207 réponses à ce sujet

[Obadiah]

@78stonewobble
I think the idea that you cannot address a problem in this galaxy because you're not addressing it on an intergalactic scale, not really compelling.

[Obadiah]

Wasn't the whole point of synthesis to combine organic and synthetic? So that neither is inherently better than the other.

Yes and no. I have a possible interpretation on what the Catalyst wanted to accomplish with Synthesis - essentially, the "new DNA" formed from completely integrating Organics with technology provides the framework for synthetic life to exist with organics life within the same body. This is the combination of Synthetic and Organic life that the Catalyst spoke of. The technology upgrade is not optional; the symbiotic coexistence within one body is optional with the consent of both entities. This provides the improvements to Organics that they use technology to achieve, and complete understanding of Organics to Synthetics. This is the Catalyst's "connection" it thinks is needed.

I explained it here.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

If any organics were inflicting an equivalent amount of loss of life (organic or AI) to what the reapers are doing, that AI would be right to choose destroy. 

 

The exception being, offcourse, if conflict was only limited to the galaxy, but blastwave reaches the entire universe. In that case the loss of life might be larger from choosing destroy and it's better to give up on one galaxy, than to give up on 100.000.000.000 (or an infinite number) galaxies worth of life. 

 

The switching point is around 40.000-50.000 galaxies affected. 

 

What? Where does it say the blast wave reaches the entire universe? Huh? You're kidding me. The entire story was limited to the Milky Way Galaxy. The blast wave only affects the Milky Way. 

[dreamgazer]

I wonder what mordin will say to this thread.

 

"Too many variables."

[Ymladdych]

Um... that's a 1% suicide rate, not a 1% jump in the suicide rate.

I don't know what a reasonable suicide rate would be. What percentage of new paraplegics commit suicide? I'd ask about quadriplegics, but obviously they face certain difficulties in this regard.

Sorry, my phrasing was bad. I meant that it would increase the rate by 1 percentage point. So if the baseline was 2% and there weren't other factors involved, the rate would go to 3%.

I put it at 1% based on PTSD data: the types of trauma that cause the condition; its prevalence in the general population vs. its estimated rate amongst veterans and rape victims; the highest predictors for suicide risk (it's not physical ailments) and how they correlate to PTSD affective symptoms. Also, given the nature of Synthesis and the context of the Reaper war, it's a given that a large chunk of people would have serious psychological issues about what's been done to them.

***Edit*** Ugh! The quote feature hates me.

[Obadiah]

What? Where does it say the blast wave reaches the entire universe? Huh? You're kidding me. The entire story was limited to the Milky Way Galaxy. The blast wave only affects the Milky Way.

Ok, so:
- I said that Destroy was the Organics doing to AI what the Catalyst said AI would do to Organics
- and then 78stonewobble said the Reaper's solution doesn't cover the entire universe so all AI really aren't Destroyed,
- and then I postulated that the rationale for the decision to fire Destroy would not change if the war was intergalactic blast wave covered the entire universe,
- and then 78 said maybe, but the numbers don't calculate for losses vs saved so it wouldn't be logical for an AI to make that decision.

...I think.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Too many numbers to think about...... goes and makes trance music.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Batarians are pretty much gone.

[SporkFu]

Yes and no. I have a possible interpretation on what the Catalyst wanted to accomplish with Synthesis - essentially, the "new DNA" formed from completely integrating Organics with technology provides the framework for synthetic life to exist with organics life within the same body. This is the combination of Synthetic and Organic life that the Catalyst spoke of. The technology upgrade is not optional; the symbiotic coexistence within one body is optional with the consent of both entities. This provides the improvements to Organics that they use technology to achieve, and complete understanding of Organics to Synthetics. This is the Catalyst's "connection" it thinks is needed.

I explained it here.

Interesting theory. I guess we won't know which way Bio's gonna go forward for a little while yet. 

[78stonewobble]

@78stonewobble
I think the idea that you cannot address a problem in this galaxy because you're not addressing it on an intergalactic scale, not really compelling.

