mention the two gifts that he can receive (though you have to find these).



#70
Warden Commander Aeducan

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I would change Anders back to his old self in Awakening. I miss him being a dryly sarcastic, charming, happy go lucky man but now he's weepy, angsty, over dramatic, melodramatic, hypocritical person. I understand if the character can change over time, but I can't stand with hypocrite's nature  or over dramatic from him.

I can sympathize with the Mages and their plight, hell I even agree and support more freedom for the Mages but seriously Anders...will you shut up about it already! Also stop forcing people to agree with your belief!


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#71
Stuff

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I would change Anders back to his old self in Awakening. I miss him being a dryly sarcastic, charming, happy go lucky man but now he's weepy, angsty, over dramatic, melodramatic, hypocritical person. I understand if the character can change over time, but I can't stand with hypocrite's nature  or over dramatic from him.

 

I can sympathize with the Mages and their plight, hell I even agree and support more freedom for the Mages but seriously Anders...will you shut up about it already! Also stop forcing people to agree with your belief!

He's practically an Abomination in this game, dude. He's not exactly the shiniest example of self control. It's amazing that he can function at all.



#72
frostajulie

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DAI got me excited enough to replay this game.  I would change 6 things because I am too greedy to pick just 1- some of which have already been mentioned.

 

1. Have the option to invite Gamlen to move in from act 2 onward. 

 

2. If I side with Anders and Sebastian is there and turns on me if I am a rogue I want to impale his face with a thrown murderknife like in the Feynriel rescue quest from Act 1.  Cant march an army on me if your dead. Also kill him as a warrior or mage, but I did just beat the game with a rogue.

 

3. Varric romance.

 

4. Choose your surviving sibling

 

5. If I play as a mage there should be some way to hide it during conflict, it is jarring to play as a mage and rescue templars and they don't do anything.  This is unfortunate because except for this dreadful immersion breaking experience it is extremely satisfying to play DA2 as a mage.

 

6. Even if I had to pay for it as DLC later and I know thats a bad precedent, I want map and world variety the recycled maps were dreadful and boring for replayability.

 

7. Renegade interrupts when Anders and Fenris go off on Merrill I would like to verbally eviscerate them both and perhaps beat them up in that interrupt.



#73
Ozzy

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The chance to only change one thing?

 

The development time the game received would be it then. 



#74
Guest_Trust_*

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Merrill maturing a lot more throughout the years. She's adorable, but some things are seriously overdone.



#75
Dova

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Probably like a lot said: Anders. But it's not the typical "blowing up the Chantry and plunging the world into war" deal.

It's when he's romanced and you have the option to talk him out of it and he agrees he can reverse what he's done but he doesn't like what's the point of this shenanigans then?

*mumbles*  <_<