207 réponses à ce sujet

[Probe Away]

Every now and then someone still makes a post saying how stupid the Reapers' motives were in ME3, and these posts seem to get lazier and more dismissive as time goes by. For instance, I read a post yesterday that summarized the Reapers' goal as "to kill all organics so that they don't kill themselves". Like many such posts, this is more than just a gross oversimplification; it's downright incorrect.

Let's start from the basics:

1. The Reapers were created to preserve organic life at all costs.

2. The greatest perceived threat to organic life (in the view of the Leviathans and therefore the Reapers) is the creation and rebellion of synthetic life.

Assuming I have summarized those points properly, the Reapers have clearly deduced that:

3. The extinction of a few species every 50,000 years is acceptable, as long as the majority of organic life continues.

4. The best way to prevent the rise of synthetic life is to ensure no species advances to the point of mass-producing AIs (although they were a few hundred years too late in this cycle).

If you add those points together you get a philosophy whereby sentient organic species can be left to their own devices for millennia, allowing them to thrive and leave their own mark on the galaxy, until they advance too far and the Reapers intervene.

Sure, from a human perspective it seems counter-intuitive to take life in order to preserve it. In fact from memory this is touched on in Shepard's confrontation with Starchild. However, from a cold, calculating, mechanical view it has a certain morbid logic. Sacrifice a handful of species every 50,000 years to protect the rest from their 'inevitable' creations.

To be clear, I'm not defending Bioware's decision to go down this path from a narrative or thematic perspective. It's not particularly original (e.g. I, Robot) and there are arguably some inconsistencies created between ME3 and the first two games purely by virtue of that decision. I just get sick of people dismissing the Reapers' motives out of hand.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

I'll agree with this to an extent. The endings as a whole (imo) are idiotic, but it's not simply a result of the Reapers' motives.

 

To start with, past ME1 the Mass Effect series begins to emphasize the point that Organics and Synthetics are not completely different and we can cooperate, but stumbles across the finish line by reintroducing the Organics vs. Synthetics scenario.

 

Additionally Synthetics vs. Organics, especially past ME1, was never treated as the central theme of the work. The player engages in conflicts that have absolutely nothing to do with Synthetics, period. This is why I thought a far more comprehensible motive for the Catalyst would have been to prevent Galactic Destruction, period. It's something that applies to every conflict the player engages in (Synthetic, Organic, etc) throughout the series and still keeps the Reapers' central motive intact. Instead of wanting to prevent a technological singularity, the Reapers' goals are to prevent the acquisition of any sufficiently advanced weapon that could annihilate the galaxy, if lesser species are allowed to develop uninterrupted. 

[CptFalconPunch]

The reapers motives aren't illogical in the sense that logic isn't always logical.

 

Thats not the problem, the real problem was how it dismissed everything that happened throughout the trilogy.

 

It makes sense in itself but not in the context of the ME series. Including ME3.

[Obadiah]

@Probe Away
Preach!

[TopTrog]

I agree, the Reaper´s motives as described in ME3 are not stupid at all. On the contrary, I liked the use of their motive to "preserve organic life" quite a bit.

 

Equating "preservation of life" with "preservation of genetic heritage" is an extreme form of scientific reductionism. It is basically fulfilling a plausible purpose of life according to evolutionary theory (which is the preservation of the genes as the units being replicated). And it is doing so without requiring the trouble of having actual living beings around by just storing the information in Reaper form. And by doing so before mass-produced AI can wipe out heir creators without saving the genetic information (and possibly going on to actively prevent the evolution of new sentient organic beings), from this point of view there is no extinction of life at all, but merely preservation of its central part (genetic information), while ensuring that evolution can start over again.

 

That is indeed a logical consequence, if extreme reductionism is applied to the task of "saving organic beings from being destroyed (and their genetic heritage lost) by their AI creations". It of course completely misses the point about what is valuable about life as we see it, so it is not stupid at all to make this a line of reasoning used by a completely alien form of intelligence. Interestingly, both EDI and Legion were shown to be significantly more advanced in this regard at the end of ME3 than the Reapers, as they made efforts to understand the reasoning from the "organics" point of view instead of simply dismissing it as irrelevant.

 

I thought the Catalyst for all its power still did not get it at the end - suggesting synthesis as the only way to resolve the conflict by merging the two types of life. There was already ample evidence around for the player from EDI and the Geth that co-existence of organics and AI is very much possible, if understanding is sufficiently advanced.    

[DoomsdayDevice]

4. The best way to prevent the rise of synthetic life is to ensure no species advances to the point of mass-producing AIs (although they were a few hundred years too late in this cycle).