 

I didn't say that, but I am saying that it is silly to try to protect organics from AI, by stopping development of organics, only in a poststamp sized portion of the world.

 

Especially so, considering that FTL is possible and that AI have lifespans in excess of 2 billion years. Considering that, the milky way is within reach of a universe around 20000 times larger than the known one. 

 

It's like preventing ants in your house by spraying a random square milimetre with poison. NOT very efficient...  even if there was an ant there. 

 

You might argue that no extra galactic AI has turned up and wiped out the reapers and all organic life in 2 billion years so far, but that isn't really that impressive considering life might endure from 2.000 billion years to 10.000 billion years. The reapers have only succeeded so far, in their reason for existence, for 0,02 percent of the large time period and in 0,0000000001 percent of the universe.  

[78stonewobble]

Ok, so:
1. - I said that Destroy was the Organics doing to AI what the Catalyst said AI would do to Organics
2. - and then 78stonewobble said the Reaper's solution doesn't cover the entire universe so all AI really aren't Destroyed,
3. - and then I postulated that the rationale for the decision to fire Destroy would not change if the war was intergalactic blast wave covered the entire universe,
4. - and then 78 said maybe, but the numbers don't calculate for losses vs saved so it wouldn't be logical for an AI to make that decision.

...I think.

 

1.

You argued that the killing of all AI in the milky way is the same as killing off ALL AI in the remaining 99,999999999 percent of the universe. 

You indirectly argued that the killing of all AI in the milky way is the same as wanting to kill off ALL AI in the remaining 99,999999999 of the universe. 

 

2. I corrected your mistakes.

The milkyway does not encompass everything... Period.  

 

And having to kill all the AI in the milky way, to accomplish a specific goal, is not an example of universal genocidal wishes or actions. 

 

We are fighting the reapers to stop the reapers. We are not fighting the war against the reapers with the secret objective of wiping out ie. all AI. As evidenced by the fact that no blue ending involved shepard using the reapers to wipe out the geth anyway and after that is done, sending the reapers to all other galaxies to wipe out artificial life. Which would be necessary to fullfill the rationale of wanting to kill ALL AI anywhere. 

 

Thus destroy and loss of the geth IS collateral damage or necessary, but acceptable, casualties in times of war. 

 

3. Entirely dependent on your rationale or objective in fighting the reapers. If it is to stop the reapers at any and all costs, then yes, you would still pull the trigger. However, if your objective is to minimise loss of life and make no distinction between AI and organic life. Then there is a clear point where it becomes counter productive to use a destroy option. 

 

4. I describe where the objective of saving lives means that you should not to pull the trigger on destroy. It's where the action of destroy will cost more lives, due to the range of the blastwave across the universe, than it will save in the milky way. 

 

You offered one possible rationale for picking destroy for shepard, out of many, and, without any evidence to support that rationale as most likely, extrapolated this to mean that a hypothetical AI in the same situation would use exactly the same rationale. 

[78stonewobble]

What? Where does it say the blast wave reaches the entire universe? Huh? You're kidding me. The entire story was limited to the Milky Way Galaxy. The blast wave only affects the Milky Way. 

 

It was a reply to a posited scenario, in which the blast wave did just that. 

 

Obviously the blast wave does not do so ingame. Meaning we still have to handwave allmost everything in the universe as... well... hmm ... irrelevant. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

"Too many variables."

 

"Implications unpleasant."

[KaiserShep]

If there's anything I learned from mass effect, genocide bares no consequences.

 

In fairness, these genocides are occurring in the middle of an extermination where just about everyone may be dead anyway. With the 300K batarians that die on Aratoht, if Shepard just destroyed that relay because it would be hilarious, then I can see why getting away with it would be dumb as hell.

[Farangbaa]

In fairness, these genocides are occurring in the middle of an extermination where just about everyone may be dead anyway. With the 300K batarians that die on Aratoht, if Shepard just destroyed that relay because it would be hilarious, then I can see why getting away with it would be dumb as hell.

 

Two words: Rachni Queen. 

 

Which is kinda funny. People kill her without even the slightest feeling of guilt. But Synthesis? Oh nooooooo, that's unethical.

[CDTheBookMan]

Their motives are easy: Control.  Bring order to chaos = control.  That's what this was all about.  Once again, the ending may not be what we wanted, but it does seem fitting.  The Reapers tried to control everything, then Shepard finds a way to control their fate with a simple decision.  As Shepard said: "You're a machine and machines can be broken."

[78stonewobble]

Two words: Rachni Queen. 

 

Which is kinda funny. People kill her without even the slightest feeling of guilt. But Synthesis? Oh nooooooo, that's unethical.

 

The same people say both? That does seem silly. 

[KaiserShep]

Two words: Rachni Queen. 

 

Which is kinda funny. People kill her without even the slightest feeling of guilt. But Synthesis? Oh nooooooo, that's unethical.

 

I forgot about that one. I couldn't do this with my spacer war hero, but I figured that my ruthless colonist was just the right one to basically destroy anything and everything alien as possible, and I admit that I felt a bit dirty after doing this, especially when the queen desperately tries to get the asari commando thrall to take the controls and Shepard just sweeps her aside. Like, damn dude, those batarians broke you!

[Farangbaa]

I forgot about that one. I couldn't do this with my spacer war hero, but I figured that my ruthless colonist was just the right one to basically destroy anything and everything alien as possible, and I admit that I felt a bit dirty after doing this, especially when the queen desperately tries to get the asari commando thrall to take the controls and Shepard just sweeps her aside. Like, damn dude, those batarians broke you!

 

I killed her on my last run as well, not because of destroying anything alien or something like that, but to control the situation. For the same reason Wrex was killed and the genophage sabotaged.

 

Obviously that Shepard ended picking up control. 

 

The scene itself is tragic though.

[Farangbaa]

The same people say both? That does seem silly. 

 

It's a non discussion in my book anyway. Synthesis doesn't kill anyone or anything, it adds to everything.

 

That's about as unethical as demanding companies with profits in the billions to invest in the local population/area.

 

Oh wait, some people do see that as unethical.  

[KaiserShep]

I killed her on my last run as well, not because of destroying anything alien or something like that, but to control the situation. For the same reason Wrex was killed and the genophage sabotaged.

 

Obviously that Shepard ended picking up control. 

 

The scene itself is tragic though.

 

It does spice things up though, so this is my Through The Console Darkly alternate reality, betraying Wrex in ME3 after shooting Mordin in the back, getting Renegade Control, the works.

[Vortex13]

I forgot about that one. I couldn't do this with my spacer war hero, but I figured that my ruthless colonist was just the right one to basically destroy anything and everything alien as possible, and I admit that I felt a bit dirty after doing this, especially when the queen desperately tries to get the asari commando thrall to take the controls and Shepard just sweeps her aside. Like, damn dude, those batarians broke you!

 

I only killed the Queen once with my Earthborn, Renegade Shepard. I felt the same way after killing her, and have never been able to bring myself to pick that choice again in subsequent playthroughs, its just too depressing. 

 

Though, I always did wonder why Shepard had to choose one way or the other in that situation, I mean if Shepard was unsure of what to do, or if s/he didn't want to let out a potentially dangerous alien species loose, but didn't want to commit genocide, why wasn't there an option to leave the Queen in her cage and let the Council decide?

[Farangbaa]

I only killed the Queen once with my Earthborn, Renegade Shepard. I felt the same way after killing her, and have never been able to bring myself to pick that choice again in subsequent playthroughs, its just too depressing. 

 

Though, I always did wonder why Shepard had to choose one way or the other in that situation, I mean if Shepard was unsure of what to do, or if s/he didn't want to let out a potentially dangerous alien species loose, but didn't want to commit genocide, why wasn't there an option to leave the Queen in her cage and let the Council decide?

 

Because you are Space Jesus. You also have to decide whether to save the Council or not, which for some obscure reason Hacket can't do.