 

They ensure this by leaving behind their own technology so we develop along the paths they desire... wait, how is this not silly again?

 

If they wanted to make sure we didn't develop synthetics, why uplift our tech level with mass effect technology? Why not let cavemen be cavemen, so to speak?

[Obadiah]

@TopTrog
We see the Geth and EDI develop - but what happens as they continue to do so? Will they still hold dear to the same values as we do? Will we as we continue to develop? I think the the Catalyst's point of view represents a perspective that has manifested as its development has far exceeded our own.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

@Probe Away
Preach!

 

^ This!!

 

And if you don't mind me piggy-backing on your OP here: http://forum.bioware...roy/?p=16739855.

[TopTrog]

@TopTrog
We see the Geth and EDI develop - what happens when they continue to do so? Will they still hold to dear to the same values as we do? Will we as we continue to develop? I think the the Catalyst's point of view represents a perspective that has far exceeded our own.

Good points, there are certainly lots of possible consequences to ponder there :-). Quite possibly the very fact that the Catalyst even offers "destroy" as a possibility when it could just as easily have disposed of Shepard and gone on with the "tried and true" cycle (or just maybe have pushed him into the beam to effect synthesis ?) shows even more "advanced-ness" when it comes to this issue.

 

Besides its function as a narrative device to let the player decide the outcome, I thought the choices offered were interesting, all of them offering opportunity and danger at the same time.    

[Bardox9]

I tend to think of the Reapers as Ark's of past civilizations. Each Reaper, I assume, is a data trove of past cycle's civilizations. I think that within each Reaper is a back up of all information on a particular cycle along with genetic samples, potentially, for cloning someday. It is preserving life in the same way it would preserve anything else. Pack it away in a container to be unpacked at a later date.

 

A series of cloning to replace the numbers of a harvest race, memory imprints like what Okeer did to his clones, and some building materials to reconstruct what was destroyed and you revive a dead race. Logical from an A.I.'s perspective.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Mass Effect: The video game where you played the villain unless you chose Synthesis.

[Bardox9]

Mass Effect: The video game where you played the villain unless you chose Synthesis.

If this is what you believe then you should not try to stop Saren since Synthesis (or a version of it) was his goal.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

If this is what you believe then you should not try to stop Saren since Synthesis (or a version of it) was his goal.

 

You need to better recognize a troll post. 

[Probe Away]

They ensure this by leaving behind their own technology so we develop along the paths they desire... wait, how is this not silly again?

If they wanted to make sure we didn't develop synthetics, why uplift our tech level with mass effect technology? Why not let cavemen be cavemen, so to speak?

They didn't leave the relays etc behind to uplift anyone, they left them there to ensure that species advance along a predictable path, making the harvest easier.

Cavemen eventually evolve their own technology.

[Bardox9]

You need to better recognize a troll post. 

I did. Just highlighting the sentiment and pointing out it's flaw. Despite all reason, some still think Synthesis to be the a good choice.

[shepskisaac]

It's just another play at Asimov's "we need to hurt you to save you" AI theme, been done many times in sci-fi. Horribly presented in the original ending, but nothing new or 'xzibit meme'.

[Kabooooom]

An people thought I was mad for thinking genocide was logical.

Everything has qualifiers. It IS logical, provided certain situations. The world isn't all sunshine and puppies and morality isn't black and white, but shades of gray.

[Farangbaa]

If this is what you believe then you should not try to stop Saren since Synthesis (or a version of it) was his goal.

 

With the difference that Saren was indoctrinated, so he couldn't synthesise even if he wanted to. (Just like TIM couldn't control)

[shodiswe]

The Reapers are like the Spanish inquisition, be a Reaper or get cleansed/converted. They follow the holy Church of the Catalyst.

It's a valid approach to ones existance. Even if most people who arn't part of their exclusive club percives them as irredemably evil and tyrranical.

[AlexMBrennan]

They ensure this by leaving behind their own technology so we develop along the paths they desire... wait, how is this not silly again?

This allows you to predict exactly what will happen, whereas no one would know what they'd do without it (e.g. If I give you a car then I can estimate how long you will take to get somewhere whilst without a car you might come up with a anything from a jetfighter to riding a horse).

[KaiserShep]

50 shades of gray

 

The reapers are crappy Twilight fanfic? This is indeed a disturbing universe.

[Mcfly616]

Yeah....they make a bit of sense. Many just can't stand it is all.

[angol fear]

The motive isn't supposed to be original (If you seek originality you will never find it, it only exist in structures/ forms not in themes). Bioware know their ending is based on Asimov's writings (They have shown that they know enough of the masterpieces and popular work of sciences fiction).

Their motive can be easily understood.